MANCHESTER - 9
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Great news re Metrolink 
....in light of new info on PM maybe its Emirates ?
Seems to be a lot of uncertainty about US carriers in terms of equipment so are they really going to complicate matters further, by identifying the need for another frame, well lets hope so
That said if they do have spare equipment I think there is a lot to be said for adding more frequency on current routes.
I cannot help thinking that if we had more critical mass that would attract more punters. I am sure with LHR there is the
"damn missed that but we can get the next one syndrome"
Manchester does not have that , multiple frequency would really help !
BUT if its not them I would personally prefer Emirates !
I think I said 12 months ago that everything they touch "appears" to turn to Gold so I am pretty sure that they would make it work.
Like Ryanair they generate traffic where it did not previously exist.
Those business passengers that covert Dubai would instantly use a US service if they did business westbound, pretty sure it would pull in a lot of tourists.
It would also add frequency to Dubai in the other direction which I am sure we now need.
Might be well wrong but great news if its somebody prestigious like them or indeed EITIHAD OR SIA all the better.
Personally I'm convinced its a stopover IF its a current operator.
My only continuing frustration is how mush more could Manchester do if these service were really pushed hard here and at the originating point,
CLT being a case in point.
On a them any news on Rouge bookings......
PS Two Thumbs Up in one post, it must be Summer !
....in light of new info on PM maybe its Emirates ?
Seems to be a lot of uncertainty about US carriers in terms of equipment so are they really going to complicate matters further, by identifying the need for another frame, well lets hope so
That said if they do have spare equipment I think there is a lot to be said for adding more frequency on current routes.
I cannot help thinking that if we had more critical mass that would attract more punters. I am sure with LHR there is the
"damn missed that but we can get the next one syndrome"
Manchester does not have that , multiple frequency would really help !
BUT if its not them I would personally prefer Emirates !
I think I said 12 months ago that everything they touch "appears" to turn to Gold so I am pretty sure that they would make it work.
Like Ryanair they generate traffic where it did not previously exist.
Those business passengers that covert Dubai would instantly use a US service if they did business westbound, pretty sure it would pull in a lot of tourists.
It would also add frequency to Dubai in the other direction which I am sure we now need.
Might be well wrong but great news if its somebody prestigious like them or indeed EITIHAD OR SIA all the better.
Personally I'm convinced its a stopover IF its a current operator.
My only continuing frustration is how mush more could Manchester do if these service were really pushed hard here and at the originating point,
CLT being a case in point.
On a them any news on Rouge bookings......
PS Two Thumbs Up in one post, it must be Summer !
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On a separate note has Manchester responded yet to the Davies enquiry ?
Representation was "finally" called for last month in terms of how regional airports like Birmingham, Leeds etc etc would effect capacity.
Given the tsunami of new long haul services since the Commissions first reported I would have thought Manchester could add some highly critical dare I say cryptic observations to the debate !
Representation was "finally" called for last month in terms of how regional airports like Birmingham, Leeds etc etc would effect capacity.
Given the tsunami of new long haul services since the Commissions first reported I would have thought Manchester could add some highly critical dare I say cryptic observations to the debate !
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quoting SHED-ON-A-POLE:
"I wonder if any Metrolink project planners fancy a job in Berlin?"
I think they may be needed at MAN if that rumoured huge redevelopment of T1/T3 goes ahead!
On the theme of the station, do we know when Platform 4 of the main rail network will be completed and in operation? Or is the timing all tied in with the wider Northern Hub project? More trains means another little boost to the airport.
Bagso, I thought it had been established, or at least suggested, somewhere along the line that the much discussed new long haul route was not a transit flight but is a new destination with an existing (daily) airline, which is why focus has been on a US carrier.
edit. not sure why the smile has appeared just there - never mind, good reasons to be cheerful but don't mention the World Cup.
"I wonder if any Metrolink project planners fancy a job in Berlin?"
I think they may be needed at MAN if that rumoured huge redevelopment of T1/T3 goes ahead!
On the theme of the station, do we know when Platform 4 of the main rail network will be completed and in operation? Or is the timing all tied in with the wider Northern Hub project? More trains means another little boost to the airport.
Bagso, I thought it had been established, or at least suggested, somewhere along the line that the much discussed new long haul route was not a transit flight but is a new destination with an existing (daily) airline, which is why focus has been on a US carrier.
edit. not sure why the smile has appeared just there - never mind, good reasons to be cheerful but don't mention the World Cup.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Rail station 4th platform
The rail station 4th platform will lag some way behind the opening of Metrolink (platforms 5 and 6). There is still considerable work to be done on the No.4 trackbed, and to move existing crossover points further down the line to make way for No.4 to tie-in. Capacity of the line going north towards the city is pretty much full, although increased use of electric trains (delivered in the Northern Hub project) may release another path. There will be longer trains of 6 to 8 cars. Plans are in discussion to add another service going south - presently only one per hour to Crewe. Looking at London Midland serving the airport directly from Birmingham or even London.
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Looking at London Midland serving the airport directly from Birmingham or even London.
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Rail services
According to a First TPE source the intention is to extend existing London Midland service to Crewe on to MAN. I am a regular rail commuter to MAN but not an expert in the rail industry, so my posts on this subject come with a certain caveat. It would seem to make sense though, the airport is well-served by rail from Northern England and from Scotland but not so from the Midlands where a good number of MAN's air passengers originate.
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"According to a First TPE source the intention is to extend existing London Midland service to Crewe on to MAN ".
If true this will make Manchester Airport thee best connected airport by rail in the UK by some distance and something that MAG should be promoting !
It is also something Davies should have also focused on but didn't in his deliberation re UK Airport Commission.
If London Midland do extend Crew to the airport it makes connections to Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Stafford, Lichfield etc quite easy improving the airports rail catchment quite impressively.
Ironically Heathrow is one of the worst for majors airports in Europe for public transport "if" you don't live in Central London !
If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.
If true this will make Manchester Airport thee best connected airport by rail in the UK by some distance and something that MAG should be promoting !
It is also something Davies should have also focused on but didn't in his deliberation re UK Airport Commission.
If London Midland do extend Crew to the airport it makes connections to Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Stafford, Lichfield etc quite easy improving the airports rail catchment quite impressively.
Ironically Heathrow is one of the worst for majors airports in Europe for public transport "if" you don't live in Central London !
If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.
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Ironically Heathrow is one of the worst for majors airports in Europe for public transport "if" you don't live in Central London !
If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.
If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.
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Re train services, there have been a couple of unusual ones in the past that proved unsuccessful.
I forget the operator, but there was a Airport - Euston dmu service at very cheap fares (about 15 years ago?) but which wasn't allowed to call at mainline Virgin stations. It stopped at Sandbach for example but not Crewe.
The other was a service to Nottingham via Crewe, Stoke, and Derby which was usually only a 1 coach train. Neither lasted very long.
I assume an extension of the London Midland trains from Crewe would call at some of the Trent Valley stations - Tamworth, Lichfield etc. - but wouldn't go via Birmingham, would they? The alternatives, and I don't know the franchise situations, would be a service via Birmingham to say Bristol, or possibly to South Wales via Crewe, Shrewsbury and Hereford, or simply to route some of the existing services via the airport.
There is of course an hourly local service from Crewe to MAN on Northern Rail, but which involves a change for pax from further south, or they go into Piccadilly and change there.
I guess the extension of the Midland trains makes most sense with perhaps the greatest potential in terms of catchment.
I forget the operator, but there was a Airport - Euston dmu service at very cheap fares (about 15 years ago?) but which wasn't allowed to call at mainline Virgin stations. It stopped at Sandbach for example but not Crewe.
The other was a service to Nottingham via Crewe, Stoke, and Derby which was usually only a 1 coach train. Neither lasted very long.
I assume an extension of the London Midland trains from Crewe would call at some of the Trent Valley stations - Tamworth, Lichfield etc. - but wouldn't go via Birmingham, would they? The alternatives, and I don't know the franchise situations, would be a service via Birmingham to say Bristol, or possibly to South Wales via Crewe, Shrewsbury and Hereford, or simply to route some of the existing services via the airport.
There is of course an hourly local service from Crewe to MAN on Northern Rail, but which involves a change for pax from further south, or they go into Piccadilly and change there.
I guess the extension of the Midland trains makes most sense with perhaps the greatest potential in terms of catchment.
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The problem with the London Midland trains is that they have far more scheduled stops and take almost an hour longer to cover the journey than the Virgin services. They are significantly cheaper, but for most people, specially travelling on business, the saving would not outweigh the extra time an inconvenience.
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The problem with the London Midland trains is that they have far more scheduled stops and take almost an hour longer to cover the journey than the Virgin services
A few train spotters might and just a few on a very tight budget where a near 4 hour journey time could be unimportant -Still quicker than a coach
It IS those intermediate stops along the Trent Valley abandoned by stagecoach (Virgin branded) pendulinos for which direct access to Ringway would be a benefit should they gain open access beyond Crewe
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I'm not missing the point at all, but perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I understand that the local communities need service to the airport but the links are slow and impractical, which is why I drew the analogy with the local services to/from LHR.
The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.
The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.
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MANFOD
This could get rather off topic however i'll try and answer and with reference to previous comments and the LM franchise -North of Rugby they have paths into Birmingham and operate all stopping trains through Trent Valley on WCML.
Local services around Birmingham are operated/co-ordinated by Centro the West Midlands equivalent of TFGM.
They also hold the franchise to operate Birmingham- Lime Street stopping trains.
So at Crewe they have two converging franchises .
Currently they have no authority to run from Crewe towards Manchester as this forms part of the Northern Franchise operation.
However they can apply for what is called open access (True commercial operation with NO subsidies what so ever).
Granting such the regulators would require a detailed business plan and would have to find suitable paths along the line - LM would also have to pay significant charges to Network Rail for those paths.
And yes should such be granted they are likely to be extensions of the Trent Valley services rather than Birmingham operations so as not to impinge on Arriva Cross Country and Virgin traffic rights.
All the convoluted mess that is the modern railway industry !
This could get rather off topic however i'll try and answer and with reference to previous comments and the LM franchise -North of Rugby they have paths into Birmingham and operate all stopping trains through Trent Valley on WCML.
Local services around Birmingham are operated/co-ordinated by Centro the West Midlands equivalent of TFGM.
They also hold the franchise to operate Birmingham- Lime Street stopping trains.
So at Crewe they have two converging franchises .
Currently they have no authority to run from Crewe towards Manchester as this forms part of the Northern Franchise operation.
However they can apply for what is called open access (True commercial operation with NO subsidies what so ever).
Granting such the regulators would require a detailed business plan and would have to find suitable paths along the line - LM would also have to pay significant charges to Network Rail for those paths.
And yes should such be granted they are likely to be extensions of the Trent Valley services rather than Birmingham operations so as not to impinge on Arriva Cross Country and Virgin traffic rights.
All the convoluted mess that is the modern railway industry !
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I'm not missing the point at all, but perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I understand that the local communities need service to the airport but the links are slow and impractical, which is why I drew the analogy with the local services to/from LHR.
The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.
The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.
Agreed local rail connections at Heathrow other than towards town are non existent cepting the many and varied coaching links to Feltham, Woking and Reading and the Carrousel bus service to High Wycombe oh and the 724 Greenline all the way the Harlow all link a multitude of rail lines in many directions
True the cross border Surrey bus services are abysmal - That coz Surrey are cheap stakes and won't/don't contribute to good public transport.
As to the Chilterns well I think living in Wallingford for more than a decade and travelling right across the region to places such as Leighton Buzzard Thame, Missenden, Chesham, Marlow frequently on the train and buses I can sympathise.
Might be a Mancunian but an exile these days in North West London !
As for denigrating LM those services in their rump franchise south of Rugby and Northampton are some of the busiest and profitable commuter routes in the land !
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cepting the many and varied coaching links to Feltham, Woking and Reading and the Carrousel bus service to High Wycombe oh and the 724 Greenline all the way the Harlow all link a multitude of rail lines in many directions
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They are slow, infrequent, and unpunctual. Have you ever, for example, tried the 555 between LHR and Walton-on-Thames, which goes through all the industrial areas and suburbs, stopping at every other lamppost. Just not practical.
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Reference MANFOD's post:
Discontinued Manchester Airport rail-links (southbound) which spring to mind are the aforementioned Airport - Euston service (four daily?) and a frequent through-service to Skegness (some trains terminated at Nottingham). I don't believe these were abject 'failures' as such. IIRC, they were casualties in a drive by Network Rail to improve network punctuality by rationalising some duplicated services at chokepoints. The Skegness / Nottingham service, which was operated by one or two coach DMU Sprinters, was culled following this review. Line capacity was also an issue for the Euston service. That's what the rail mags reported at the time anyway!
If any new service uses existing London Midland paths in the Midlands and requires incremental access for the lightly-used Crewe - Manchester Airport section only, hopefully the earlier issues would not arise again.
Discontinued Manchester Airport rail-links (southbound) which spring to mind are the aforementioned Airport - Euston service (four daily?) and a frequent through-service to Skegness (some trains terminated at Nottingham). I don't believe these were abject 'failures' as such. IIRC, they were casualties in a drive by Network Rail to improve network punctuality by rationalising some duplicated services at chokepoints. The Skegness / Nottingham service, which was operated by one or two coach DMU Sprinters, was culled following this review. Line capacity was also an issue for the Euston service. That's what the rail mags reported at the time anyway!
If any new service uses existing London Midland paths in the Midlands and requires incremental access for the lightly-used Crewe - Manchester Airport section only, hopefully the earlier issues would not arise again.
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I'm sure your points about rationalisation and line capacity are valid Shed, and I'd forgotten some of the Notingham trains went on to Skegness.
From a usage perspective, I have to day on the few occasions I saw those and the Euston trains at the Airport station, there were relatively few customers, although of course there may well have been much more traffic further along the routes.
On specific aviation matters, I understand flynas are scheduled to reduce to 2 x weekly over the winter. Given a couple of the recent outbound loads reported elsewhere, it's difficult to see the route lasting at all, unless there is a maximum amount of freight being carried below. Does anyone know if the decent Saudia loads have been maintained? The CAA stats reported 4,999 pax to Jeddah in May, but it's hard to assess Saudia without knowing just how bad the flynas figures were. If the latter averaged say 40 per flight, it would suggest an average for Saudia of around 150 but I imagine the J class loads and freight are vital components.
From a usage perspective, I have to day on the few occasions I saw those and the Euston trains at the Airport station, there were relatively few customers, although of course there may well have been much more traffic further along the routes.
On specific aviation matters, I understand flynas are scheduled to reduce to 2 x weekly over the winter. Given a couple of the recent outbound loads reported elsewhere, it's difficult to see the route lasting at all, unless there is a maximum amount of freight being carried below. Does anyone know if the decent Saudia loads have been maintained? The CAA stats reported 4,999 pax to Jeddah in May, but it's hard to assess Saudia without knowing just how bad the flynas figures were. If the latter averaged say 40 per flight, it would suggest an average for Saudia of around 150 but I imagine the J class loads and freight are vital components.
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Sounsd like reasonable numbers to me, I think Saudia carried 189 outbound today, not sure what it was in. Flynas was the usual less than 20 numbers IIRC.
I don't know what keep those two going, even 189 for a B772 sounds very thin to me, but then again, I know very little about the runnings of an airline.
I don't know what keep those two going, even 189 for a B772 sounds very thin to me, but then again, I know very little about the runnings of an airline.
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At a time of rumoured unprecedented long haul expansion and the biggest redevelopment in the airport's history out to consultation, all you can find to talk about is......trains.......? 