BOURNEMOUTH - 3
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We just need KLM to switch their disastrous AMS flight from KENT MANSTON to Bournemouth (14 flights per week) and that would make a great winter. I personally need this for my own connections to Italy and Eastern Europe.
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KLM
I highly doubt KLM would launch any services to Bournemouth, considering their strong partnership with Flybe up the road at Southampton.
Nevertheless, would love for them to start services to BOH, I just can't see it myself.
Nevertheless, would love for them to start services to BOH, I just can't see it myself.
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KLM
You people are mad, mad as a box of frogs! It is common knowledge that BOH cannot sustain any kind of business route operating full stop, let alone daily, even more let alone double daily 
. This has been proved by the continued deterioration of the DUB route which comes with the allure of world wide connections etc. FR operating in the winter is certainly a step in the right direction though for BOH.
. This has been proved by the continued deterioration of the DUB route which comes with the allure of world wide connections etc. FR operating in the winter is certainly a step in the right direction though for BOH.
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While BOH does struggle with regard to business route mainly down to its location and SOU up the road I think it is more the fact that they often haven't had much of a chance. If KLM weren't linked up with Flybe I'd say they may give BOH a try and I would think 2-3 Daily on an F70 isn't too out of reach with a slowly improving economy. Similar could be said for DUB considering said economy and also EI's expanded range of connection's across the Atlantic.
You seem to hold a large grudge against BOH Rivet Joint, any particular reason for this? It may be less successful than SOU on the passenger side of things but its certainly far from the hopeless remote airstrip you make it out to be.
You seem to hold a large grudge against BOH Rivet Joint, any particular reason for this? It may be less successful than SOU on the passenger side of things but its certainly far from the hopeless remote airstrip you make it out to be.
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Adfly,
you said 'bournemouth...hasn't had much of a chance' in connection with business routes. There have been lots of attempts at such routes, going all the way back to Euro direct. There isn't the population to support regular business routes, especially as Southampton has the railway and motorway. It has simply never worked.
Rivet joint is correct, Bournemouth will build slowly, a mixture of passengers and private aviation, along with the based and visiting training aircraft.
It avoided going bust and has reduced its losses and will probably grow a little as the economy does - that's a realistic expectation for a small regional airport.
you said 'bournemouth...hasn't had much of a chance' in connection with business routes. There have been lots of attempts at such routes, going all the way back to Euro direct. There isn't the population to support regular business routes, especially as Southampton has the railway and motorway. It has simply never worked.
Rivet joint is correct, Bournemouth will build slowly, a mixture of passengers and private aviation, along with the based and visiting training aircraft.
It avoided going bust and has reduced its losses and will probably grow a little as the economy does - that's a realistic expectation for a small regional airport.
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While that should be considered I also think there has never really been the right sort of airline trying them, ironically enough its a carrier like Flybe who would be ideal for BOH, maybe with a smaller ATR42 sized a/c. I agree BOH has never done so well with the routes but many attempts have been ruined due to bad timing or size of aircraft (FR to EDI/PIK, BE to MAN, WW to JER). I doubt BOH would ever be able to sustain more than a couple of routes, and certainly never an operation like Flybe's up the road. However I don't think its impossible for it to sustain any business routes, however it is not easy it seems to find the ideal Airline/Aircraft/Frequency combination so in that respect BOH does struggle.
However I completely agree the primary cause of any growth at BOH would be through Leisure routes and also non-passenger activities.
However I completely agree the primary cause of any growth at BOH would be through Leisure routes and also non-passenger activities.
Adfly - Flybe are in trouble at the moment and are most unlikely to consider cannibalising Southampton *and* Exeter with a sideshow at Bournemouth. Blue Islands tried Bournemouth last year. Easyjet have a big base at Bristol. Vueling went for Southampton last year. Aer Lingus are trying Bournemouth this year. As mentioned above, AF-KL cooperate with Flybe. Lufthansa couldn't make Bristol work - the most they might consider now from Bournemouth is a Saturday flight from Dusseldorf for German tourists. Eastern operate to Southampton. With a change at Woking or Clapham Junction, Heathrow and Gatwick can be reached by train within 2h30 for medium and long haul destinations.
Who would you suggest try BOH for a business route ?
Who would you suggest try BOH for a business route ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 30th Jul 2013 at 12:46.
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The Flybe thing was hypothetical, the chance of them launching BOH is very slim to none thanks to the reasons you mention. I think it will be worth keeping an eye on EI's DUB route as there must be reasonable demand for a link to DUB (FR filled a daily 732/738 for ages) and the onwards connections available will also help this route.
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KLM to UK regional airports - not so far fetched
KLM is interesting, understanding their plans is pretty straightforward.
KLM like most other European legacy carriers has suffered a good deal over the past decade for two reasons: Competition on their short medium haul routes from Low Cost Carriers(LCC) and competition from the Middle East Big 3 (MEB3) namely Emirates, Qatar and Etihad. on their long haul flights going east or south.
KLM have chosen to compete with EZY and RYR using Transavia, their low cost in house airline. In the long term I think we all know that EZY and RYR will prevail in most markets. KLM need to do something different or slowly die.
For long haul, the AMS hub is losing out to the MEB3, each of whom are targeting the top 50 European airports, most of which are already served by KLM.
Emirates didn't even serve AMS until three years ago, now its a daily 380 with a second daily 773 service planned I hear. You can imagine that KLM are not best pleased by this development.
So what does KLM do? Their costs aren't low enough to compete with the MEB3 on price... instead they add the next tier of European airports to their destination list, feeding long and short haul through AMS. These airports are more difficult for the MEB3 to reach. KLM need to get closer to their customers than the MEB3 can do. Its a similar strategy that they used in competing with LHR and BAW.
That's why KLM serves so many smaller airports in UK and will expand in UK and other rich markets like Norway (yes the UK is a rich market)
That's also why KLM have added Manston and already serve secondary airports in UK including Teeside, Humberside, Norwich and Cardiff. Its KLM's way of competing with Heathrow, the MEB3 and with the LCC.
For BOH, the proximity of SOU and a Flybe link is not very significant, KLM want all the revenue they can get, Flybe is a convenient way for KLM to test the market and generate some revenue. But it does not preclude service from a nearby airport, just look at NCL/MME, BRS/CWL and so on.
BOH has a rich catchment for business and leisure. Sure it does not have the benefit of a railway and two motorways like SOU, but BOH catchment is further from the reaches of the MEB3 at LHR and LGW and does not have a large EZY presence to compete with for European business markets.
That's an interesting prospect for KLM.
I think you will see KLM adding perhaps one more airport in UK over the next two years, and BOH must be near the top of the list not already served.
LPL is another good example, but less likely because of the entrenched EZY service to AMS and the proximity to the MEB3 stronghold at Manchester.
FF
KLM like most other European legacy carriers has suffered a good deal over the past decade for two reasons: Competition on their short medium haul routes from Low Cost Carriers(LCC) and competition from the Middle East Big 3 (MEB3) namely Emirates, Qatar and Etihad. on their long haul flights going east or south.
KLM have chosen to compete with EZY and RYR using Transavia, their low cost in house airline. In the long term I think we all know that EZY and RYR will prevail in most markets. KLM need to do something different or slowly die.
For long haul, the AMS hub is losing out to the MEB3, each of whom are targeting the top 50 European airports, most of which are already served by KLM.
Emirates didn't even serve AMS until three years ago, now its a daily 380 with a second daily 773 service planned I hear. You can imagine that KLM are not best pleased by this development.
So what does KLM do? Their costs aren't low enough to compete with the MEB3 on price... instead they add the next tier of European airports to their destination list, feeding long and short haul through AMS. These airports are more difficult for the MEB3 to reach. KLM need to get closer to their customers than the MEB3 can do. Its a similar strategy that they used in competing with LHR and BAW.
That's why KLM serves so many smaller airports in UK and will expand in UK and other rich markets like Norway (yes the UK is a rich market)
That's also why KLM have added Manston and already serve secondary airports in UK including Teeside, Humberside, Norwich and Cardiff. Its KLM's way of competing with Heathrow, the MEB3 and with the LCC.
For BOH, the proximity of SOU and a Flybe link is not very significant, KLM want all the revenue they can get, Flybe is a convenient way for KLM to test the market and generate some revenue. But it does not preclude service from a nearby airport, just look at NCL/MME, BRS/CWL and so on.
BOH has a rich catchment for business and leisure. Sure it does not have the benefit of a railway and two motorways like SOU, but BOH catchment is further from the reaches of the MEB3 at LHR and LGW and does not have a large EZY presence to compete with for European business markets.
That's an interesting prospect for KLM.
I think you will see KLM adding perhaps one more airport in UK over the next two years, and BOH must be near the top of the list not already served.
LPL is another good example, but less likely because of the entrenched EZY service to AMS and the proximity to the MEB3 stronghold at Manchester.
FF
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Adfly: My problem is not with BOH (even though I think that 3rd rate airports should be flattened and turned into housing rather than diluting a more successful neighbour) but the delusional posters on this particular thread. Both SOU and BOH have long been open to KLM even back when Scot Airways (for some reason) were operating from SOU. From memory KLM codeshared with them and chose again to do so with BE. If you look at the stats the AMS route from SOU is growing with each month that passes. Why would KLM change this successful arrangement?
Possibleconsequences/Davidjohnson6: Spot on.
Flitephone: An interesting view although I see no quotes to back this up? I certainly raised an eyebrow when KLM started a route to the morgue that is MSE but as you say it provides feed and I think they know that no one else is going to be in a hurry to touch airports like Teeside, Humberside, Norwich etc. Also I think a key point is they probably own their Fokker 70's outright so operating costs are so low that a 30/40ish load probably still makes sense to them. I don't agree with your comparison to the situation at other neighbouring airports. Bristol is a hugely successful airport and Cardiff is the capital city of a country so hardly a similar situation.
If we are talking about an AMS route from BOH then I can only see FR/EZY doing it on a low cost basis but again the silence from these two re BOH is deafening. Both cannot operate a substantial base at SOU (for my money they would if they could) due to runway/stand restrictions and could inflict serious damage to BE at SOU if they opened a sizable base at BOH. But still no real effort on their part. You have to question why? Even Palmair, who for my money actually recognised BOH's apparent market of oldies wanting to burn themselves silly, are now no longer. Adfly I welcome you to make sense of all this?
Possibleconsequences/Davidjohnson6: Spot on.
Flitephone: An interesting view although I see no quotes to back this up? I certainly raised an eyebrow when KLM started a route to the morgue that is MSE but as you say it provides feed and I think they know that no one else is going to be in a hurry to touch airports like Teeside, Humberside, Norwich etc. Also I think a key point is they probably own their Fokker 70's outright so operating costs are so low that a 30/40ish load probably still makes sense to them. I don't agree with your comparison to the situation at other neighbouring airports. Bristol is a hugely successful airport and Cardiff is the capital city of a country so hardly a similar situation.
If we are talking about an AMS route from BOH then I can only see FR/EZY doing it on a low cost basis but again the silence from these two re BOH is deafening. Both cannot operate a substantial base at SOU (for my money they would if they could) due to runway/stand restrictions and could inflict serious damage to BE at SOU if they opened a sizable base at BOH. But still no real effort on their part. You have to question why? Even Palmair, who for my money actually recognised BOH's apparent market of oldies wanting to burn themselves silly, are now no longer. Adfly I welcome you to make sense of all this?
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Rivet
There are plenty of sources to illustrate my observations, I recommend you look at airline business magazine, and read the analyses by CAPA and Anna.aero
Also if you get the chance go to the aviation club in London and listen to what the airline CEO' say.
I disagree that Ryr or Ezy would open AMS from BOH, there is not enough reason, unless EZY was trying to take Flybe out of the game. Ryanair are far more likely to go after longer leisure routes.
I do expect a price war between Flybe and both EZY at LGW generally and BOH for GVA. I also expect a price war between RYR at BOH and Flybe at SOU for the sun routes in 2014.
More blood on the poor at Flybe next year as a most likely result probably. The challenge for SOU is that there really isn't much alternative to Flybe, with the increasing size of the LCC aircraft (see Anna) and the short runway at SOU.
We shall see
There are plenty of sources to illustrate my observations, I recommend you look at airline business magazine, and read the analyses by CAPA and Anna.aero
Also if you get the chance go to the aviation club in London and listen to what the airline CEO' say.
I disagree that Ryr or Ezy would open AMS from BOH, there is not enough reason, unless EZY was trying to take Flybe out of the game. Ryanair are far more likely to go after longer leisure routes.
I do expect a price war between Flybe and both EZY at LGW generally and BOH for GVA. I also expect a price war between RYR at BOH and Flybe at SOU for the sun routes in 2014.
More blood on the poor at Flybe next year as a most likely result probably. The challenge for SOU is that there really isn't much alternative to Flybe, with the increasing size of the LCC aircraft (see Anna) and the short runway at SOU.
We shall see
Last edited by Flitefone; 30th Jul 2013 at 20:55.
I suppose the basic conundrum is, if "BOH has a rich catchment for business and leisure" why is there only minimal airlines interest in servicing this group?
Quote all the sources you like but where's the metal parked on the tarmac?
Quote all the sources you like but where's the metal parked on the tarmac?
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SWBKCB
that's an easy answer. The metal is at LHR and LGW. Most of the local catchment for BOH and SOU simply makes the road or rail trip to the London airports for almost all their air travel requirements. London is not so far away.
The expansion locally to BOH/SOU will only happen when it makes sense for the airlines. In other words when The London airports a too full or too expensive.
My previous point was explaining how KLM approach things. The other legacy carriers have different philosophies for different reasons and in my view will never be seen at most UK regional airports.
The LCC are different again, they simply follow the money irrespective of their home base, they have no hub to protect. Expect to see steady LCC growth continue.
FF
that's an easy answer. The metal is at LHR and LGW. Most of the local catchment for BOH and SOU simply makes the road or rail trip to the London airports for almost all their air travel requirements. London is not so far away.
The expansion locally to BOH/SOU will only happen when it makes sense for the airlines. In other words when The London airports a too full or too expensive.
My previous point was explaining how KLM approach things. The other legacy carriers have different philosophies for different reasons and in my view will never be seen at most UK regional airports.
The LCC are different again, they simply follow the money irrespective of their home base, they have no hub to protect. Expect to see steady LCC growth continue.
FF
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Flitefone: I will take your word for it plus it does seem plausible. As I said I think the fact they own the Fokkers means they can make a route with low numbers work hence why they can touch these airports. I don't see Bournemouth being included though. I also agree that FR or EZY would not operate AMS from BOH but as I said BOH does not do business as a long history of failure will testify to so therefore any expansion will have to be leisure led. We will have to see after winter how BOH does but I have a hunch there simply isn't enough yield there for even the low cost operators to operate year round. The only threat to BE is themselves, they have nearly taken their company to the wall by buying an aircraft (175) they never needed and that undermines a piece of kit (q400) that has made them who they are. This decision can only be rivalled in the insanity stakes by the posters on here who think BOH has never had a chance to shine.
I have taken the liberty to paste part of an earlier post I sent about a year ago and although fairly flippant I think the gist remains: -
Southampton:
The cruise capital of northern Europe with 4 cruise terminals and therefore thousands embarking/disembarking daily (indeed recently 30,000 people in one day). Also head office of many of the cruise companies and base for staff transfer (upwards of 800 per ship).
One of the biggest oil refineries in England.
The second biggest container port in the country and the biggest exporter of vehicles in the whole of UK.
2 universities with one of them being in the top 10 of the whole country and being a national leader in various high end fields. Even internationally recognised in some areas! Thousands of Asian students come year round.
The best art collection outside London.
The home of the biggest boat show in the UK.
Massively multicultural population.
History wise the airport and city are closely associated with the Spitfire and of course Southampton is where the Titanic set sail from so big draws for tourists.
Also has a royal naval base and many army and RAF bases close by.
Home of a premiership football team with the biggest stadium on the south coast.
The airport has a modern upmarket terminal with a security fast track probably only bettered by LCY and of course is bordered by the main motorway to London and has the closest plane to train distance in the UK.
Also outside the big London airports and Manchester it has the highest number of passengers on nearly all its domestic routes than any other UK airport (200,000 yearly alone on the Edinburgh route – I make that pretty much a ¼ of Bournemouth’s total yearly volume!)
Now Bournemouth.........................
It has a beach?
SWBCK: You win first prize for hitting the nail on the head. Unfortunately the lunacy will carry on in this thread and i'm giving it a few weeks to a month before someone poses the question of why someone doesn't try operating an A380 to Mogadishu from BOH? Come on guys BOH just hasn't been given a chance, I think it could work
I have taken the liberty to paste part of an earlier post I sent about a year ago and although fairly flippant I think the gist remains: -
Southampton:
The cruise capital of northern Europe with 4 cruise terminals and therefore thousands embarking/disembarking daily (indeed recently 30,000 people in one day). Also head office of many of the cruise companies and base for staff transfer (upwards of 800 per ship).
One of the biggest oil refineries in England.
The second biggest container port in the country and the biggest exporter of vehicles in the whole of UK.
2 universities with one of them being in the top 10 of the whole country and being a national leader in various high end fields. Even internationally recognised in some areas! Thousands of Asian students come year round.
The best art collection outside London.
The home of the biggest boat show in the UK.
Massively multicultural population.
History wise the airport and city are closely associated with the Spitfire and of course Southampton is where the Titanic set sail from so big draws for tourists.
Also has a royal naval base and many army and RAF bases close by.
Home of a premiership football team with the biggest stadium on the south coast.
The airport has a modern upmarket terminal with a security fast track probably only bettered by LCY and of course is bordered by the main motorway to London and has the closest plane to train distance in the UK.
Also outside the big London airports and Manchester it has the highest number of passengers on nearly all its domestic routes than any other UK airport (200,000 yearly alone on the Edinburgh route – I make that pretty much a ¼ of Bournemouth’s total yearly volume!)
Now Bournemouth.........................
It has a beach?
SWBCK: You win first prize for hitting the nail on the head. Unfortunately the lunacy will carry on in this thread and i'm giving it a few weeks to a month before someone poses the question of why someone doesn't try operating an A380 to Mogadishu from BOH? Come on guys BOH just hasn't been given a chance, I think it could work
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For some readers the following may be interesting :
Insider News South West ? Bournemouth Airport returns to profit
Insider News South West ? Bournemouth Airport returns to profit
Bournemouth Airport's earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA) for the year to 31 March 2013 was £1.9m, compared with a loss of £600,000 in the previous year.
Revenue at the airport has remained static at £10.1m, but the number of passengers has risen from 600,000 to 700,000. Staff numbers at the airport have also increased from 126 in 2012 to 181.
Revenue at the airport has remained static at £10.1m, but the number of passengers has risen from 600,000 to 700,000. Staff numbers at the airport have also increased from 126 in 2012 to 181.
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I get the feeling Rivet Joint likes flying out of Southampton on a daily basis. And to add to your list, home of the Ford Transit...no wait! (sorry couldn't resist)
Not that RJ has anything against Bournemouth but his information is simply wrong. I wouldn't put a housing development on it, gravel extraction maybe... (sorry couldn't resist again)
I am a bit concerned that this thread is getting into a Southampton V Bournemouth contest, yet again. Both airports co-exist simply because they attract different times of market generally, with both airports dabbling in each others markets but not succeeding enough to affect the other. Only time will tell, and to be honest, long may both airports exist and prosper for the sake of the livelihoods of the people who work there.
Rationalists would argue that only one airport should exist but both airports have physical attributes that would make the decision difficult without serious cost to infrastructure and peoples lives.
Vive la difference!
Not that RJ has anything against Bournemouth but his information is simply wrong. I wouldn't put a housing development on it, gravel extraction maybe... (sorry couldn't resist again)
I am a bit concerned that this thread is getting into a Southampton V Bournemouth contest, yet again. Both airports co-exist simply because they attract different times of market generally, with both airports dabbling in each others markets but not succeeding enough to affect the other. Only time will tell, and to be honest, long may both airports exist and prosper for the sake of the livelihoods of the people who work there.
Rationalists would argue that only one airport should exist but both airports have physical attributes that would make the decision difficult without serious cost to infrastructure and peoples lives.
Vive la difference!
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RJ: What he seems to forget is that Ryanair are serving Southampton from Bournemouth. So if he bigs up SOU he is just putting more reason into why BOH succeeds with the LCCs.
Anyhow, this is the Bmth thread and I'd prefer to read positive things about Bmth. If I want info on SOU I'd go to their thread. Pretty quiet thread though.
KLM
On a different note, KLM have mentioned that they would be adding more UK departure points this year other than Manston.
Anyhow, this is the Bmth thread and I'd prefer to read positive things about Bmth. If I want info on SOU I'd go to their thread. Pretty quiet thread though.
KLM
On a different note, KLM have mentioned that they would be adding more UK departure points this year other than Manston.