CARDIFF - 2
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Lanterns in sky
I notice a few of these in the skys, now the nights are darker. Most seem to travel West to East along the channel (Bristol), not that far from airport (CWL), surely a jet engine ingesting one on take off/landing could cause problems? Technically, they are Airbornre F.O.D.?
Article/link from BBC Wales.
BBC News - Sky lanterns ban from Cardiff council land considered
Article/link from BBC Wales.
BBC News - Sky lanterns ban from Cardiff council land considered
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Good to see a 5% growth at CWL for November 2012. First time in a few years (excluding air lift months). Increases on several core routes too... Just got to keep it that way now... 
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Interesting move here with the BBC reporting the following;
Cardiff Airport: Welsh government plan to buy from TBI
The Welsh government wants to buy Cardiff airport from its current owners, the First Minister has said.
Carwyn Jones announced they had reached an agreement with owners TBI and would be working towards a purchase over the next few months.
The airport would be run on a commercial basis by an independent operator on behalf of the government.
It will not receive subsidies and and should "demonstrate a return to the taxpayer", Mr Jones said.
The Welsh government wants to buy Cardiff airport from its current owners, the First Minister has said.
Carwyn Jones announced they had reached an agreement with owners TBI and would be working towards a purchase over the next few months.
The airport would be run on a commercial basis by an independent operator on behalf of the government.
It will not receive subsidies and and should "demonstrate a return to the taxpayer", Mr Jones said.
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Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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So a group of failed politicians, who have had nothing positive to say about the airport or its managers for years, and who have presided over the decline of the local economy, are going, without any experience in running anything more complex than a whelk stand or a bath, to appoint the right group of people to turn the failing airport around and 'make a return'?
Coupled to the fact that they cannot, once it is in private hands, give any financial assistance to anyone, otherwise the folks at BRS and BHX will cry foul.
It'll be a housing estate by next Christmas.
Does any Welsh taxpayer think this is even remotely a sensible use of public funds?
TA
Coupled to the fact that they cannot, once it is in private hands, give any financial assistance to anyone, otherwise the folks at BRS and BHX will cry foul.
It'll be a housing estate by next Christmas.
Does any Welsh taxpayer think this is even remotely a sensible use of public funds?
TA
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I agree with you TA... how is this going to make the situation any better?
I couldn't believe it when I read it this morning, a task force is set-up which has said nothing and achieved nothing since its creation... all of a sudden the airport will be nationalised. How will this help? What can you do differently? One thing that has been said is that there will be NO... that is NO... subsidies given to airlines... what about VY? What about NM? Surely they will be adversely affected by this! A lick of paint and a couple of flower pots isn't going to make Emirates announce DBX or Delta announce NYC. The owner of the airport only has limited influence on the performance of an airport with the market being the determining factor. Flights to Bristol are £200 cheaper but Cardiff Airport has nice new seats in the waiting area... it isn't going to change anything.
Also saw that CJ announced this via Twitter. Wow... professional. This is not the right way to do it at all. He also annouced that SH routes will be increased in the short term with LH routes introduced later. AMS/CDG/DUB can't stay stabilse for more than 3 months in a row this is what is needed to be addressed! Sort out what we have, don't just plow money into more of everything if people aren't using what is already there!
I couldn't believe it when I read it this morning, a task force is set-up which has said nothing and achieved nothing since its creation... all of a sudden the airport will be nationalised. How will this help? What can you do differently? One thing that has been said is that there will be NO... that is NO... subsidies given to airlines... what about VY? What about NM? Surely they will be adversely affected by this! A lick of paint and a couple of flower pots isn't going to make Emirates announce DBX or Delta announce NYC. The owner of the airport only has limited influence on the performance of an airport with the market being the determining factor. Flights to Bristol are £200 cheaper but Cardiff Airport has nice new seats in the waiting area... it isn't going to change anything.
Also saw that CJ announced this via Twitter. Wow... professional. This is not the right way to do it at all. He also annouced that SH routes will be increased in the short term with LH routes introduced later. AMS/CDG/DUB can't stay stabilse for more than 3 months in a row this is what is needed to be addressed! Sort out what we have, don't just plow money into more of everything if people aren't using what is already there!
Last edited by planenut321; 18th Dec 2012 at 13:35.
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Nationalisation is always the answer British Steel, British Rail, British Leyland, The National Coal Board, The Soviet Union, etc.. all managed to be brilliant and ended well. Mmmmm.
I didn't come here to give a lecture on communism but if the Ts & Cs for the nationalised airline they will need to operate all these new services are in line with those for Welsh government and assembly members I'm available.
The current owners have badly managed the airport but it is not entirely their fault that no one seems to be able to make a profit at CWL in the bleak times we are now in. CWL is a marginal destination and always has been. Nothing has really changed. Don't harp about BRS it is a totally different scenario. It is far more about how the local economies have developed over the last 20 years than how the actual airports have developed.
What the politicians should have done was build a road (a good one), build a railway (a proper one) and help the commercial owners build a new terminal (one that works). I note they are still not saying they will do any of those very basic things. Even these won't solve the problem but would put CWL in a good place when things do finally improve. They can't do any of those things as they don't have the political will power (how long has the road been talked about) or more importantly the MONEY !!!!!!
The reasons CWL isn't BRS won't change with a change of owner. May be the politicians should stick to trying to fix the country. Buying the airport to increase it's utilisation is like trying to fix a car by putting in a flash new radio when it needs a new engine !
As Bill Clinton rightly said - "It's the economy stupid". and he's still right everytime I quote him.
I didn't come here to give a lecture on communism but if the Ts & Cs for the nationalised airline they will need to operate all these new services are in line with those for Welsh government and assembly members I'm available.
The current owners have badly managed the airport but it is not entirely their fault that no one seems to be able to make a profit at CWL in the bleak times we are now in. CWL is a marginal destination and always has been. Nothing has really changed. Don't harp about BRS it is a totally different scenario. It is far more about how the local economies have developed over the last 20 years than how the actual airports have developed.
What the politicians should have done was build a road (a good one), build a railway (a proper one) and help the commercial owners build a new terminal (one that works). I note they are still not saying they will do any of those very basic things. Even these won't solve the problem but would put CWL in a good place when things do finally improve. They can't do any of those things as they don't have the political will power (how long has the road been talked about) or more importantly the MONEY !!!!!!
The reasons CWL isn't BRS won't change with a change of owner. May be the politicians should stick to trying to fix the country. Buying the airport to increase it's utilisation is like trying to fix a car by putting in a flash new radio when it needs a new engine !
As Bill Clinton rightly said - "It's the economy stupid". and he's still right everytime I quote him.
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I've got a soft spot for EGFF having learnt to fly there 30 plus years ago.
However it's the wrong airport in the wrong location.
It would have made sense to close Cardiff and Bristol and build a new terminal etc at Filton. Good transport links and the infrastructure in place.
Cardiff will never be more than a bucket and spade airport.
However it's the wrong airport in the wrong location.
It would have made sense to close Cardiff and Bristol and build a new terminal etc at Filton. Good transport links and the infrastructure in place.
Cardiff will never be more than a bucket and spade airport.
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Plaid Cymru welcomed the announcement and said the airport needed to be a "shopfront" for Wales
It's located beside the coast in the bottom south-east corner of Wales, most travellers to Wales, south, mid and north will never get to see the "shopfront" because it's totally off the beaten tracks.
Mr Jones said: "Over the past 12 months, I have repeatedly emphasised the importance to Wales of a dynamic international gateway airport in Cardiff.
So they're going to move the airport to "in Cardiff" are they?
It's located beside the coast in the bottom south-east corner of Wales, most travellers to Wales, south, mid and north will never get to see the "shopfront" because it's totally off the beaten tracks.
Mr Jones said: "Over the past 12 months, I have repeatedly emphasised the importance to Wales of a dynamic international gateway airport in Cardiff.
So they're going to move the airport to "in Cardiff" are they?
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It's good to see a bit of ambition in my opinion. I'm not saying it will work but it could if managed correctly. Abertis have almost ran it into the ground, BFS is heading the same way.
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IMHO I see 2 choices.
1 Cancel APD in Wales, if they can persuade central government to give them the powers. This will attract the 2nd tier transatlantic (like TCX and TUI and MON) carriers who are hurting badly from APD.
2 Plough it up and build a housing estate. BA can go to St Athan and it will employ a couple of thousand building workers for a few years.
Most likely outcome, more fudge, delay and ineptitude at which the Welsh Assembly are masters. Can't wait to watch it all come falling on them from a great height!
Any bets the Spanish will walk away with a sackful of our hard earned tax revenue?
1 Cancel APD in Wales, if they can persuade central government to give them the powers. This will attract the 2nd tier transatlantic (like TCX and TUI and MON) carriers who are hurting badly from APD.
2 Plough it up and build a housing estate. BA can go to St Athan and it will employ a couple of thousand building workers for a few years.
Most likely outcome, more fudge, delay and ineptitude at which the Welsh Assembly are masters. Can't wait to watch it all come falling on them from a great height!
Any bets the Spanish will walk away with a sackful of our hard earned tax revenue?
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well its finally happened, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. spending millions on the purchase and millions on refurbishment is crazy, without having easy or fr inyour back pocket. poor old carwyn is going to be laughed out of westminster when he goes there cap in hand asking for more money for the welsh purse/ economy.
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The key question.
What is Carwyn and his mates going to do differently?
Answers on a postcard to C Jones, Lunatic Asylum, Cardiff Bay.
He is not going to get easy, Ryanair or any of the operators who are happily based at BRS. That's Airline Economics 101.
He can't throw any money at anyone - since that will now breach the rules on public funding of airlines.
He can make the building look nice, using shedloads of public money. Woo hoo!
Remember that he could fill the building with kittens and torch the place, and he will still get elected. He doesn't care, he doesn't understand, he just wants to play with his new 'trainset'.
I'm buying shares in Persimmon Homes.
TA
What is Carwyn and his mates going to do differently?
Answers on a postcard to C Jones, Lunatic Asylum, Cardiff Bay.
He is not going to get easy, Ryanair or any of the operators who are happily based at BRS. That's Airline Economics 101.
He can't throw any money at anyone - since that will now breach the rules on public funding of airlines.
He can make the building look nice, using shedloads of public money. Woo hoo!
Remember that he could fill the building with kittens and torch the place, and he will still get elected. He doesn't care, he doesn't understand, he just wants to play with his new 'trainset'.
I'm buying shares in Persimmon Homes.
TA
Last edited by TwinAisle; 19th Dec 2012 at 08:41.
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As someone who has worked at CWL for over 10 years, and seen it go from a "small regional airport" to "bustling international gateway" and back again, I have come to these conclusions.
When CWL was privatized back in 1995, there should have been massive investment from the new owners and the UK Govt (no WAG then!) and built a new terminal, and a multi storey car park, with a proper link to the M4 and Cardiff city. there should have been a proper rail station on a spur up to where the Holiday Inn express is now.
Also the airport should have moved heaven and earth to get a proper lo cost outfit in, running more than a handful of routes.
Bristol did some of these things in the same timespan, and look where they are today.
Carwyn Jones has actually exceeded my expectations, I thought after he formed his "Committee", that there would be just lots of hot air and no actual action.
I was wrong! CJ is even more of a halfwit than I ever imagined! spending "tens of millions" of taxpayers money, (my guess is c.45 million) on an airport in in its death rattle, when he knows NOTHING about running an airport, is gross stupidity, even in a time of economic stability! but to do it in a time of extreme economic hardship is even worse.
Try telling people up the Valleys or mid Wales, that around 45 million pounds won't be coming there way, because its been spent on a dying airport just up the road from Cardiff Bay!
to some up in 4 words.... TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE
When CWL was privatized back in 1995, there should have been massive investment from the new owners and the UK Govt (no WAG then!) and built a new terminal, and a multi storey car park, with a proper link to the M4 and Cardiff city. there should have been a proper rail station on a spur up to where the Holiday Inn express is now.
Also the airport should have moved heaven and earth to get a proper lo cost outfit in, running more than a handful of routes.
Bristol did some of these things in the same timespan, and look where they are today.
Carwyn Jones has actually exceeded my expectations, I thought after he formed his "Committee", that there would be just lots of hot air and no actual action.
I was wrong! CJ is even more of a halfwit than I ever imagined! spending "tens of millions" of taxpayers money, (my guess is c.45 million) on an airport in in its death rattle, when he knows NOTHING about running an airport, is gross stupidity, even in a time of economic stability! but to do it in a time of extreme economic hardship is even worse.
Try telling people up the Valleys or mid Wales, that around 45 million pounds won't be coming there way, because its been spent on a dying airport just up the road from Cardiff Bay!
to some up in 4 words.... TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE
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As somebody who has co-founded an aviation website on Welsh aviation I will do what I can to support the airport regardless to who owns or operate it. I do however have major concerns regarding the announcement which was made yesterday morning.
I have not seen anything on any of the news broadcasts or in the newspapers that has filled me with confidence that fortunes will change at Cardiff Airport. Am I surprised? Of course I’m not and this is mainly due to the issues that face Cardiff Airport are not their own doing and I will explain why. (Many will likely dissagree)
We are still in a very difficult economic climate and the core catchment of Cardiff Airport customers live in one of the most poor communities in South Wales with very low levels of disposable income and high levels of unemployment. This is the type of customer that chase the lowest fare possible regardless of the airport and that’s if their lucky enough to afford a holiday in the first place.
So why don’t Cardiff lower their fees? Well although their published fees are higher than many others these are subject to negotiation which according to experts are competitive with it’s competitors. But flights from the same airline are considerably more expensive from Cardiff than Bristol and Birmingham how is this? The airline/tour operator will set their ticket prices and not the airport. The more competition the lower the fares are likely to be and the less competition the opposite applies. Easyjet and Ryanair are based at Bristol and Birmingham which will mean other airlines/tour operators are likely to lower their fares as a result to ensure there is passengers are not lost to competitors. At Cardiff Airport where there is limited competition there is little need to reduce fares and airlines will charge as much as possible to make the most amount of money perseat.
So why don’t more airlines fly from Cardiff to add competition? Quite simply the airlinesdo not believe there is enough demand for routes to be viable. Most airlines are suffering too and this means they cannot simply take the financial risks to operate routes they believe that will not be a success. With Cardiff Airports severe drop in passengers after the withdrawal of bmibaby and our local economic climate are certainly not favourable conditions. The Welsh Government cannot subsidise a route by law either which that does not fall under the category of a PSO route however they may provide money for marketing and training purposes I believe.
So the predicament were are in which has been said by myself and several other members is the chicken or the egg situation. Airlines won’t operate new routes due to passenger numbers and passengers not using the airport due to the routes being available. Either there needs to be a way of subsidising travellers to use the services from Cardiff to boost figures or finding ways of getting moneys to the airlines to start these services. (Of course the latter is very controversial and would be hugely objected by Bristol Airport).
So now back to the announcement where it leads me to think would the money be better spent not only improving ground surface transport to the airport and boosting the local economy.
Ground surface transport links to the airport are appalling. The bus service operates hourly and by 2-3 separate companies depending on time and day of the week. All have separate route numbers and routes. There is a need for a more direct and frequent service operating to/from the city centre and Cardiff Airport. It must also be more integrated with departures/arrivals where it is available for those travelling either on the first/last arrival/departure of the day.
By encouraging companies to set up at the enterprise zones at St Athan (includes Cardiff Airport) and the central business district. Creating jobs will put money back into people’s pockets, encourage the need for business passengers to travel and do business etc. I believe that this is a better solution for the long term and a more stable investment to make which would have a better affect for South Wales after all what is the point even ifit was possible to pay airlines to operate to Cardiff when the South Wales population cannot afford to fly on the services and support them. This may also encourage freight to be flown from the airport.
Also wouldn’t the Welsh Government be better off pushing through sooner rather than later the reduction in APD?
Some questions that need to be answered
With many of the busiest airports in the UK do not actually make any profit how would the Welsh Government ensure the taxpayer gets a return on any investment?
How much money will it cost the Welsh Government to purchase Cardiff Airport? (between £50m & £100m likely but possibly more)
With no subsidies being provided according to the statement by Carwyn Jones how do they plan to attract airlines considering they can’t be attracted at present?
Who would pay for the terminal upgrade once the airport has been purchased? Would this be classed as a further investment?
Can the Welsh Government assure the Welsh public that Cardiff Airport will not have a loophole in that the operator may use the land to build homes etc similar to the Plymouth Airport/Balfour Beatty issue.
Why should the Welsh public trust the Welsh Government owning an airport that they are unable to provide sufficient ground surface transport links for it’s users at present.
Will the Welsh Government with it’s operator provide a detailed plan to what we can expect in 3,5,10 years similar to the Master Plan?
I have not seen anything on any of the news broadcasts or in the newspapers that has filled me with confidence that fortunes will change at Cardiff Airport. Am I surprised? Of course I’m not and this is mainly due to the issues that face Cardiff Airport are not their own doing and I will explain why. (Many will likely dissagree)
We are still in a very difficult economic climate and the core catchment of Cardiff Airport customers live in one of the most poor communities in South Wales with very low levels of disposable income and high levels of unemployment. This is the type of customer that chase the lowest fare possible regardless of the airport and that’s if their lucky enough to afford a holiday in the first place.
So why don’t Cardiff lower their fees? Well although their published fees are higher than many others these are subject to negotiation which according to experts are competitive with it’s competitors. But flights from the same airline are considerably more expensive from Cardiff than Bristol and Birmingham how is this? The airline/tour operator will set their ticket prices and not the airport. The more competition the lower the fares are likely to be and the less competition the opposite applies. Easyjet and Ryanair are based at Bristol and Birmingham which will mean other airlines/tour operators are likely to lower their fares as a result to ensure there is passengers are not lost to competitors. At Cardiff Airport where there is limited competition there is little need to reduce fares and airlines will charge as much as possible to make the most amount of money perseat.
So why don’t more airlines fly from Cardiff to add competition? Quite simply the airlinesdo not believe there is enough demand for routes to be viable. Most airlines are suffering too and this means they cannot simply take the financial risks to operate routes they believe that will not be a success. With Cardiff Airports severe drop in passengers after the withdrawal of bmibaby and our local economic climate are certainly not favourable conditions. The Welsh Government cannot subsidise a route by law either which that does not fall under the category of a PSO route however they may provide money for marketing and training purposes I believe.
So the predicament were are in which has been said by myself and several other members is the chicken or the egg situation. Airlines won’t operate new routes due to passenger numbers and passengers not using the airport due to the routes being available. Either there needs to be a way of subsidising travellers to use the services from Cardiff to boost figures or finding ways of getting moneys to the airlines to start these services. (Of course the latter is very controversial and would be hugely objected by Bristol Airport).
So now back to the announcement where it leads me to think would the money be better spent not only improving ground surface transport to the airport and boosting the local economy.
Ground surface transport links to the airport are appalling. The bus service operates hourly and by 2-3 separate companies depending on time and day of the week. All have separate route numbers and routes. There is a need for a more direct and frequent service operating to/from the city centre and Cardiff Airport. It must also be more integrated with departures/arrivals where it is available for those travelling either on the first/last arrival/departure of the day.
By encouraging companies to set up at the enterprise zones at St Athan (includes Cardiff Airport) and the central business district. Creating jobs will put money back into people’s pockets, encourage the need for business passengers to travel and do business etc. I believe that this is a better solution for the long term and a more stable investment to make which would have a better affect for South Wales after all what is the point even ifit was possible to pay airlines to operate to Cardiff when the South Wales population cannot afford to fly on the services and support them. This may also encourage freight to be flown from the airport.
Also wouldn’t the Welsh Government be better off pushing through sooner rather than later the reduction in APD?
Some questions that need to be answered
With many of the busiest airports in the UK do not actually make any profit how would the Welsh Government ensure the taxpayer gets a return on any investment?
How much money will it cost the Welsh Government to purchase Cardiff Airport? (between £50m & £100m likely but possibly more)
With no subsidies being provided according to the statement by Carwyn Jones how do they plan to attract airlines considering they can’t be attracted at present?
Who would pay for the terminal upgrade once the airport has been purchased? Would this be classed as a further investment?
Can the Welsh Government assure the Welsh public that Cardiff Airport will not have a loophole in that the operator may use the land to build homes etc similar to the Plymouth Airport/Balfour Beatty issue.
Why should the Welsh public trust the Welsh Government owning an airport that they are unable to provide sufficient ground surface transport links for it’s users at present.
Will the Welsh Government with it’s operator provide a detailed plan to what we can expect in 3,5,10 years similar to the Master Plan?
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Only time will tell whether CWL actually grows to a decent regional airport (i.e around 2MPPA) or become a housing estate. However, despite the sceptics, this could be what CWL needs and that is a change of ownership. Abertis have run CWL into the ground since 2008, and others have also mentioned the situation at BFS. Yes, we can all moan about taxpayers money being spent, but don't forget that CWL can also deliver a nice little profit to the taxpayer, only making a loss last year (2011), but profited in the years before that.
However, taxpayer money needs to be well-spent on the airport, not nice new seats for the departure lounge for the few people that use it daily on winter months. Build an M4 connection, at least listen to the CBI and others who believe that this could add an extra weapon against BRS. Wouldnt that have been a more sound investment of £100m though ?
However, taxpayer money needs to be well-spent on the airport, not nice new seats for the departure lounge for the few people that use it daily on winter months. Build an M4 connection, at least listen to the CBI and others who believe that this could add an extra weapon against BRS. Wouldnt that have been a more sound investment of £100m though ?
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I dont think Albertis have run BFS into the ground. Last year there was a large investment (10million?). Difficulty is in NI that we have three commerical airports for population of 1.8million. With only 20 miles between BFS and BHD it is natural that both airports are not making sufficent profits to re invest.
When, and if CWL is sold it could mean more money for BFS?
When, and if CWL is sold it could mean more money for BFS?
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BBC News - Cardiff Airport: First minister defends purchase plan
After listening to the above, sounds as though the WG will buy from TBI to simply secure jobs ? So, TBI did have plans to demolish then ... ?
After listening to the above, sounds as though the WG will buy from TBI to simply secure jobs ? So, TBI did have plans to demolish then ... ?
If you're going to spend money on an airport in south Wales would it not be better to spend it on St Athan? Rail link already runs right past the front door, big (empty) facilities on site, room to extend (max 7000 feet on Googoo earth?) and possibly easier to run a road link past Hensol to the Miskin junction.
Why buy Cardiff when HM Gov already has an airport next door?
Actually, what about Llandow???
Why buy Cardiff when HM Gov already has an airport next door?
Actually, what about Llandow???