CARDIFF - 2
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The greatest mistake CWL management made was loosing Ryanair. Had they kept them CWL would now be a real counter weight to BRS. Politicians and planning don't work. Goggle Ciudad Airport in Spain as a stunning example of political build and they will come thinking. Regional airports have expanded because of low cost airlines. They struggle to attract and hold full service legacy carriers. If you removed easyjet and Ryanair from Bristol there isn't much left. AF, KLM and EI etc. The Lo-co's didn't come for the design and architecture at BRS they came because of good contractual terms and an affluent catchment area. Investing £250 million is peanuts, that'll get you some new toilets, an additional airbridge and some new baggage carts. I would love to see a Gulf airline and/or CO/UA back at BRS, but it won't happen. The UK is a small island with room for one hub airport. That hub is yet to be built and it should be in South East. CWL suffered because BMI Baby repelled other Lo-Co's whilst not investing to make it successful. They need to be realistic and that means attracting Jet2 or somebody else to have a real crack at building a budget network. No it isn't glamorous, but if the likes of Birmingham and Manchester struggle to hold a limited full service network Cardiff has no chance. Passengers will be attracted by a competitively priced ticket to a destination they want to fly to. How many people fly to LAX from Wales and the West each week? Not enough to fill a 737, let alone a 777 on a daily basis. However there are enough passengers who want to fly to Faro, Malaga etc. Focus on what people want and not a vanity project. If politicians become involved CWL will simply become a folly to Carwyn Jones' ego.
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I have to take issue with some of that, Bristolflyer.
I don't think Cardiff management did 'lose Ryanair'. Ryanair, like all other well run operations, moves to make the most of its market. I don't think for a single second that there is anything, short of throwing crazy amounts of subsidy at them, that would have made Ryanair say no to BRS, and yes to CWL.
We do have a hub airport - it's just outside Hounslow. It's not perfect, but has become the nation's hub airport since that is where the majority of the market is. Improve it, yes, add more runways hell yes - but move it? No.
bmibaby certainly did not repel other carriers. There were more than enough destinations left uncovered at CWL even during baby's peak times for someone else to get in there, and the airport certainly encouraged that. When baby was on the wane, they would have been easy to wipe out of Cardiff, had another operator been so inclined. What stopped this, and in the end did for baby at Cardiff was the massive seasonality and relatively small size of the local market.
The same is true of Jet2 - why should they come to Cardiff? They are doing pretty well from what I gather where they are, and to take a punt on Cardiff - which to many outsiders is seen as a graveyard for routes and airlines - is not something that I would advise them to do... and that's what I do for a living!
But you are bang on the money re the vanity projects, and for warning about the cancerous effect that politicians tend to have on the scene....
TA
I don't think Cardiff management did 'lose Ryanair'. Ryanair, like all other well run operations, moves to make the most of its market. I don't think for a single second that there is anything, short of throwing crazy amounts of subsidy at them, that would have made Ryanair say no to BRS, and yes to CWL.
We do have a hub airport - it's just outside Hounslow. It's not perfect, but has become the nation's hub airport since that is where the majority of the market is. Improve it, yes, add more runways hell yes - but move it? No.
bmibaby certainly did not repel other carriers. There were more than enough destinations left uncovered at CWL even during baby's peak times for someone else to get in there, and the airport certainly encouraged that. When baby was on the wane, they would have been easy to wipe out of Cardiff, had another operator been so inclined. What stopped this, and in the end did for baby at Cardiff was the massive seasonality and relatively small size of the local market.
The same is true of Jet2 - why should they come to Cardiff? They are doing pretty well from what I gather where they are, and to take a punt on Cardiff - which to many outsiders is seen as a graveyard for routes and airlines - is not something that I would advise them to do... and that's what I do for a living!
But you are bang on the money re the vanity projects, and for warning about the cancerous effect that politicians tend to have on the scene....
TA
Last edited by TwinAisle; 9th Nov 2012 at 10:59.
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Can anyone shed any light on the following please?
I was told yesterday that Easy Jet will be operating the MAH flight on behalf of TCX next summer out of CWL, how true could this be?
I was told yesterday that Easy Jet will be operating the MAH flight on behalf of TCX next summer out of CWL, how true could this be?
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easyJet
tbi
I think this gossip very unlikely to be true as I believe TCX will only utilise seats on EZY flights where they're already based, i.e. BRS.
As for the MAH, it will be operated by TCX on Friday mornings for summer 2013.
PP
I think this gossip very unlikely to be true as I believe TCX will only utilise seats on EZY flights where they're already based, i.e. BRS.
As for the MAH, it will be operated by TCX on Friday mornings for summer 2013.
PP
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By making a fake booking to Mahon you can see that the Thomas Cook flight operates
CWL 06:25 MAH 09:50
MAH 10:50 CWL 12:30
This suggest that it is a Cardiff based aircraft also states quite clearly the flight is operated by Thomas Cook Airlines.
Unless Thomas Cook increases the capacity on the Mahon for Summer 2013 or changes it's times and hasn't released/amended it yet then the likelyhood of this happening will be in fact zero.
To my knowledge Thomas Cook are only selling seats on Easyjet schedule flights and are not actually chartering easyjet aircraft.
The one thing I am shocked with however that Thomas Cook have not bought any seats on the Vueling product from Cardiff as they used to with bmibaby before they pulled out.
CWL 06:25 MAH 09:50
MAH 10:50 CWL 12:30
This suggest that it is a Cardiff based aircraft also states quite clearly the flight is operated by Thomas Cook Airlines.
Unless Thomas Cook increases the capacity on the Mahon for Summer 2013 or changes it's times and hasn't released/amended it yet then the likelyhood of this happening will be in fact zero.
To my knowledge Thomas Cook are only selling seats on Easyjet schedule flights and are not actually chartering easyjet aircraft.
The one thing I am shocked with however that Thomas Cook have not bought any seats on the Vueling product from Cardiff as they used to with bmibaby before they pulled out.
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TCX at CWL - Summer 2013
TCX at CWL - Summer 2013
TCX will be basing 1x A320 at CWL for summer 2013 (same as Summer 2012)
SUMMARY:
Summer 2012:
16x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
2x weekly flights operated by a BRS based aircraft operating a w-pattern
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air
Summer 2013:
13x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air
Below I have broken down the 2013 destinations served by TCX own aircraft in comparison to 2012.
Flights per week:
(note: nc= no change from Summer 2012)
SPAIN: 7x weekly (-1)- (8x weekly in Summer 2012)
ZTH: 1x weekly – (nc)
HER: 1x weekly – (nc)
RHO: 1x weekly – (nc)
CYPRUS: 2x weekly – (nc)
LCA: 1x weekly – (nc)
PFO: 1x weekly – (nc)
TUNISIA: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
NBE: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly flight operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)
TURKEY: 1x weekly (-2)- (3x weekly in Summer 2012)
DLM: 1x weekly – (nc) - (Onur Air also operating 1x weekly on behalf of TCX, same as 2012)
BJV: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
AYT: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
The schedule will look like the below:
Monday:
#1: REU, DLM
Tuesday:
#1: PMI, HER
Wednesday:
#1: NBE, RHO
Thursday:
#1: ZTH, ACE
Friday:
#1: MAH, TFS
Saturday:
#1: PMI, IBZ, NBE
Sunday:
#1: PFO, LCA
TCX will be basing 1x A320 at CWL for summer 2013 (same as Summer 2012)
SUMMARY:
Summer 2012:
16x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
2x weekly flights operated by a BRS based aircraft operating a w-pattern
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air
Summer 2013:
13x Destinations, 5x Countries
15x weekly flights operated by based aircraft
1x weekly flight operated by Onur Air
Below I have broken down the 2013 destinations served by TCX own aircraft in comparison to 2012.
Flights per week:
(note: nc= no change from Summer 2012)
SPAIN: 7x weekly (-1)- (8x weekly in Summer 2012)
Mainland:
REU: 1x weekly – (nc) (operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)
Canary Islands:
ACE: 1x weekly – (nc)
TFS: 1x weekly –( nc)
FUE: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
Balearic Islands:
PMI: 2x weekly – (nc)
MAH: 1x weekly – (nc)
IBZ: 1x weekly – (nc)
GREEK ISLANDS: 3x weekly – (nc) REU: 1x weekly – (nc) (operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)
Canary Islands:
ACE: 1x weekly – (nc)
TFS: 1x weekly –( nc)
FUE: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
Balearic Islands:
PMI: 2x weekly – (nc)
MAH: 1x weekly – (nc)
IBZ: 1x weekly – (nc)
ZTH: 1x weekly – (nc)
HER: 1x weekly – (nc)
RHO: 1x weekly – (nc)
CYPRUS: 2x weekly – (nc)
LCA: 1x weekly – (nc)
PFO: 1x weekly – (nc)
TUNISIA: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
NBE: 2x weekly (+1)- (1x weekly flight operated by a BRS based aircraft on a w-pattern in Summer 2012)
TURKEY: 1x weekly (-2)- (3x weekly in Summer 2012)
DLM: 1x weekly – (nc) - (Onur Air also operating 1x weekly on behalf of TCX, same as 2012)
BJV: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
AYT: 0 (-1) - (1x weekly in Summer 2012)
The schedule will look like the below:
Monday:
#1: REU, DLM
Tuesday:
#1: PMI, HER
Wednesday:
#1: NBE, RHO
Thursday:
#1: ZTH, ACE
Friday:
#1: MAH, TFS
Saturday:
#1: PMI, IBZ, NBE
Sunday:
#1: PFO, LCA
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Silk Commision report recommends that Long Haul APD is devolved to Wales
You can see Cardiff Airport's response - by clicking here
Also another article has been found on future propoals for Cardiff Airport as part of the Gateway Project - view article
You can see Cardiff Airport's response - by clicking here
Also another article has been found on future propoals for Cardiff Airport as part of the Gateway Project - view article
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Silk
Very interesting to see what could happen should APD be devolved to Wales, and there's no reason why it shouldn't as steps have been taken in NI to protect long-haul flying, yet I know the reasons were mostly competitive vs Rep of Ireland, Wales has to set a very good business case for this.
Now, even more interesting comments from Bristol CEO on the devolution of APD. Ultimately he is a obviously a little annoyed and has no doubt consulted lawyers regarding EU state aid rules, but how will this sit with the NI assembly should he pursue it? Good news for Wales, but understandably bad news for BRS should it happen.
Airports at odds over Silk backing for air passenger duty devolution
PP
Now, even more interesting comments from Bristol CEO on the devolution of APD. Ultimately he is a obviously a little annoyed and has no doubt consulted lawyers regarding EU state aid rules, but how will this sit with the NI assembly should he pursue it? Good news for Wales, but understandably bad news for BRS should it happen.
Airports at odds over Silk backing for air passenger duty devolution
PP
Last edited by fanrailuk; 20th Nov 2012 at 17:04.
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has no doubt consulted lawyers regarding EU state aid rules
This is going to get entertaining....
TA
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Coming from NI I certainly welcomed the reduction in long haul services APD to zero. Yes I do believe it was a special case
Two main issues, NI has a land border with ROI and there was a great loss of pax to DUB which had APD of three euro compared to the crazy £60 at BFS. BFS only has one long haul to EWR, daily in summer, five weekly in winter so not a great loss to the Chancellor and the money is taken back from the NI assembly. This drain to DUB was money not going to the UK coffers rather to the ROI
Secondly surely there is the need to overall the APD, especially after the freezing for one year of the EU emissions scheme
Maybe best if APD is scrapped altogether and if the GOvt wants to raise taxes have a general small tax on ALL transport, boats, trains and planes
Two main issues, NI has a land border with ROI and there was a great loss of pax to DUB which had APD of three euro compared to the crazy £60 at BFS. BFS only has one long haul to EWR, daily in summer, five weekly in winter so not a great loss to the Chancellor and the money is taken back from the NI assembly. This drain to DUB was money not going to the UK coffers rather to the ROI
Secondly surely there is the need to overall the APD, especially after the freezing for one year of the EU emissions scheme
Maybe best if APD is scrapped altogether and if the GOvt wants to raise taxes have a general small tax on ALL transport, boats, trains and planes
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Gazmo you make a fair point in your post, but I am not convinced that the removal of the APD is such a bonus, if it is the carrot that can attract new routes, namely a flight to Toronto or Orlando or a Boston for that matter that would make it a winner, though in terms of being competitive on price, making the case that Dublin had lower charges may seem clear in principal but the fact that there are so many flights from Dublin means that there may just be many more opportunities to avail of a cheaper fare, there is a core number of passengers on the BFS EWR routes +/- £100k pa. not checked figures for some time, some of these will book early on BFS and get the lowest fares, for the others checking and find more expensive prices, then they will look to Dublin for Price and importantly choice of destination.
Dublin has a nice range of US destinations including JFK and the fact that EI do 1 ticket via aerlingus.com to all over the states often at good prices is another reason why Dublin will draw NI passengers.
Just realised that this is CWL thread and not BFS!!
Dublin has a nice range of US destinations including JFK and the fact that EI do 1 ticket via aerlingus.com to all over the states often at good prices is another reason why Dublin will draw NI passengers.
Just realised that this is CWL thread and not BFS!!
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I'm not sure BRS has anything to worry about as with the Welsh Government track record they will take so long to bring this into fruition that APD tariffs maybe varied in the regions anyway.
A figure that was plucked from one of several news reports which I read stated that only £11m is raised in APD in Wales. The airlines may find Cardiff attractive with the deviation of APD in Wales not only as the level of APD will likely be lower on key routes, but I have a feeling the airlines will not lower their prices and in fact make money their selves out of it.
My opinion is that Welsh politicians do not understand how important lowering APD is and how much it is damaging our local economy. No Welsh appears could be bothered to turn up to the APD debate in the House of Commons on 1st Nov 12
A figure that was plucked from one of several news reports which I read stated that only £11m is raised in APD in Wales. The airlines may find Cardiff attractive with the deviation of APD in Wales not only as the level of APD will likely be lower on key routes, but I have a feeling the airlines will not lower their prices and in fact make money their selves out of it.
My opinion is that Welsh politicians do not understand how important lowering APD is and how much it is damaging our local economy. No Welsh appears could be bothered to turn up to the APD debate in the House of Commons on 1st Nov 12
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I have a feeling the airlines will not lower their prices and in fact make money their selves out of it.
No airline is going to look twice at an airport with wafer thin margins; if they can see a way of making a fatter margin, they may look at Cardiff.
Low fares may be fun for the punter, but they are not fun for the airline...
TA
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Would you agree TwinAisle that lowering/removing APD is only one step in the equasion as airlines will likely not charge less for the tickets but simlpy make more money from the passenger
The 2nd step would be of course to encourage more viable routes which will hopefully bring some of the passengers back who use other airports for their travel?
You of course are likely to be aware of further factors issues etc
The 2nd step would be of course to encourage more viable routes which will hopefully bring some of the passengers back who use other airports for their travel?
You of course are likely to be aware of further factors issues etc
Last edited by mathers_wales_uk; 21st Nov 2012 at 12:17.
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Not quite sure I understood the question....
Anything that makes a better business case for a Cardiff route will help attract an airline to operate it. That boils down to passenger numbers and yields. Dropping APD will be a great help in generating a business case for a new route, certainly - I certainly would not expect a carrier to pass on all, or even any, of the savings to the public, and fatter margins make for more possibilities.
Frankly, that's it. Prove that there is money to be made on a route - or help the airlines prove that for themselves - and they'll come. If that case isn't made, they won't. Simples, as a meerkat might say.
TA
Anything that makes a better business case for a Cardiff route will help attract an airline to operate it. That boils down to passenger numbers and yields. Dropping APD will be a great help in generating a business case for a new route, certainly - I certainly would not expect a carrier to pass on all, or even any, of the savings to the public, and fatter margins make for more possibilities.
Frankly, that's it. Prove that there is money to be made on a route - or help the airlines prove that for themselves - and they'll come. If that case isn't made, they won't. Simples, as a meerkat might say.
TA
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Sorry popped the question in quickly as I was getting ready for work. You did answer my question thank you.
I suppose the other thing we would need to do is somehow encourage the passengers to start using Cardiff once the routes are in place as they have got used to using alternatives at other airports.
I suppose the other thing we would need to do is somehow encourage the passengers to start using Cardiff once the routes are in place as they have got used to using alternatives at other airports.
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Encouraging the passengers is the airline's job, frankly. If they think the passengers are there to encourage, and the fares can be set at a level to get them flying, whereby the airline makes some profit, then the airport is in with a chance. Otherwise.... the abyss.
TA
TA
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Just as an example, and without bothering to spot check, check out the (all inclusive) fares on Austrian Airlines from LHR to/from KBP, to MOW, to DNK, to pretty much anywhere outside of the EU then compare those fares against Austrian Airlines fares from VIE to/from those same destinations.
The airlines are absorbing the UK taxes and as much as these taxes might leave a sour taste in the mouth the airlines are asborbing them and any suggestion that these state airlines are suddenly to switch from Hounslow to Rhoose Village ..... Well!!!!!
The airlines are absorbing the UK taxes and as much as these taxes might leave a sour taste in the mouth the airlines are asborbing them and any suggestion that these state airlines are suddenly to switch from Hounslow to Rhoose Village ..... Well!!!!!