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Old 18th Oct 2014, 14:12
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isn't it easy to spend somebody else's money?
Well it seems par for the course for these forums for each airport to have a nominated Walter Mitty character. The overriding qualfication for the post seems to be to have absolutely no experience of working in airport management or airline route development whatsoever. The MAN thread is oversubscribed in this regard, so maybe it is about time the balance in the North was restored

Did the owners of MAN say "we'll build a second runway when we get to 30 million passengers? No they invested their MONEY in the airport up front which meant attracting and doing deals with airlines all the easier.
They said, we've got regular inbound and outbound holding delays and congestion was a real issue that impacted punctuality and fuel burn - and in turn profitability. Obviously the hope was that the project would alleviate the delays AND allow growth of another 17m passengers per year in a 10-15 year horizon. I don't see how that is in anyway comparable to LBA, unless you are saying there is a congestion issue that needs addressing. Are there any holding delays? How much growth could be accommodated before the lack of a parallel taxiway became an issue ?
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Old 18th Oct 2014, 14:26
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Man had holding delays? Not quite as bad as LGW on their single runway eh! But if MAN did have holding delays that is because everyman and his dog from Yorkshire HAD to fly from there!

That is just the point LBIA needs bringing upto scratch to stop MAN pinching its passengers. The same money which NCL has had spent on it. LBIA has had virtually no real money spent on it in 40 years and asking for this to be done is not being a walter mitty character it is demanding the bare minimum.

I can understand a MAN supporter from monte carlo getting on his high horse about this because theres an awful lot of Yorkshire people who wont have to touch that place when a little bit of long overdue money is spent on LBIA.
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Old 18th Oct 2014, 14:33
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Casual observer of scene rather than industry insider.

My take on it is that the layout does not permit more than about 12 departures and no arrivals per peak hour (say 0630-0900 summer months). This is what places the operational constraint on the working of the airport at the moment. Given that it is dominated by Jet 2 and Ryanair which need their rotations, that limits the number of based aircraft which in turn limits capacity. The above may not be completely true at the detailed level but I believe is broadly valid.

Obviously if they improved the taxiway to relax the capacity constraint, that would have implications for the terminal capacity. There's also the issue of parking capacity for the jets at night.

As with many capacity problems the issue boils down to what it is worth doing to improve conditions in the top 500 hours of demand per year and whether the market conditions are right to convert capacity into realised throughput. None of this will come cheap.
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Old 18th Oct 2014, 14:46
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I can understand a MAN supporter from monte carlo getting on his high horse about this because theres an awful lot of Yorkshire people who wont have to touch that place when a little bit of long overdue money is spent on LBIA.
What does that even mean ? A "supporter'. This isn't football, it's a discussion forum for people able to demonstrate a basic grasp of how the business works. I don't have any problem joining in with others pointing out the failings of Manchester Mitty's either

Maybe you need to read the SOPs that the mods have posted in the sticky above which quote, amongst other things....

If, however, you fit into the category of a Walter Mitty or someone who thinks they know how to run an airline or airport better than those who can and do, you have our permission to go away to find another site where you fit right in. You will no longer be welcome here.
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Old 18th Oct 2014, 15:18
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There really is nothing wrong about wanting your local region or local airport to be successful and reach its potential. You need to get over yourself.

The point is Yorkshire is a big enough and successful enough region (without having to be helped out by central govt) to expect an airport that suitably serves it. The airport is far from ideal in many regards but can do a lot more to redress the unfair balance the MAN has gained.

That is what Yorkshire people are demanding and it will happen just as the growing BA shuttle service has taken passengers away from MAN.

I can well understand why MAN are putting posters up all over West Yorks. They know the importance of every single Yorkshire passenger that they lose.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 16:46
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
There really is nothing wrong about wanting your local region or local airport to be successful and reach its potential.
But there's a great deal wrong in feeling such an entitlement to those ends that economics and practicalities go out of the window. You used words like "expect", "unfair" and "demanded" which suggest your attachment to LBA is emotional rather than practical.

LBA is already a successful airport. I get the feeling that your real issue is that it isn't as big or as well appointed as MAN.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 17:54
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Yorkshire needs a better airport

Please let me clarify. LBA will never be as big as MAN - that is because it is in the wrong location. If it had been built near to the junction of the M62 / M1 70 years ago it would now be serving as an airport for the entire north midlands and north of England. That would be the ideal location for an airport well linked with road and rail and equally spaced at the centre of the main conurbations. It would now be moving more people than MAN is.

That never happened obviously which has allowed Manchester to grow to a size that in reality it should never have reached. Unfortunately for Manchester Leeds city region is not small and infact the Yorkshire region creates more wealth than the NW region and so yes emotion does come into the issue. It is high time that our far from perfect airport has just a fraction of the money that MAN has had spent on it. The councils sold the airport because they could not invest an amount of money that would bring the airport up to scratch. Both the council and Bridgepoint know that there are millions of potential passengers but to get them not only must the airport be enlarged but the airport ideally must be linked to the motorway and rail network.

The issue is how many passengers could the present LBA site move (maximum) and is it worth spending x amount of money to get to this capped amount of passengers?
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 19:03
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infact the Yorkshire region creates more wealth than the NW region

Let's look at the Office for National Statistics

Gross value added (GVA) measures the value of economic output in a particular area. As such, it is one of the most important indicators of regional economic performance.

This is from the July 2014 report highlighting the 2011 and 2012 annual figures

In billions of pounds:
North West................127.9 -> 130.6 up 2.2%
Yorkshire and The Humber..092.5 -> 093.3 up 1.0%


Cumbria's contribution to the Northwest total is 7.5 billion so that means 123 billion for the remainder of the region

Okay. So point not proved for Yorkshire. Let's look at population instead from the 2011 census instead:

Yorkshire and the Humber..5,177,200
North West................7,052,000


Taking out Cumbria from the Northwest population makes the population 500,000 less so we're still talking 6,500,000

Oh. Smaller population base as well for Yorkshire.

It would now be moving more people than MAN is.
Aren't you assuming that in the parallel world where this LBA utopia exists, MAN would not be clawing back the passenger it's perceives as "lost"?

As is stands, there is room for 1 major airport in the North. It happens to be MAN. Any long-haul will predominantly feature at MAN. LPL and LBA may gain some in the fullness of time but European links are the way forward for both. However, if an airline running LPL and/or LBA finds that it impacts on MAN so that all services would not be profitable as operating to a single airport, then it's bye-bye the weaker performer - witness KLM at LPL.

As a general aside, perhaps you may wonder if Yorkshire passengers have been heading over to LPL seeing that the LPL growth in passenger numbers far outstrips what has happened at LBA.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 19:29
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That is the beauty of statistics. They go with damn lies! There are a few ways of measuring wealth and you have used one set. You take my point though Yorkshire and its region should not really be doing one seventh of MANs passengers on a level playing field should it? Then you add in the considerable NE, north midlands and Lincs passengers that would use a centrally positioned northerly airport.

Yes MAN will always be the main airport for the North now as no one will pay for a better placed airport between the conurbations.

It is down to strategy of running an airport such as when MAN didn't want loco operators and allowed LPL to rocket up to you from virtually zero. LBA has never been given a chance to show what it can do. If LBA can be invested in and surface access bettered to allow a critical mass of passengers to pass through it between 5 and 6 million then there would be a period of equalisation so that a Yorkshire airport would a be moving a more realistic 25-30% of the norths travelling passengers. There will be no long haul from LBA in its present position - the margins are too tight.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 20:00
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RobT100

Leeds is full there is no additional night parking to speak of so home base growth is going to be limited, long haul? apart from a few odd ball semi charters it won't happen, yes the likes of the 787/A350 can do it, but who is buying them? not Ryanair, not Jet2, so i see no chance of long haul schedule traffic, the wx is a threat, auto land on 32 is problematic for somes types and airlines and last time i check 14 was still cat1, it matters not that in most occasions you get in, you need extra fuel for two alternates and it screws the program if you divert, i have never not got into EMA/MAN due weather minima, i have diverted away from Leeds several times due low cloud and also crosswind.

A great regional airport,but its elevation, runway alignment & slope, climb out 32 obstacles, weather, surface transport all count against it, train from MAN to Leeds city centre is about an hour twenty, it can take 50 min from the airport to LCC down Kirkstall road any time from 7am to 10am.

Not a chance of it seeing 5m pax any time soon, it broke 3m (3.3) for the first time in 2013, but movement were 8000 less than in 2007
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 20:33
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HS3, in the next decade or so, should bring Leeds city centre within 20-25mins of MAN by train.

Plans supported by all northern councils, including Leeds and the others in West Yorkshire.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 20:52
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Yes Kurt & vice versa which is why LCC are really pushing for the LBA train station. Im not sure if its 1hour or 2hour or both but LBA has a bigger catchment area than MAN . If and it's a huge if the airport could be linked properly to the motorway system and gain train station it would have little problem getting the passenger volume . MAN airport managers know this and do not take it lightly.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 21:43
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Why do Leeds ATC think that you are ready to receive taxi instructions whilst you are still decelerating below 100kt?
Facelookbovverred , RW14 is still a Loc only approach with reasonably high mimina. The radar vectoring and control is not brilliant either.The track miles I was given the other night just did not make sense.

Last edited by tubby linton; 19th Oct 2014 at 22:29.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 21:51
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH:8704956
Yes Kurt & vice versa which is why LCC are really pushing for the LBA train station. Im not sure if its 1hour or 2hour or both but LBA has a bigger catchment area than MAN . If and it's a huge if the airport could be linked properly to the motorway system and gain train station it would have little problem getting the passenger volume . MAN airport managers know this and do not take it lightly.

Umm, you miss the point, Manchester airport IS at the heart of HS3 plans, Leeds Bradford airport never will be. There will not be direct, fast, high speed trains from Newcastle, Hull, Sheffield, Liverpool, Warrington, Crewe, Birmingham etc to LBA, ever. In a decade there will be centred on MAN.

I think you worry too much on behalf those running MAN, the future seems be large airports with many airports Manchester been benefiting from this for many now.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 22:18
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HS3 won't serve MAN so the argument is a bit irrelevant...
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 22:31
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See page 9 - MAN very much at the point where the rail comes together west of Pennines.



Edit. the little map on page 27 shows it better.





http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downloa...2093/one_north

Last edited by Manchester Kurt; 19th Oct 2014 at 22:42.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 22:43
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Leeds city rail station is the busiest after Birmingham in England (outside of London )& only behind Birmingham and Glasgow in Britain. The passenger numbers are rising at a much quicker rate than Birmingham or Glasgow. Connect this station directly up to LBA and suddenly the whole of the north of England has a very quick way to get straight to the airport could. It would take 10min from the centre of Leeds that of course will have a HS2line too. An LBA train station would be a game changer in the fight for potential northern air passengers.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 23:00
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It's absolutely amazing that a city that has just hosted the tour de France better than the French have ever done it can't get a 1 mile rail track built to its own airport while over the boarder a runway gets built that is not even used. Politics eh you can keep it.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 23:28
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Leeds Approach
Calm down and get your facts right before spouting off in all directions

Now I guess your going on about Manchester runway 23L, there is noway
MAN could handle the traffic in Morning, lunchtime and teatime with
1 runway without having large ammounts of holding both for landing and
takeoff in the summer and mornings and evening in winter.
Leeds does not have enough traffic to warrant a station and as we all know Manchester had to wait until it handled 10M pax

Ian
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Old 20th Oct 2014, 00:25
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Leeds Needs to move that Airport or build a spur off THE ECML and Buy oit DSA and Rename it Yorkshire Airport.
Leeds to Doncaster even on the Current ECML is very quick indeed. Reliable and comfortable.
And before you all shoot down the idea its not far from THE ECML there is a huge rail frieght and cargo mega complex being built right by the airport.
Why not buy peel out Upgrade The M1 down from the M180 TO THE A1 to Three lanes so car drivers have a clear run.
Leaving leeds is a breeze .
Once past the old A1 junction the M62 is quiet.
Dsa has huge tracts of land . A master plan which includes two bold on terminals and an air bridge or two.
There's a new Road going in .
They could build that a parkway station (they want Iike a free park and ride) Near Garforth somewhere so Leeds people could Park there with a train running onto the ECML . They could even call in a few Of the 125mph adalante trains used on the kings cross to Hull. Route.
Whisking passengers straight to DSA which id rename The Great Yorkshire Airport.
Close Teeside. And return the existing LBA to Perhaps a Business jet and Cargo Airport. .
DSA has the physical room, Space and ability to expand.
If yiu could move ops from LBA to there.
And it's not like it's not been done in the world look.at kai tak.
That was like leeds right in town. So they moved it thecsame distance.
It did loose Pax but it tripled throughput and numbers.
Granted DSA needs a bit of investment. But it's there now. Ready . Afik I though peel had secured planning for the two extensions which if you look at the terminal are connected by two link structures at each side.
I actually think DSA has issues because it's git too few airline parking stands. And neefs fresh input.
And before you really all say no indont be crazy.
A new Yorkshire airport. Has been mooted somewhere near Garforth in that near location on the New A1 (M) Or was it one of the tiny discussed RAF Stations.
Planning In the UK is ridiculous our infrastructure roads rails air all take decades of red tame endless enquiries changes of government. Years pass between any action.
Regarding HS2/3 and 4 (Which needs to link Scotland ) isn't coming to Yorkshire for another 20 years.
We need to have M'S Lobbying for work to start in the next 18 months and start building south .
Otherwise what's the point in stopping at BHX and no further.
But if it's taking that long for M'p's to sort that out.
A new Yorkshire airport won't be built for so long due to environmental studies . Public enquiries, Funding . Finding the exact spot.
Etc etc. Youl be lucky to see a spade in the ground by 2040.
By which time The current LBA will probably have peaked and fallen to low numbers as airlines recognise the location . Physical constraints.
(There isn't the room up there to build any more apron space and a satelite terminal forget it).
Its a bad location and a rail link won't fix it.
Dsa isn't growing to its strength and huge potential.
A huge flat site almost no WX issues compared to leeds.
Close to huge population centres.
And already able to handle Long Haul.
So maybe the council's and political parties of Yorkshire need to join to put together a master plan for a a Yorkshire airport.
Plus and finally on this epic post Amalgamating the Two Airport's (Once DSA) has tge extra aprons and terminals would have the ability to double passenger numbers over night as the combined routes of both airports all operating under one roof.
And amalgamating what's left of Teeside
Woukd make one heck of a draw for pax. And a serious contender of completion from Manchester.
It could even tempt some Manchester trade in Eg Emirates .
Less distance to fly.
And unlike Man Nice Flat Terrain.
Might sound crazy. But in this age of austerity why spend billions on pre planning . Land purchase legal battles environmental battles dragging it out for years when there's a near 10000 ft runway nr Three motorways. Closer to London .
Just waiting to be developed? .
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