LEEDS 5
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It's absolutely amazing that a city that has just hosted the tour de France better than the French have ever done it can't get a 1 mile rail track built to its own airport while over the boarder a runway gets built that is not even used. Politics eh you can keep it.
As for Ringway, trust me, it's a whole lot better to have an additional rwy ready even if it is unused ("under-used in the off-peak" may be more accurate). That way it's already there and ready when it is needed.
Am sure you'll agree that it's far better than the current Heathrow situation.
Leeds Needs to move that Airport or build a spur off THE ECML and Buy oit DSA and Rename it Yorkshire Airport.
And before you all shoot down the idea its not far from THE ECML there is a huge rail frieght and cargo mega complex being built right by the airport.
Why not buy peel out Upgrade The M1 down from the M180 TO THE A1 to Three lanes so car drivers have a clear run.
Why not buy peel out Upgrade The M1 down from the M180 TO THE A1 to Three lanes so car drivers have a clear run.
Whisking passengers straight to DSA which id rename The Great Yorkshire Airport.
Close Teeside. And return the existing LBA to Perhaps a Business jet and Cargo Airport. .
Close Teeside. And return the existing LBA to Perhaps a Business jet and Cargo Airport. .
If Yeadon is closed or GA/cargo only, you would need Teesside for pax in the north of the county.
DSA has the physical room, Space and ability to expand.
And it's not like it's not been done in the world look.at kai tak.
That was like leeds right in town. So they moved it thecsame distance.
That was like leeds right in town. So they moved it thecsame distance.
A new Yorkshire airport. Has been mooted somewhere near Garforth in that near location on the New A1 (M) Or was it one of the tiny discussed RAF Stations.
Planning In the UK is ridiculous our infrastructure roads rails air all take decades of red tame endless enquiries changes of government. Years pass between any action.
Regarding HS2/3 and 4 (Which needs to link Scotland ) isn't coming to Yorkshire for another 20 years.
Planning In the UK is ridiculous our infrastructure roads rails air all take decades of red tame endless enquiries changes of government. Years pass between any action.
Regarding HS2/3 and 4 (Which needs to link Scotland ) isn't coming to Yorkshire for another 20 years.
Otherwise what's the point in stopping at BHX and no further.
Dsa isn't growing to its strength and huge potential.
A huge flat site almost no WX issues compared to leeds.
A huge flat site almost no WX issues compared to leeds.
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But that is exactly what HS3 is planned to be, with MAN a major part of that despite what many on here have said.
Read through various documents from the 'Core Cities' they recognise will only be one major northern airport, they recognise it is in interests of all northern areas for that airport to be a great success.
Many on here seem to want a large airport for pride purposes, those decisions makers recognise access to a market, with the connections it brings, no matter where the airport is happens to be important, hence West and South Yorks along with Merseyside authorities support the growth of MAN alongside improved connections from their areas to the only major airport in the north - that is reality folks, not some wet dream about a new mega Yorks airport that would offer no more than is already available, but at huge cost.
Oh, HS3 planned to be completed by 2026, not in 20 years.
If HS2 doesn't go via the busiest (Manchester) and second busiest (Birmingham) intercity cities to remove their traffic from the busiest mix use railway on the planet, where would it go if you intended to remove intercity trains of that railway?
Read through various documents from the 'Core Cities' they recognise will only be one major northern airport, they recognise it is in interests of all northern areas for that airport to be a great success.
Many on here seem to want a large airport for pride purposes, those decisions makers recognise access to a market, with the connections it brings, no matter where the airport is happens to be important, hence West and South Yorks along with Merseyside authorities support the growth of MAN alongside improved connections from their areas to the only major airport in the north - that is reality folks, not some wet dream about a new mega Yorks airport that would offer no more than is already available, but at huge cost.
Oh, HS3 planned to be completed by 2026, not in 20 years.
If HS2 doesn't go via the busiest (Manchester) and second busiest (Birmingham) intercity cities to remove their traffic from the busiest mix use railway on the planet, where would it go if you intended to remove intercity trains of that railway?
Last edited by Manchester Kurt; 20th Oct 2014 at 05:52.
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Kurt -- I broadly agree with you except that just because the MP for Tatton floated an idea which won't cost him any money and a bunch of northern cities got their act together for once won't make HS3 happen and no chance in ten years. Look at HS2--- fifteen years for Phase 1 and a further six years for Phase 2. £2bn a year is all we can afford.
What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.
What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.
Tubby Linton,
I can't speak for the radar vectoring angle. However I remember about fifteen years ago there were complaints from the British Regional J41 crews about receiving taxi instructions during the landing roll. Reverse pitch on this aircraft is rather noisy so I suppose they had a point. My thoughts are that the lack of GMC and taxiways at Leeds could be "encouraging" the Tower controller to issue instructions as quickly as possible so they can deal with the next aircraft. Just my observation.
The best thing to do would be to telephone the ATC Watch Manager and raise your concerns and try to arrange a visit so you can see the controllers' perspective.
I can't speak for the radar vectoring angle. However I remember about fifteen years ago there were complaints from the British Regional J41 crews about receiving taxi instructions during the landing roll. Reverse pitch on this aircraft is rather noisy so I suppose they had a point. My thoughts are that the lack of GMC and taxiways at Leeds could be "encouraging" the Tower controller to issue instructions as quickly as possible so they can deal with the next aircraft. Just my observation.
The best thing to do would be to telephone the ATC Watch Manager and raise your concerns and try to arrange a visit so you can see the controllers' perspective.
Last edited by Mooncrest; 22nd Oct 2014 at 11:14.
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We'll see about HS3, but I'm expecting news in the autumn statement in early December that may surprise many on here.
Sorry if reality hurts, but Manchester airport is what it and that ain't changing, the direction travel more towards fewer larger airports with airlines consolidating into large airports.
Reality I'm afraid folks.
If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.
Sorry if reality hurts, but Manchester airport is what it and that ain't changing, the direction travel more towards fewer larger airports with airlines consolidating into large airports.
Reality I'm afraid folks.
If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.
Originally Posted by anothertyke:8705386
Kurt -- I broadly agree with you except that just because the MP for Tatton floated an idea which won't cost him any money and a bunch of northern cities got their act together for once won't make HS3 happen and no chance in ten years. Look at HS2--- fifteen years for Phase 1 and a further six years for Phase 2. £2bn a year is all we can afford.
What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.
What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.
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Even if there was the will,the money & the traffic to support major expansion at Leeds, it still couldn't happen, the land to the SSW of R32 is a large hill (behind Multiflight) further west there is housing, a factory, to the North there is the terminal, the old Avro factory, to the East the land slopes away rapidly, so the airport is hemmed in due to terrain and airport fixed infrastructure.
What could be done is a parallel taxiway, but even that would involve major bridge work over the access road and would eat into the apron area and we are talking 10's of millions, Leeds could probably grow to 5 million with current layout and a move to larger aircraft such as the 738 v 737 and A321 v 320 will help that
The only money needed would spent internally or car parking where you get a very quick return on money spent, that doesn't require vision or planning permission
It a good bucket & spades airport, but will never be a long haul hub
What could be done is a parallel taxiway, but even that would involve major bridge work over the access road and would eat into the apron area and we are talking 10's of millions, Leeds could probably grow to 5 million with current layout and a move to larger aircraft such as the 738 v 737 and A321 v 320 will help that
The only money needed would spent internally or car parking where you get a very quick return on money spent, that doesn't require vision or planning permission
It a good bucket & spades airport, but will never be a long haul hub
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A very sensible, reasoned and realistic assessment of the airport's future. Just hope that other's can see the sense in what is said rather than pursuing a fantasy that Leeds can compete with airports that have better infra-structure and established operators. To those talking about rail links to the existing airport or a new airport for Yorkshire - get real.
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Oh, HS3 planned to be completed by 2026, not in 20 years.
If HS2 doesn't go via the busiest (Manchester) and second busiest (Birmingham) intercity cities to remove their traffic from the busiest mix use railway on the planet, where would it go if you intended to remove intercity trains of that railway?
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Are you sure? That would make it HS2.
Yep, plan for HS3 to be done before HS2 Ph1.
Look at a map, it's one hell of a dog leg. Surely Birmingham should be on a spur? The capacity crunch on the WCML will be at the southern end (London-Rugby).
HS2 is not going into Brum, rather the airport, Brum city itself is on a spur.
Yes, the south end is about reducing capacity constraints south of Rugby, but also into Brum, Manc, Leeds etc.
The north end of HS2 is about connectivity and reducing that congestion into those cities, best way to improve connectivity between Manc & Leeds with Brum is by taking HS2 close by, so you can take Manc to Brum services off the overly crowded WCML (overly full, over slow) trains and put them onto the new HS2 line - thereby creating free'd capacity on the WCML for new commuter services into both Brum and Manc (obviously same applies to Leeds).
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LBIA access improvement feasability study
The consultants report is utter claptrap. They cant even get their own address right although writing Manchester is probably a sideways joke as their assessment will only favour Manchester Airport.
The Government do not want the people of Yorkshire to be able to use their own airport because if a train link is provided from, soon to be, Britain's busiest railway station outside of London- the airport will grow remarkably and then money would HAVE to be spent on the whole local 1900s local road infrastructure. They cant have that when they've spent so much on making everyone East of the pennines use Manchester airport. Here in Yorkshire we are treated as second class citizens. One of the biggest conurbations in western Europe denied proper access to its own airport.
Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?
The Government do not want the people of Yorkshire to be able to use their own airport because if a train link is provided from, soon to be, Britain's busiest railway station outside of London- the airport will grow remarkably and then money would HAVE to be spent on the whole local 1900s local road infrastructure. They cant have that when they've spent so much on making everyone East of the pennines use Manchester airport. Here in Yorkshire we are treated as second class citizens. One of the biggest conurbations in western Europe denied proper access to its own airport.
Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?
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Actually on a quick scan that report could do with a proper proof read ( A64 link road to the airport when they mean A65, Poole is in Dorset etc), but I suspect the gripe from Leeds Approach is really about the comprehensive demolition by WSP of the case for a rail link to the airport which has always been an utterly hopeless basket case. If anything the surprise is that the road link stands up as well as it does ; might have a chance now.
The Government do not want the people of to be able to use their own airport because if a train link is provided from, soon to be, Britain's busiest railway station outside of London- the airport will grow remarkably and then money would HAVE to be spent on the whole local 1900s local road infrastructure. They cant have that when they've spent so much on making everyone East of the pennines use Manchester airport. Here in Yorkshire we are treated as second class citizens. One of the biggest conurbations in western Europe denied proper access to its own airport.
Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?
Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?
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Well the consultants have now corrected their address on the official document to read Leeds instead of Manchester. My consultancy bill is in the post to them.
The only thing they've demolished is any possible reputation they've established for accuracy! It doesn't matter whether you live in Leeds, Sheffield, York or even Penzance when you see basic errors like this you lose all respect.
The report proves absolutely zero and is nothing more than guesswork. The reason why the government don't want to link LBIA to the rail network and Leeds city station (one of Britains busiest) is for the reasons I've already stated ie It would very much be the thin end of the wedge.
Someone in Middlesbrough or Hull for example jump on a train and get off at Manchester airport. They would prefer to get off at Leeds Bradford airport saving fare and time. This would be replicated from many many places in west, south and east Yorkshire and large parts of the North East. This is why there is so much leakage from our region to Manchester airport.
Lets not talk about the government trotted out phrase of 'poor value for money' because the government have not spent any money in Yorkshire for years that is why, as the report shows, only 22% of population within 10miles of LBIA can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Almost double the amount of population within 10miles of Manchester can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Leeds figures are even worse when compared to BHX and NCL. Hundreds of thousands of people live within 10 miles of LBIA- and those people are not having a fair amount of money spent on them compared to other cities.
The public transport system in West Yorkshire has been underfunded for years by the government and these figures make this astonishingly clear. No underground, no tram (denied), underfunded railway network. It's a wonder were not still on routemasters in Leeds. The whole network is grinding to a halt and so it is very much in their interest to force passengers to travel from where they have spent money ie Manchester.
The only thing they've demolished is any possible reputation they've established for accuracy! It doesn't matter whether you live in Leeds, Sheffield, York or even Penzance when you see basic errors like this you lose all respect.
The report proves absolutely zero and is nothing more than guesswork. The reason why the government don't want to link LBIA to the rail network and Leeds city station (one of Britains busiest) is for the reasons I've already stated ie It would very much be the thin end of the wedge.
Someone in Middlesbrough or Hull for example jump on a train and get off at Manchester airport. They would prefer to get off at Leeds Bradford airport saving fare and time. This would be replicated from many many places in west, south and east Yorkshire and large parts of the North East. This is why there is so much leakage from our region to Manchester airport.
Lets not talk about the government trotted out phrase of 'poor value for money' because the government have not spent any money in Yorkshire for years that is why, as the report shows, only 22% of population within 10miles of LBIA can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Almost double the amount of population within 10miles of Manchester can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Leeds figures are even worse when compared to BHX and NCL. Hundreds of thousands of people live within 10 miles of LBIA- and those people are not having a fair amount of money spent on them compared to other cities.
The public transport system in West Yorkshire has been underfunded for years by the government and these figures make this astonishingly clear. No underground, no tram (denied), underfunded railway network. It's a wonder were not still on routemasters in Leeds. The whole network is grinding to a halt and so it is very much in their interest to force passengers to travel from where they have spent money ie Manchester.
Wow! The public transport network in Leeds has been deliberately underfunded as part of a Government conspiracy to force people to use Manchester Airport - who'd have guessed?
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It's not a conspiracy. It's called saving money. Better to spend money on crossrail etc than on northern outposts.
Eventually though people have enough of being short changed. That's the point of my rant. The figures in this report (which in my opinion is complete waste of money) clearly show, beyond any doubt, that West Yorkshire has been short changed in regard to its transport infrastructure. It languishes not by a few percent but massive percentages.
A 10 year old could tell you that £billions need to be thrown at it now not a few filter bus lanes.
Funny isn't it that in this day and age where the government are pushing the public to use public transport this report is asking for a road to be built first - that's how far behind we are.
Leeds planned to be connected to HS2 and HS3 and yet you cant even get to its own airport despite a railway line running very close by.
Eventually though people have enough of being short changed. That's the point of my rant. The figures in this report (which in my opinion is complete waste of money) clearly show, beyond any doubt, that West Yorkshire has been short changed in regard to its transport infrastructure. It languishes not by a few percent but massive percentages.
A 10 year old could tell you that £billions need to be thrown at it now not a few filter bus lanes.
Funny isn't it that in this day and age where the government are pushing the public to use public transport this report is asking for a road to be built first - that's how far behind we are.
Leeds planned to be connected to HS2 and HS3 and yet you cant even get to its own airport despite a railway line running very close by.
Do you really believe that lack of a direct rail link is all that's holding LBIA back? I would have thought that the space constraints and terrain are far more fundamental issues. As a taxpayer, I wouldn't want large sums of public money spent on a vanity exercise for a privately owned business.
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Leeds Approach
I admire your passion for your local airport but you have to be realistic about what is possible, LBIA is hemmed in on all sides by either property, roads or land that isn't practical to build on.
Whilst in theory a tunnel and rail link could be made into the Leeds/Harrogate rail line it just isn't a practical proposition given the costs mainly off the back of the very different elevations, there isn't space at Horsforth rail station to make any meaningful link, its in a cutting and again surrounded by housing. A link to Guiseley would pose similar problems.
LBIA maximum capacity without a full length parallel runway and given the types of aircraft using it is probably no more than 5-6m a year and given the bulk of its traffic is bucket and spades on a weeks vacation, most of whom will get a cab or self drive a train link is a non starter.
Whilst in theory a tunnel and rail link could be made into the Leeds/Harrogate rail line it just isn't a practical proposition given the costs mainly off the back of the very different elevations, there isn't space at Horsforth rail station to make any meaningful link, its in a cutting and again surrounded by housing. A link to Guiseley would pose similar problems.
LBIA maximum capacity without a full length parallel runway and given the types of aircraft using it is probably no more than 5-6m a year and given the bulk of its traffic is bucket and spades on a weeks vacation, most of whom will get a cab or self drive a train link is a non starter.
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Agree with the last two posters.
I think a shuttle bus from Horsforth Stn could be worth trying at low cost.
There is room for one weak hub in the North and that is Manchester. Collectively we gain more from a strong European and long distance network out of Mcr with good ground connections than by diffusing the frequencies. At the next level down from Manchester, there are Newcastle, Liverpool and Leeds where the priorities are good connections to various hubs (AMS, LHR, DUB, CDG, DXB in one case) and a good range of holiday destinations, city as well as beach. If their regional economies grow, they will grow provided they have capacity.
There is room for growth at Leeds 80% of the hours in the year, but without investment by Bridgepoint inside the fence, we must be close to capacity in terms of based planes and peak operations in the crucial summer months.
I think a shuttle bus from Horsforth Stn could be worth trying at low cost.
There is room for one weak hub in the North and that is Manchester. Collectively we gain more from a strong European and long distance network out of Mcr with good ground connections than by diffusing the frequencies. At the next level down from Manchester, there are Newcastle, Liverpool and Leeds where the priorities are good connections to various hubs (AMS, LHR, DUB, CDG, DXB in one case) and a good range of holiday destinations, city as well as beach. If their regional economies grow, they will grow provided they have capacity.
There is room for growth at Leeds 80% of the hours in the year, but without investment by Bridgepoint inside the fence, we must be close to capacity in terms of based planes and peak operations in the crucial summer months.