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Old 16th Apr 2014, 11:50
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I doubt it would be fully loaded if they did use an A333. It's just too big for the route which is why I didn't think the 777 was ever an option. Shaheen used A310s as well and went 3 weekly before their leases ran out and they couldn't renew. A 787 or 767 would probably be best suited or 757 if it has the range though it may be a bit tight.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 13:14
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LBA-ISB is considerably shorter than some of the 757's routes which beat it by a good 350 miles. The only problem might be Jet2's high density configuration, Leeds having quite a short runway (shouldn't be too much bother for the mighty 757, but Muslims don't travel light from what I've seen at NCL) and Islamabad being hot and quite high.

Apart from that if Pakistan let them in 3/4 weekly on a 757 could work... They would probably need to buy another 757 though, 757 200ER?
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 13:42
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When I said tight I meant in the cabin being a non wide body, not range though it would be tight. Their current 752Ws would be ok but the cabin would need reconfiguring for a regular service to ISB. Runway at LBA should be fine for 752Ws to ISB but could restrict payload on hot no wind days, though 14 departures should help here. Of course the biggest problem would be getting approval from Pakistan for the service. This is why I don't see it happening unless Air Blue or Shaheen are interested.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 13:49
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Pakistan is a notoriously low-yield market; very price sensitive. There are also significant security implications for UK carriers. Jet2 recently dropped MAN-TLV - another route with high security requirements which does not have any synergies with sister company Jet2Holidays. TLV demand was not a problem. Jet2 focus is increasingly moving towards holiday destinations. Islamabad would be a surprising choice.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 15:40
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Apart from that if Pakistan let them in 3/4 weekly on a 757 could work...
Na, it couldn't. It would need a trailer fitting to the 757 for all the baggage.
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 08:00
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PIA has always been a high maintenance contract for the airport management, not least given the airline is run more akin to a political party and changes in leadership and strategy are common. It was considered to be worth the effort as it helped the airport management and the new owners to present their case that there is life beyond Manchester. In that sense then it has been helpful and the decent loads and strong vocal support from the community has achieved the aim of proving people prefer a local option. Hopefully this can continue to be leveraged, not just for getting people to the sub-continent, but across other markets too.
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 11:00
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They would probably need to buy another 757 though, 757 200ER?
Could you clarify what a 757-200ER is? I wouldn't exactly consider the 752W as the ER model (which was proposed but never built)

Last edited by Charlie98; 17th Apr 2014 at 12:00.
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 11:05
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Try copying 757-200ER into Google, plenty of info there !
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 11:23
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Couldn't Jet2 lease a suitable aircraft? .
With their pricing I bet they would make a fortune ..
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 17:29
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onyx I think the answer has already appeared, it is low yield and that is why Jet2 probably would not want to do it.
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Old 18th Apr 2014, 13:55
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Yes but I think Jet2 being a well established and recognised brand would attract a wider audience.
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Old 18th Apr 2014, 15:09
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Doesn't matter how wide the audience is if the yield is low. As is often said correctly on these forums it doesn't matter if all the seats re full if your not making money on those bums on seats then it isn't worth doing.

Truth is Shaheen tried it, PIA tried it, if the yield was good then we would be seeing the PK 777 at LBA, but we aren't.
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Old 18th Apr 2014, 15:20
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A little unfair. Shaheen only gave up because they couldn't renew the lease on their A310. PIA were doing it for a couple of years fine with the A310, agreed they clearly wanted to move the operation to MAN to save costs but the chief booking agent in Bradford was not best pleased. The demand is plainly there to use the A310 but probably not a 777. Remember too Shaheen went 3 weekly before they were forced to pull out through lack of equipment.
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Old 18th Apr 2014, 16:08
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Wasn't my intention to be unfair, rather realistic. PK may have moved to Manchester to consolidate their services. However MAN has also lost Air Blue which is another indicator of the difficulties inherent in this particular market
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 11:56
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So much for LBAs first 777 then.All PIA hot air to get around their constant noise breaches because of their late arrival/departures.
The upgrade to 777 was a firm committment on behalf of PIA and it had been through proper approval and sign-off from both the business and operational sides in PIA. LBA had made some necessary airside changes too to accommodate this. There was then one of the regular management changes in PIA and they decided on a different strategy - namely to consolidate into MAN. Cue some lobbying from the airport and the local community around Bradford and the service was retained, albeit with the A310.

As for 'constant' noise breeches, this has no impact on PIA whatsoever. The planning restrictions relating to chapter 2 aircraft are enforceable on the airport company, not any of the airlines. Authority to allow chapter 2 departures out of hours has to be given by a senior representative of the airport company. It was only ever a handful each year, so 'constant' is probably something of an exaggeration.

Seems to me that with Air Blue out of the way and a disposal plan drawn up for the A310s, it's just a case of things aligning in favour of consolidation at MAN. The market will still be there in the LBA catchment so, as I said previously, it's something to work with.
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 14:05
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Call me an old cynic but PIA did operate PK775/6 with a 777 but flight planned it to MAN. Maybe the airport hadn't made the necessary changes by that point or maybe they didn't have crews trained to operate from our dodgy runway.
I am aware that it was not PIAs problem re noise but it seemed that this made them look at the 777 knowing the 310s were coming to the end of their useful life. Air Blue still exist but only have A320s. Shaheen only have A330-300s for LH so neither are likely to take up the mantle.
It's sad that we are back to locals travelling to MAN but hopefully the loss of those will be not too bad on the pax growth we have seen over the last few years. I was hoping that after PIA had used LBA with 777 then we may have seen the odd BA one on diversion instead of them over flying us on the way to NCL, a bit like when AF showed BA it was possible with Concorde.

Last edited by HOODED; 21st Apr 2014 at 17:24.
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 14:27
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Wonder what the economics of an A310 over say a 767 are, as I would have thought there would be a few of them about for these sorts of routes. IMO however I think thats the last we've seen of a Pakistan route ex LBA
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 17:53
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I'm sure a 767-200 would work, but 767-300s being bigger but more easy to come by would be more likely if they were viable.
Problem is the ideal aircraft for the route would be the 787-8 but PIA are not exactly in a great place as a company and therefore not rolling in cash.
PIA will consolidate at MAN and customers will just have to go there if the want to go to Pakistan or go via somewhere.
Do PIA actually plan to replace their A310s? 4 of the 8 were leased from Airbus, or are they just dropping flights all over the network?
If anyone took on the route from LBA it would only hurt PIA out of MAN but it seems to me they probably had to make the decision with the A310 leaving the fleet. Sad but there you are.
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Old 23rd Apr 2014, 20:23
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Anyone know why tonight's PIA dropped into AMS on it's way in to LBA?
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Old 23rd Apr 2014, 20:31
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Low fuel according to a mate at Servisair.
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