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Old 14th Dec 2014, 13:37
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A quick look at my mapping suggests that the railway station is around 116m asl the airport around 200m so its either one hell of a cutting or a tunnel, the current tunnel towards harrogate runs less than a mile from the airport, but i think the line actually runs slightly down hill toward the Arthington viaduct, if so the drop could well be 90+m

Going back to costs, trying to break into a Victorian tunnel and excavate and area to build a points system with branch into the airport is frankly a non starter, it would be far far cheaper to put on a free shuttle bus from the Horsforth station to the airport its 5 minutes by road, but the traffic around the Old Ball is a joke

This below from the Sunday Times

THE field of contenders to build London’s super-sewer has shrunk to two after bidders pulled out of the auction for the lead role in the £4.2bn project.

Thames Water is planning a 15½-mile tunnel to take untreated waste that would otherwise flow into the river.

Last edited by Facelookbovvered; 14th Dec 2014 at 13:41. Reason: new info
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 13:56
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Facelookbovvered,
If the railway link was completely out of the question it would not have been selected by consultants for medium term investigation.


You really need a good knowledge of the immediate topography around LBIA and the arc the potential line would take from a junction between horsforth station and the bramhope tunnel up to the airport. Yes their would be an incline but not an insurmountable one. A quick look on googal will not work.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 14:14
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If you're arriving and departing in your own vehicle, it's OK. If you're getting a taxi to your ultimate destination, it's pretty outstanding.


If you're picking up a rental car, it's a miserable experience especially in winter. The cars are in a cold sink car park and poorly prepped. The path to the rental car park is inadequately maintained. If you rent from a company with a rent/return on an empty tank policy, you're screwed because there appear to be no real gas stations in the neighborhood. This is all stuff that can be fixed by simply "doing things better". The offsite meet & greets are of dubious capability and flexibility. It's taken me close to a decade of rentals to find a company that actually gets it right.


Then there's simply the fog issue and number of diverts. I've flown into LBA and ended up at Manchester, Tyne Tees or East Midlands. I really want LBA to work, but it needs to deliver an outstanding experience simply to compensate for its weather issues. Once you're diverted, everything else falls apart: you get bussed back to LBA, it's the middle of the night, everything's shut down and it's not their problem.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 14:30
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
Whatever it costs should be divided over the last 30 years aswell as future years. The investment that that rail link would have brought to the region if built when the runway extension was completed would be immense. The business men that travel on trains over the pennines to use AF, LH, SN, SAS etc etc would not have been spent boosting the Manchester economy but would have boosted the Yorkshire economy. The families, literally millions of them every year from Yorkshire alone plus Hull Grimsby Middlesbrough all spending less to get to Leeds instead of Manchester-take that money off the cost too. All those extra train seats over the pennines that did not really need to be used if only a short spur of railway had been built.
There's some absolutely extraordinary, and completely unproven assumptions here.

You assume that millions of passengers prefer to take the train to the airport rather than drive.
Even if they did, you assume that the mast majority of those would head for LBIA rather than Manchester if only there were a direct rail link.
You assume that the extra cost of travelling to Manchester Airport by train is significant enough to put travellers off doing so if there were an alternative.
You assume that lower costs to travel to LBIA would somehow contribute towards the costs of a rail link (for the life of me I can't figure that one out.....)
And you assume that building of a rail link to LBIA would create spare capacity on the Trans-Pennine Line.

I know this must hurt, but has it ever occurred to you that that having a railway station at Manchester Airport that air travellers can travel to from throughout Northern England works well. Sufficiently well, in fact, that it eliminates any need for a rail link to LBIA.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 14:51
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Leeds Approach

The technological challenges won't stop it being built, the financial challenges will.

So back to the question, how much do you think it will cost to build and perhaps more importantly who should fund it?

How long do you think they would have to shut the tunnel for whilst this work is on ongoing? bearing in mind that the closer to the tunnel you put a cutting the deeper the cut
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 15:06
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Andy S I could not have won the argument any better than the way you've just won it for me. 'It works well at manchester and is not really needed at Leeds'-you don't work for MAG do you!? Better connections to LBIA will without any doubt take millions of passengers from the whole of Eastern northern England off the cross pennine road and rail network. The balance was always going to be redressed given time and it will hurt Manchester airport. The ratio of passengers will not be 6/7 to 1 in future years and in honesty it never should have been.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 15:16
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The government did not want the Tour de France in Yorkshire - they wanted it in Scotland. They(consultants) said it would cost far too much and be a complete flop. Luckilly some belligerent yorkie new better. Conservative estimates say it created 4 to 5 times the amount it cost. The true worth to Yorkshire will never be known. It really is time the government stopped throwing notes into manchesters cap and put a few bob Leeds way.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 15:48
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
...you don't work for MAG do you!?
No. In fact I have no horse in this particular race. I just try and look at things from a practical and objective perspective.

I think you missed the whole point about my remarks pertaining to Manchester Airport Station. LBIA won't get a rail link because no government is going to fund one when there's an existing rail link via Leeds to another airport in the North of England.

You suggest you "won" this particular argument. I think you lost it when you dismissed the costs and technical challenges of a rail link as an issue.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 16:17
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I've not dismissed the cost or complexity - I've just stated that it will more than pay for itself. You want to deny the people of one region (huge in its own right) that which another region has been given. By its very nature its unfair and voters will not put up with unfairness. We all pay taxes and those taxes should not just favour certain regions. I don't know about clarty waters but here in Yorkshire we've been poorly treated when it comes to transport infrastructure spend.

From a practical and objective perspective you will surely see that there is enough people who live east of the pennines to warrant the reasonable road and rail connection to an existing airport that has been encouraged to expand.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 16:42
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Sorry to intrude on your war of the roses

From the few times i have operated through Leeds it seems that the road network to the South, West, North and East is very good, but towards the airport its like an obstacle course, the only bit of dual carriage way within miles is the few 100m under the airport runway, I can't really think of another airport so badly served by the road network, yet the city transport links are excellent.

Personally my view whilst not in the least bit helpful is that its in the wrong place
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 16:57
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We all pay taxes and those taxes should not just favour certain regions. I don't know about clarty waters but here in Yorkshire we've been poorly treated when it comes to transport infrastructure spend.
Yes, you haven't got a motorway to Newcastle...


(and that's me taking the p*** from a North East perspective about Yorkshire moaning about transport infrastructure spend)
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 17:04
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Out of curiosity Leeds Approach, how many passengers do you envisage using a Leeds Airport railway station? The station at MAN handles approx 4 million per year when the passenger throughput at the airport is around 21-22 million and as was mentioned earlier, only started to operate in 1993 when passengers numbers were around treble what the current Leeds numbers are.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 17:30
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The main problem is - there are no motorways near LBA nor likely to be due to geography and urban sprawl. When the Pudsey to Dishforth/A1 motorway was cancelled many decades ago the last chance went. The link to A65 is possible, although not dual carriageway. Thus the next option is a either a rail halt on the main Harrogate -Leeds line or a possible spur up to the airport.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 17:44
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When it comes to connection to local population NCL is right at the top of the list - so stop moaning!

The airport is badly served by the road network and yes the airport's intra West Yorks. position is not ideal this is exactly why the link road as an absolute bare minimum should be built- to avoid the obstacle course.

I believe MAN has had a slight dip during the last 5 or so years? Wasn't it up to 23 million around 2008? So basically ringwayman the fact that there was a choice of mode of arrival to MAN after the station was built made the airport all the more attractive to potential passengers. When booking holidays the fact that you can if you choose to use the train makes you book the flight from MAN. The same can be said about having a motorway to your front door. Man more than doubled its passenger throughput in 15 years ish. They did not all arrive by train but the government had encouraged them to somehow get to the airport. Go on 10 years and instead of more flights to Ibiza you now have flights to china. That's how having good connections helps airports and regions. Its not about how many people go through the train station its the money they spend in the shops and bars at the airport that create the jobs whose wages are then spent in Salford or stockport instead of headingley or ilkley. There is also the fact that there would be people who live near to LBIA who would use the rail link to get to Leeds quicker - I am not sure if many do that from MAN train station. It is incredibly difficult to calculate the monetary benefit of rail link to LBIA in terms of what it would do for the region in general.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 18:48
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LEEDS APPROACH

When it comes to connection to local population NCL is right at the top of the list - so stop moaning!
I wasn't discussing NCL, but yes NCL has a Metro link to the city centre and the mainline station, and a dual carriage connection south (even though it is ranked as one of the most congested in the country) but going north the dual carriageway stops at Morpeth and west at Hexham. Hardly extensive. Remind me what a motorway is again?

So I was talking about the broader regional transport infrastructure, where Yorkshire seems, from a North East perspective, to be doing just fine - so stop moaning.
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 07:57
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West Yorks combined authority

Leeds Approach is very funny, but there is good news for him on the way.


As with all Metropolitan areas West Yorks is being offered more control over transport (amongst other things) and will be a key part of Transport for the North that will have a major influence over the railways in the north.

Effectively, if road improvements or a rail link to the airport are deemed to be of significant importance locally, then those locally elected representatives (including possibly a West Yorks mayor depending on what form of governance is arrived at) will have the power and cash to prioritise these items.


I doubt they will.
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 09:40
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Effectively, if road improvements or a rail link to the airport are deemed to be of significant importance locally, then those locally elected representatives (including possibly a West Yorks mayor depending on what form of governance is arrived at) will have the power and cash to prioritise these items.

I doubt they will.
Not so sure personally. The Executive Board of Leeds City Council met in October to discuss the level of support they should show to LBA, the summary of which is below. The resolutions were all carried so we wait to see what that means in reality.


Summary of main issues
1. In the modern economy successful businesses and cities need a global outlook and strong international connections. The economic competitiveness of Leeds City Region will depend partly on the future sustainable growth of Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBIA). A more extensive airline route network and better surface transport access will enhance the ability of Leeds City Region and its businesses to access global markets and attract inward investment and tourism. LBIA is already a huge asset for Leeds and Leeds City Region. It is one of the UK’s fastest growing airports, supporting over 2,600 jobs and contributing £98.5m to the city region economy. However, it has the potential to contribute much more.

2. The airport is used currently by 3.3m passengers per year. The Department for Transport (DfT) has forecast that there is the potential to increase this to 7.3m by 2030 and to above 9 million passengers per year by 2050. There is potential to expand the airport’s route network to open up new international connections, supporting international trade and creating new jobs. Better transport connections are needed to grow the airport’s catchment and to enable its growth. There are opportunities to develop sustainably the area around the airport to strengthen its role as an economic hub.

3. However, this potential will not be realised without clear leadership and policies of the Council. This needs to cover topics including support for the expansion of the airport’s route network, better transport links, future land-use strategy and planning policies, and employment and skills. It will be important that future proposals for the growth of the airport are considered within the Council’s policy framework to promote sustainable development. There is also a need for the airport to engage closely with local communities and work in partnership with the Council to ensure the benefits from its growth are realised widely and potential adverse impacts of the airport’s growth are managed and mitigated.

4. It is important that Leeds City Council develops a clear and coherent policy approach to support the sustainable growth of LBIA and to maximise its positive economic role. To do this the Council needs to adopt the following main policy principles:

a. The Council will develop a coherent policy approach that supports the sustainable growth of LBIA and seeks to maximise the economic and jobs benefits for Leeds and Leeds City region;

b. The Council will support growth and expansion of the Airport’s route network to enhance the international connectivity of Leeds and Leeds City Region;

c. The Council will support the development of proposals for better surface access to LBIA to support its growth and enable it to widen its catchment, subject to robust business cases being made for transport proposals with an appropriate package of financial contributions;

d. The Council will consider the future land-use strategy surrounding the Airport in the context of existing planning policies and future growth, demand, sustainable development considerations and environmental constraints in the context of the Airport Masterplan;

e. The Council will encourage and support LBIA and businesses based there in connecting people with jobs (including through apprenticeships and skills programmes); and

f. The Council will encourage and support LBIA to engage closely with the local community and to work in a positive partnership with the Council and others
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 17:30
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Well, they would wouldn't they? How much money did they vote to spend? Thought not...
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 07:21
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB:8784136
Well, they would wouldn't they? How much money did they vote to spend? Thought not...
Exactly, the days of bidding for funding from the DfT for funding of local schemes are over, trolley bus in Leeds being the final scheme progressed in this manner.

For Leeds Approach to see his wishes met his local politicians need to prioritise these plans and direct funding towards them, so far we not seen anything to suggest these are top of the list of funding to the best of my knowledge.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 09:23
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Very topical
News / £1.4bn programme of transport improvements announced THEBUSINESSDESK.COM

Seems the local elected representatives in West Yorks don't share same priorities as some on here.
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