Aer Lingus - 5

[racedo]

How's about EI's short haul going over to Ryanair and Aer Lingus becoming
the news Long haul Airline Ryanair want to launch .

Daz its the way I see it working and realistically the only long term way AL will exist.

The clearing Immigration / Customs and US DFA deal Ireland now has with the US makes a good case for Ryanair flights to feed into AL flying to the US from Ireland knowing you land you are treated as a domestic passenger.

Agree MOL is a very good businessman and people ignore that because he is so upfront. Just need to look at who the rest of the board are to see the experience there.

[PPRNkof]

tonyryan - bite me!

If there's excrement about, it's spewing from your mouth! I wonder why you're so petulant and nasty. It really gets my goat up that your tone is so nasty, bitchy I would say describes it best. I'd recommend you go take a walk, clear your head.

There have been several occassions recently where the threat of strikes (called off eventually) has caused the AL customers some worry. I don't have dates etc. for each of these events which will please you I'm sure, Mr Pedantic, so off ya go on another rant. The end result is that customer who want a reliable service will be wary of AL - particulary business travellers. This is not good for AL or it's shareholders.

I would hate to see AL disappear, I would like to see it's future secured. I think this is a good option and could work. I appreciate however, that there are no guarantees. That's my only motivation in this.

As a matter of interest, if there are any FR cabin crew or pilots on this thread, could you indicate how you find working for FR? I know one or two who are and they're happy and like the money (and the security). Anyone?

[daz211]

The problem with Aer Lingus is !

The Airline has no clue what it is and what it offers, the passengers sure have'nt got a clue.

The name.
How European and transatlantic friendly is the NAME Aer Lingus ? I dont want to upset any Irish people BUT using AER and not AIR is not very user friendly to a global market also LINGUS what is it? what's the name about ?
the product.
what type of Airline are they ?
National Airline ?
Flag carrier ?
Low cost Airline ?
European Airline ?
Transatlantic Airline ?

Please dont say all, as all the above in one Airline will not work in the currrent state this industry is in.

This just cant be my opinion, if you asked 100 people outside Ireland
to spell AerLingus how may could, how many people know what they offer how many people know anything about the brand at all ?

Im no Airline tycoon but I would have thought a strong Name and Brand
was high on the list of any Airline.

Yes I know the name and brand is strong in Ireland but that takes me back to the product question.

[Skipness One Echo]

AER and not AIR is not very user friendly to a global market also LINGUS what is it? what's the name about ?

There speaks "igorant" of Colchester.

"I mean Aeroflot? Never heard of them. They Russian?
QANTAS? Hah they missed the "u" !
KLM - That's not even a word!
TAROM tetumtetum ha ha.
CSA - what're the Child Support Agency doing flying to Prague?
I know lots I do"

*cough* etc etc

Im no Airline tycoon

No **** Sherlock! Get out and see the world. Some of the posts on here just beggar belief.

[daz211]

So you dont agree with my points then.

Qantas and KLM are very WELL known Airlines and brands world wide.
Tarom is not.

Take you Airline head off and think about it Airlines are trying to gain more passengers thats joe public not people who know about Airlines and while we are at it, is there any need to get so personal this is a place where I thought people could comment and air their thoughts.

[840]

I think the name was unfortunate because once they were going down the route of using Irish, they may as well have stuck to the whole lot in Irish - Aer Loingeas

But I don't think the whole thing is a major marketing problem

After all, click on www.airlingus.com and see where you end up.

[Tom the Tenor]

Ah lads, lads, remember a lot of this recession is down to the oil speculators and a lot of hot aer to boot!

Some good news now - the inaugural Aer Lingus flight from Cork to Geneva flew out this morning with EI-DEN having the honours. Wonder will there be a picture in De Paper tomorrow with the crew being presented with a crystal bowl!?

She Who Must be Obeyed and I are off out on the same flight on Saturday am. Some proper Duty Free - ha!

[oneinthemirror]

dont you mean aer their thoughts?

[Skipness One Echo]

Informed thoughts not empty headed notions.

TAROM is a well known name in the markets it serves, it is NOT a global carrier like KLM and QANTAS. Aer Lingus is much the same. It serves it's home country and points beyond, leaving the OneWorld Alliance as without a focus on high yield connecting traffic it wasn't worth the fees.

When people think Ireland, they think Aer Lingus before Ryanair. Most of the Ryanair program is flown outside of Eire entirely.

Anyway don't mind me as I'm full of hot aer....

[daz211]

skipness

I would say AerLingus springs to mind to the Irish but would beg to differ further a field as in Europe if you were to ask which Irish Airline have you heard of most would say Ryanair.

Why not re-brand as Air Ireland (what it says on the tin).

"O" and 840 thanks for the link using AIRLINGUS surely that proves my piont that when people look for AERLINGUS they type AIR.

[EI-BUD]

Everybody hates Ryanair - Media because BA and others look after them with free ungrades etc so their failings are quickly forgotten, MEPs because they stick one finger up to them again and again.

Racedo, I disagree that 'everybody' hates Ryanair, yes they get alot of bad press. But alot of people know the great things that they have done which has been well documented here and in the media over the years.

They have in the 80s/90s turned would be immigrants into commuters, especially in rural parts of Ireland where they needed links to the UK, they created jobs and put Dublin on the map as a choice destination for Short breaks (not suggesting that Dublin is the best of short break destinations). I think it was January 07 that Dublin was in the top 3 city break destinations for European tourists and Ryanair have a big part to play in this.

Pre Ryanairs arrivals the annual pax from Dublin were 1m per year, cheap fares did not exist, today the pax totals is in the 20 millions, i think about 24m. WHich is a staggering total considering the population of the island. And yes it is arguable that the numbers would have grown but prior to Ryanair's arrival Ireland was a closed shop unless you were BA/EI.

Apart from all that Ryanair created competition that Aer Lingus had to shape up for. At this time Aer Lingus is a very different animal than it was ,work to do on costs but it has come a long long way. So Ryanair have alot to be proud of.

Enough about that rant, but racedo, Alot of people think that Ryanair are great, and alot of people are guided by the media who love to zoom in on Ryanair and its shortcomings. It is also amazing that despite the bad press and 'everybody hating Ryanair' passenger number have continued to grow and Ryanair continue to attract passengers from other airlines.

Yes I prefer BA/EI but I also like to keep my cost low so Ryanair often fits the bill and whats more I have always found Ryanair to be low on price, clear on its offer, punctual, new plane and the charges dont apply to me. Ie check in online carry on luggage, i have an electron card so for me Ryanair is truly a low cost option!

In Ireland we have big decisions being made by people who simply shouldnt be allowed to make these decisions in government. How on earth can a 2nd terminal cost €1 Billion when a terminal in Hahn by Ryanair Costed only €50m for the exact same passenger numbers, ( I dont think that T2 at Dublin should be so cheap it needs to be more than a low cost basic facility,but certainly no justification for the difference!).
This development is not operational yet and it is not going to be plain sailing as regards costs for airlines per passenger. I will salute Ryanair when they challenge government and airport bosses on such charges.

Ryanair could be nicer to the customer, and investment should be made into elevating the brand to a position of choice and not only for the price. But Alot of people do like Ryanair.

THere were other posts on here saying that if Ryanair took over they could forsee All short haul becoming Ryanair and Aer Lingus becoming only Long Haul. This simply would not be the case, MOL recognises that there are huge opportunities for interline traffic, and the opportunity to grow Dublin as an international hub. Ryanair will only be point to point so they will not be feeding passengers onto Aer Lingus flights. Hence Aer Lingus as a complete entity would continue.

However, I would forsee that if RYanair did take over the timetables would be co-ordinated. Ie Eg Aer Lingus provide the morning flight on many routes, and be back in Dublin early enough to feed passengers into T/A network and Ryanair complete the evening service (Eg).

Sorry that was a v long post!!!

EI-BUD

[Skipness One Echo]

Actually a lot of non airline peeps think Ryanair is a UK airline for obvious reasons. It's not thought of as a national anything, only as "the cheapest option", and there's nought wrong with that.

Aer Lingus is as Irish as Air France is French and we don't need to dumb it down anymore.
Do KLM need to re-brand as Air Netherlands?
Globespan as Air Scotland?

Can you guys really see there being an Aer Lingus 18 months after FR get their feet in the door. All they have ever done is slash the bottom line and take out costs, they don't have any commercial acumen of running a full service airline of any description. Aer Lingus Handling? Ground staff would be outsourced ASAP. MOL wants to bring lo cost to long haul, Aer Lingus would be competing with that if it remained as a service carrier.
Routes where FR and EI compete? I mean COME ON! Do some reading, there's at least three good books on this that show how they operate!

If Ryanair get their hands on Aer Lingus they'd be gone on under two years. How?
"Due to exceptionally difficult trading and changed market conditions Ryanair regret to announce that their subsidiary, Aer Lingus has failed to reach the ( arbritary ) expected level of revenue growth and as a result etc etc."

Google "Frank Lorenzo" , "Continetal" and "Texas Air" if you think this sort of stuff isn't well planned....

MOL recognises that there are huge opportunities for interline traffic

Goes against what he's DONE for the last decade, and also everything he's said on the matter in the same period.

How on earth can a 2nd terminal cost €1 Billion when a terminal in Hahn by Ryanair Costed only €50m for the exact same passenger numbers

Because it's a crap tin shed. It's the opposite extreme.

People have to get over the MOL thing he is a fing good business man and the way this industry is going I for one would feel alot more secure working for him or a company ran by him.

There are a HELL of a lot of young men and women in the Bishop's Stortford and Stansted area who would not agree with that. Of course they won't tell you as they'd be sacked.

[racedo]

EI-Bud

I was one of those 80's people who paid 2/3 of monthly pay to fly home at Christmas or take the train and boat.

Ryanair is the airline people love to hate and abuse and blame while other airlines get the easy ride. Passenger numbers just grow bigger and bigger.

Its the easy one to kick buy is passenger numbers show its closing in on being twice the size of BA.

Don't know number of flights have taken just in last 4 years but littlie is just 4 and he has 70 plus returns done and this doesn't include any I take on business so kind of know who to avoid.

I like Ryanair because the do as they say they will.

[racedo]

Can you guys really see there being an Aer Lingus 18 months after FR get their feet in the door. All they have ever done is slash the bottom line and take out costs, they don't have any commercial acumen of running a full service airline of any description. Aer Lingus Handling? Ground staff would be outsourced ASAP. MOL wants to bring lo cost to long haul, Aer Lingus would be competing with that if it remained as a service carrier.

Its kind of why you keep the people who can on and the people who can't you offer them an exit option.

As for Ground Handling ? What exactly is the issue with it being non airline owned ?

[Skipness One Echo]

Nothing and to be honest, outside Dublin it makes little sense to have staff at SNN and ORK as an outsourced handler is often preferred. However at home bases with a critical mass of flights, it can also make more sense to bring things in house.
The point I am making is that in a short space of time I could see them offloading non core costs, ie massive job losses within the old Aer Lingus business and removing the entire Airbus short haul fleet allowing the routes to be flown with the ever increasing number of surplus Ryanair 737s. MOL has shed loads of aircraft coming, he ABSOLUTELY HAS to put them somewhere, anywhere!
That would leave a handful of Aer Lingus A330s that can be folded into the new Ryanair based short haul product in 1-2 years time. End result, FR takes out it's biggest competitor and dominates the Irish aviation scene.

They've been wanting to f*** Aer Lingus for years, it's business AND personal.

[daz211]

OK lets forget the Name thing as dated and confusing as it is.

So what will EI do if the take over by FR comes to nothing ?
do you think FR will forget about Transatlantic routes ? I dont think so and where would that leave EI, sure some pax will stay with EI but a whole lot more will keep the cash in their back pockets and fight at the departure gate for the window seat.

What is EI's master plan when Ryanair Flt FRxxxx departs SNN to the States? the same as when FR started to flood into Europe EI will sit back and say "well didnt see that coming" and yes it wont be called Ryanair but you get my point.

I know and drink with a lot of FR crew from Bishops stortford and Stansted mountfitchet and I can tell you know two of them came from ZOOM and another from GB and the others have worked for FR from between 2-7 yrs
and they are more than happy with the sercurity of working for FR.

So why is FR working better than others, lets see they have handling agents and not employed workers they cut costs whenever and however they can, they pull routes if they dont work out and I for one would not hold it against them if after the take over thing are not working as planned and dumped EI because if it is not working why keep it going.

What people forget is FR are so big because they do it right 99% of the time. they are the fastest growing Airline in the world with a very modern fleet and announce new routes more often than any other Airline.
on paper this is a perfect Airline to buy EI, Its just the MOL bit people cant get their heads arourd.

[Skipness One Echo]

daz211 you're a fan boy and that's fine. I use FR a lot to fly to PIK and have been to DUB and NQY with them too. Flown maybe about 20 sectors in the last 3 years. I like them.
HOWEVER you are comparing apples and pears. They are entirely different business models, Aer Lingus is not a full blown loco, they operate long haul.
Ryanair have said any new long haul fleet will not be "Ryanair" but a seperate entity with it's own business model. They have been saying this a lot actually.

If they operate a flight from A to B in long haul against EI then I will tell you what will happen. There will still be enough people willing to fly with a better quality airline as it's way further than a wee jolly to Spain for a few Euros.
If I'm going long haul, I'm sure as Hell not gonna risk MOL air. Bad enough eing stranded in PIK overnight but LONG HAUL??? No way. I'm not saying there won't be a big market, but today we have a CHOICE. That MAY be about to be withdrawn in the case of Ireland. Here's your future boys :

fight at the departure gate for the window seat.

[racedo]

The point I am making is that in a short space of time I could see them offloading non core costs, ie massive job losses within the old Aer Lingus business and removing the entire Airbus short haul fleet allowing the routes to be flown with the ever increasing number of surplus Ryanair 737s.

AL used to a 100% Boeing fleet.

As for the job losses well either they will be picked up by the new handling agents or the airport was overmanned. AL shedding staff anyway and they would have done this years ago but the Unions will just go on strike.

Personally I think FR would have AL flying the Capital City routes to LHR/CDG/FRA etc plus the Transatlantic and offer a differentiated service.

AL could of course get into bed with soneone else who would do exactly the same thing.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why do you think this? MOL has been incredilby vocal about how crap these airports are. ( his words ) He would make more money shutting down EI rather than allow it to continually COMPETE WITH RYANAIR. Aer Lingus short haul + Ryanair short haul has no synergies at all.

Remember people say Rod Eddington was wrong to sell GO but it was competing with BA ! The upshot is that easyJet still compete with BA and BA were able to concentrate on a business friendly, short haul, quality product at LHR without being distracted by Go.

Can you really see Aer Lingus ( Ryanair ) at LHR for long sitting on the slots that are worth a small fortune? This policy is incoherent but they don't care as it's no secret what FR really want to do to EI.

Think Delta's Song and United's TED. All gone.It fractures the brand badly.

[daz211]

Yes I am a fan boy but of Aviation that includes EI, FR and the rest of them, What I was trying to say many posts ago is that the EI brand is confusing and offers to many typs of service they have tried to pull theselfs into the 21 century but have confused their model on the way
as I asked earlier, are they a low cost Airline, A European Airline, A transatlantic Airline, A domestic airline, or a national carrier.
In these tough times for all All Airlines I think it would be better to have a more fixed model that peope outside Ireland can relate with.
I am not slagging them off in any way what so ever and would love them to carry on as a Airline in their own right but thing have to change and fast.
there are two other threads on this site one is another airline goes bust and the other is about takeover talks.

Times are changing and Airlines need to do the same and soon.

As for my last post if you read it again, I did say that the new longhaul Airline would not be FR I was making a point with the FR flt number.