Aer Lingus - 5
Where does idea of spare planes come from ?
Some are parked up for the winter which is not uncommon.
Given 15 disposals in next 2 years I don't think there will be that many spare.
Some are parked up for the winter which is not uncommon.
Given 15 disposals in next 2 years I don't think there will be that many spare.
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Aer Lingus is Dead
A slow horrible death.
Hope MOL has his way and puts the company out of it's misery. I don't think the Irish Government (which toes the line when it comes to the unions) will stand idly by though.
I think the majority of Irish people would be glad the company still exists and is more functional & reliable. Most of the people I know would be wary of using AL at the moment due to the strike risk, which has been going on way too long. I think most Irish people are raging against the unions (in the private and public sector) at the moment.
Hope the government sells it's stake to MOL, God knows we need the cash and it's not like owning the shares achieves much, as the government has already made it clear that it doesn't want to interfere with the business of a private company.
Hope MOL has his way and puts the company out of it's misery. I don't think the Irish Government (which toes the line when it comes to the unions) will stand idly by though.
I think the majority of Irish people would be glad the company still exists and is more functional & reliable. Most of the people I know would be wary of using AL at the moment due to the strike risk, which has been going on way too long. I think most Irish people are raging against the unions (in the private and public sector) at the moment.
Hope the government sells it's stake to MOL, God knows we need the cash and it's not like owning the shares achieves much, as the government has already made it clear that it doesn't want to interfere with the business of a private company.
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Currently over 20 aircraft grounded, with over 40 new deliveries due before next July (Down as far as Boeing c/n 37539). All being purchased. NO lease opt outs.
Cash reserves well below your figure - approx 1.4bn
As for disposal - talk to ILFC or any other lessor. Market is awash with 737s, as the majority of airlines that have gone under recently were 737 operators.
On the other hand, most other airlines have structured fleets with a balance of ownership and leasing, allowing the airlines downsize if required without retaining excessive capital costs. (No wonder that ILFC is in deep problems - it is a subsidiary of AIG). Not so FR.
As for FR Longhaul - this story started 18 months ago when MOL tried to defer 737 deliveries. Havign screwed Boeing to the wall for compensation in the past for delays in deliveries, Boeing have been unwilling to defer deliveries to him without severe penalty. MOL tried to convert some 737 orders and options to B777 (more easily leased onwards/sold) - but Boeing were not biting. And neither are Airbus.
Cash reserves well below your figure - approx 1.4bn
As for disposal - talk to ILFC or any other lessor. Market is awash with 737s, as the majority of airlines that have gone under recently were 737 operators.
On the other hand, most other airlines have structured fleets with a balance of ownership and leasing, allowing the airlines downsize if required without retaining excessive capital costs. (No wonder that ILFC is in deep problems - it is a subsidiary of AIG). Not so FR.
As for FR Longhaul - this story started 18 months ago when MOL tried to defer 737 deliveries. Havign screwed Boeing to the wall for compensation in the past for delays in deliveries, Boeing have been unwilling to defer deliveries to him without severe penalty. MOL tried to convert some 737 orders and options to B777 (more easily leased onwards/sold) - but Boeing were not biting. And neither are Airbus.
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I dont get what the problem is !
Is it just because it MOL ? or Ryanair ?
Because how I see it someone is offering to double yes double the size of
Aer Lingus' short- haul fleet from 33 to 66 aircraft over the next five years, which would create job security and create 100's more jobs.
1, Offering 33 BRAND NEW B738's to the AerLingus fleet is a offer to good to turn down.
2, 100's of new jobs is an offer to good to turn down.
3, Job security is an offer to good to turn down.
Or you can all sit back on your pride and cross your fingers for the next couple of yours.
Let me just offer you some advise, whilst your sitting crossing your fingers in these very hard and unpradictable times, read the threads on this site where cabin crew, flight deck and ground agents are finding themself jobless homeless and pennyless, swallow your pride and become a more secure and profitable Airline, The end of the Aviation down turn is a very long way off and more Airline will go under why risk it !.
Is it just because it MOL ? or Ryanair ?
Because how I see it someone is offering to double yes double the size of
Aer Lingus' short- haul fleet from 33 to 66 aircraft over the next five years, which would create job security and create 100's more jobs.
1, Offering 33 BRAND NEW B738's to the AerLingus fleet is a offer to good to turn down.
2, 100's of new jobs is an offer to good to turn down.
3, Job security is an offer to good to turn down.
Or you can all sit back on your pride and cross your fingers for the next couple of yours.
Let me just offer you some advise, whilst your sitting crossing your fingers in these very hard and unpradictable times, read the threads on this site where cabin crew, flight deck and ground agents are finding themself jobless homeless and pennyless, swallow your pride and become a more secure and profitable Airline, The end of the Aviation down turn is a very long way off and more Airline will go under why risk it !.
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PPRNkof,
you must listen to and watch too much RTE. Get a few facts. Try the Aer Lingus website for the last set of accounts. It is a cash rich company.
As for strike - what strike? SIPTU and company management reached agreement over a week ago -maybe you should try and keep up to date with whats happening in the real world.
DAZ,
Offer 33 737's to Aer Lingus - so that EI can dispose of their aircraft so he doesn't have a surplus on his hands.
100's of jobs - get real. FR do not directly employ many. Most are contractors and are seasonal.
Just go back through the rhetoric that MOL has been spouting for the last few years and compare it with wht has really happened.
FR is currently forcing all of its pilots to take unpaid leave over the winter.
MOL is claiming that the delay in opening the EDI base is as a result of delays in aircraft deliveries, whilst he has over 20 aircraft parked up.
See through the verbal diahorrea.
you must listen to and watch too much RTE. Get a few facts. Try the Aer Lingus website for the last set of accounts. It is a cash rich company.
As for strike - what strike? SIPTU and company management reached agreement over a week ago -maybe you should try and keep up to date with whats happening in the real world.
DAZ,
Offer 33 737's to Aer Lingus - so that EI can dispose of their aircraft so he doesn't have a surplus on his hands.
100's of jobs - get real. FR do not directly employ many. Most are contractors and are seasonal.
Just go back through the rhetoric that MOL has been spouting for the last few years and compare it with wht has really happened.
FR is currently forcing all of its pilots to take unpaid leave over the winter.
MOL is claiming that the delay in opening the EDI base is as a result of delays in aircraft deliveries, whilst he has over 20 aircraft parked up.
See through the verbal diahorrea.
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Tonyryan
You didnt answer my Q, Is it just because it's MOL / Ryanair
or would this tread be so negative if BA or LH was involved.
I dont know much about EI's finance how strong are they? and would
you say that they are safe from the current downturn in the industry if they stand alone and carry on as they are.
or would this tread be so negative if BA or LH was involved.
I dont know much about EI's finance how strong are they? and would
you say that they are safe from the current downturn in the industry if they stand alone and carry on as they are.
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The MOL /FR bid would not be beneficial for EI - it would lead to asset stripping and elimination of the competition.
There is no doubt that EI would benefit from a merger/takeover at some stage, and the likelihood is that such an event could happen in the not too distant future. But the important thing is that it be a beneficial one - one that seeks to develop the business, not elimiate it.
It is also likely that the high percentage shareholding held by Fr is there to prevent such a thing happening.
EI's financial situtation is quitre strong, better placed than most to weather the current economic downturn.
http://www.aerlingus.com/Corporate/C...NAL_750415.pdf
There is no doubt that EI would benefit from a merger/takeover at some stage, and the likelihood is that such an event could happen in the not too distant future. But the important thing is that it be a beneficial one - one that seeks to develop the business, not elimiate it.
It is also likely that the high percentage shareholding held by Fr is there to prevent such a thing happening.
EI's financial situtation is quitre strong, better placed than most to weather the current economic downturn.
http://www.aerlingus.com/Corporate/C...NAL_750415.pdf
100's of jobs - get real. FR do not directly employ many. Most are contractors and are seasonal.
Ryanair employ 6000 people to fly 58 Million passengers.
Its AL who are looking to make 1500 people redundant or outsourced and has already indicated it expects to lose money in 2009.
You kind of wonder how its been run when it increases staff numbers 7.4% and revenues per passengers are flat with a 70% load factor .....AL Half yr results.
Ryanair of course is stuck with its low cost funding from US Export/Import bank and as of Sept 2008 it had 2.063 Billion Euros in cash.
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Racedo,
compare like with like:
EI average leg lenght is a lot longer than FR's - compare RSKs and RTKs to get a more accurate picture.
Your employment figures for FR highlight the fact that FR outsource so much of their handling - even a considerable number of their pilots adn cabin crew are not included in those figures - they are employed through contract agencies. When you factor in the number of contract personnel you will see much less disparity.
EI produce catering for longhaul flights and have a cargo division.
As I said, compare like with like.
EI do not have 20 plus aircraft parked up for the winter and won't have 60 plus aircraft surplus to requirements for next summer; and more importantly, they won't have to worry about how to pay the mortgages on such a large number of unproductive units.
compare like with like:
EI average leg lenght is a lot longer than FR's - compare RSKs and RTKs to get a more accurate picture.
Your employment figures for FR highlight the fact that FR outsource so much of their handling - even a considerable number of their pilots adn cabin crew are not included in those figures - they are employed through contract agencies. When you factor in the number of contract personnel you will see much less disparity.
EI produce catering for longhaul flights and have a cargo division.
As I said, compare like with like.
EI do not have 20 plus aircraft parked up for the winter and won't have 60 plus aircraft surplus to requirements for next summer; and more importantly, they won't have to worry about how to pay the mortgages on such a large number of unproductive units.
Tony
Ryanair numbers even including contract don't come anyway close to AL's because to suggest they do would indicate Ryanair employed another 18,000 people as contract staff and they don't.
The production of food for long haul or cargo is clearly not much of a benefit in that AL made an Operating loss in 1st half year and expects that to continue in 2nd half plus saking 1500 people.
Bottom line as you clearly have stated is you are happy to see AL taken over in the long term BUT as long as its by anybody but Ryanair you don't care.
Ryanair numbers even including contract don't come anyway close to AL's because to suggest they do would indicate Ryanair employed another 18,000 people as contract staff and they don't.
The production of food for long haul or cargo is clearly not much of a benefit in that AL made an Operating loss in 1st half year and expects that to continue in 2nd half plus saking 1500 people.
Bottom line as you clearly have stated is you are happy to see AL taken over in the long term BUT as long as its by anybody but Ryanair you don't care.
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Ryanair don't have any aircraft parked up, last I heard they are still short of them due delayed deliveries.
They are still selling off the old ones too. Two sent off to a new buyer in the last few days.
They are still selling off the old ones too. Two sent off to a new buyer in the last few days.
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To tonyryan and co,
Ryanair buying Aer Lingus can only be good for the airline as would be the case with any strong airline taking over a weaker, more vulnerable, smaller, loss making airline. It would create a single Irish entity capable of competing with the biggest airlines in the world.
It is not a case of finding somewhere to send extra aircraft. After the winter season there are no spare airframes, in fact the Boeing strike delayed expansion at some bases.
To say that a Ryanair takeover would not benefit the airline is purely scaremongering. The only people that it might not benefit in the long run are the over paid employees from an era where trade unions held Dublin politicians over a barrell to extract obscene slalaries no longer sustainable in a loss making airline that has tried everything else to become consistently profitable.
That is why you will hear the doomsday forcasting sentiments being bandied about above. Ryanair, and the people who run it have excellent business acumen and can only benefit the ailing Aer Lingus as it now stands. If that involves stripping the excess that obviously exists to make the airline profitable then so be it. Welcome to the real world.
RP
Ryanair buying Aer Lingus can only be good for the airline as would be the case with any strong airline taking over a weaker, more vulnerable, smaller, loss making airline. It would create a single Irish entity capable of competing with the biggest airlines in the world.
It is not a case of finding somewhere to send extra aircraft. After the winter season there are no spare airframes, in fact the Boeing strike delayed expansion at some bases.
To say that a Ryanair takeover would not benefit the airline is purely scaremongering. The only people that it might not benefit in the long run are the over paid employees from an era where trade unions held Dublin politicians over a barrell to extract obscene slalaries no longer sustainable in a loss making airline that has tried everything else to become consistently profitable.
That is why you will hear the doomsday forcasting sentiments being bandied about above. Ryanair, and the people who run it have excellent business acumen and can only benefit the ailing Aer Lingus as it now stands. If that involves stripping the excess that obviously exists to make the airline profitable then so be it. Welcome to the real world.
RP
Any discussion about Ryanair/Aer Lingus invariably rounds up the usual suspects expressing strong emotions.
Facts are:
Ryanair own nearly a third of Aer Lingus bought at a rather higher price than the shares are now worth.
Ryanair appear to have little influence over the running of Aer Lingus and have expressed dissatisfaction at recent developments.
Making an offer in the light of the previous EU competition ruling and the ensuing domination of Dublin is tricky.
On the face of things it looks a long shot. Maybe MOL knows something we do not. But given notoriously strained relations with the EU one does rather wonder how. However the offer will at the very least provide a platform to embarrass Aer Lingus.
Facts are:
Ryanair own nearly a third of Aer Lingus bought at a rather higher price than the shares are now worth.
Ryanair appear to have little influence over the running of Aer Lingus and have expressed dissatisfaction at recent developments.
Making an offer in the light of the previous EU competition ruling and the ensuing domination of Dublin is tricky.
On the face of things it looks a long shot. Maybe MOL knows something we do not. But given notoriously strained relations with the EU one does rather wonder how. However the offer will at the very least provide a platform to embarrass Aer Lingus.
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Ireland with Ryanair as it's flag carrier?
An airline run on Eastern European labour with staff who often barely speak English. An airline as Irish as a Polish sausage.
Now don't get me wrong,it does what it says on the tin and I do fly with them. But make no mistake, Aer Lingus for all their faults are a much more civilised carrier. Marrying Ryanair and Aer Lingus cultures would be carnage.
At the end of it all, it sure as Hell wouldn't be Irish.
An airline run on Eastern European labour with staff who often barely speak English. An airline as Irish as a Polish sausage.
Now don't get me wrong,it does what it says on the tin and I do fly with them. But make no mistake, Aer Lingus for all their faults are a much more civilised carrier. Marrying Ryanair and Aer Lingus cultures would be carnage.
At the end of it all, it sure as Hell wouldn't be Irish.
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too right Red Paddy,
just the usual knee-jerk reaction that takes place every time RYR is mentioned in the news, the airline everybody loves to hate (but still flies with discreetly). AL have been going down the tubes since 9/11, a takeover is completely inevitable, as long as you rule out liquidation as an option.
using the loss of competition for consumers is just a screen, a merger with AL would significantly pave the way for a 'big four' in the european airline market, which is how we should be looking at this. never mind the tiny insignificant irish market, the industry is only going one way and that way is european consolidation.
i dont recall AL complaining too much about competition laws before RYR became a threat to them, back in the day when they charged 200 irish pounds for a flight from dublin to heathrow, which would've been roughly a months salary in the 80's.
tonyryan argues that this merger would destroy such competition, but admits that a takeover would benefit AL. so who should take over?
Lufthansa/Swiss/SN Brussels/Austrian/BMI/possibly Virgin/possibly Alitalia maybe? cant really see how that would be good for competition. i hear they're thinking of changing their name to something catchier... Fourth Reich Airlines maybe?
just the usual knee-jerk reaction that takes place every time RYR is mentioned in the news, the airline everybody loves to hate (but still flies with discreetly). AL have been going down the tubes since 9/11, a takeover is completely inevitable, as long as you rule out liquidation as an option.
using the loss of competition for consumers is just a screen, a merger with AL would significantly pave the way for a 'big four' in the european airline market, which is how we should be looking at this. never mind the tiny insignificant irish market, the industry is only going one way and that way is european consolidation.
i dont recall AL complaining too much about competition laws before RYR became a threat to them, back in the day when they charged 200 irish pounds for a flight from dublin to heathrow, which would've been roughly a months salary in the 80's.
tonyryan argues that this merger would destroy such competition, but admits that a takeover would benefit AL. so who should take over?
Lufthansa/Swiss/SN Brussels/Austrian/BMI/possibly Virgin/possibly Alitalia maybe? cant really see how that would be good for competition. i hear they're thinking of changing their name to something catchier... Fourth Reich Airlines maybe?
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Skippness One Echo...Ryanair is an Irish multi-national company, probably the most successful airline in the world.
On competition grounds in Ireland, I don't think a merger with Aer Lingus will be allowed to proceed unless Aer Lingus were about to go bust. They have substantial amounts of cash in the bank and can ride out the current downturn.
On competition grounds in Ireland, I don't think a merger with Aer Lingus will be allowed to proceed unless Aer Lingus were about to go bust. They have substantial amounts of cash in the bank and can ride out the current downturn.