Alitalia (Merged)
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and............
El#
It sometimes takes an impartial outsider with business experience to make intelligent assessments. Such folks are normally called "Consultants".
Believe this at your peril. Times have changed my friend. Only yesterday I was flying over the Atlantic with PanAm having dinner in the dining area upstairs on the 747 in First Class. Neither exist today. The public wants a bus. That's what they are prepared tp pay for and that's what they get. I'm not suggesting that Unions should cease, just that sensible representation be put in place which responsibly represents the interests of memberrship in a pragmatic way, negotiating within the realm of the possible.
We are approaching this arguement, clearly, from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Understand, however, that my interest in this is purely intellectual and I am in the process of preparing a Business case study on this for LBS. This thread will comprise part of the background to the case. The students will be able to debate all these same issues, except of course that at USD 50K per year there won't be many communists!!
Many things still have to happen in this sage. Anyone is free to watch and criticize, but I will rebuke sweeping and uninformed statements especially when made by people with little exposure to italian history and politics
Telling people that "they should realize times have changed" is a preposterous and totally useless statement. Suggesting that unions should shut up or cease, then is simply insulting, as until you can prove the contrary, they represent the victims and not the culprits for the current and past crisis.
We are approaching this arguement, clearly, from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Understand, however, that my interest in this is purely intellectual and I am in the process of preparing a Business case study on this for LBS. This thread will comprise part of the background to the case. The students will be able to debate all these same issues, except of course that at USD 50K per year there won't be many communists!!
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Times have changed my friend.
negotiating within the realm of the possible.
Seriously, your "unions should get real" mantra is flawed for two reasons in this case: firstly because low-cost labour is NOT the key to a profitable company, in fact quite the opposite (CX, LH, AF and even BA crew make substantially more than AZ crew, matter of fact even Easy and Ryanair crews are starting to make more on medium-haul). AZ crews are already fairly low-cost anyway: AF's Spinetta admitted as much earlier this year.
Secondly because the "unions", or more correctly professional pilots' associations, as FORD pointed out, have not made any outlandish requests. They have only asked to continue allowing pilots to be represented by other pilots (a true communist scandal, I admit: much like those ALPA socialists in the US or those BALPA pinkos in the UK, or even HKALPA in Hong Kong, another known hotbed of communism
). There are no unreasonable terms and conditions being requested either: as a matter of fact during the negotiations, ANPAC offered to adopt either LH's or AF's entire pilot contract and T&Cs, but with the remuneration reduced by 30%.
I'm never one to let the facts get in the way of a good story, but this old saw about "AZ's woes are due to its labour force" is getting a little tired.
Navigante, I-Ford,
First of all: I see your points and understand that there's more to the problem than meets the eye. I certainly do not envy your situation and am convinced that pilots in AZ are not the root of the predicament that AZ is in. I can understand that you would like to be represented by your peers, and that the terms and conditions offered are meager to say the least (including the way part-timers, parents, carers etc. are treated).
What I (and many others) don't understand is how you seem to be willing to shoot down your only opportunity to retain employment for two thirds of your colleagues over this. Standing up for your principles is one thing, committing collective job-suicide over them is another.
I will not get into a discussion on comparisons between AZ and AF-KL, Lufty and the likes because (although that is not the pilot's fault) there is no comparison. The closest thing to AZ is Olympic which faces a similar fate.
In these economically 'challenging' times probably your best option is to swallow your pride, accept that times are tough for the first couple of years and renegotiate terms when things look a little rosier.
First of all: I see your points and understand that there's more to the problem than meets the eye. I certainly do not envy your situation and am convinced that pilots in AZ are not the root of the predicament that AZ is in. I can understand that you would like to be represented by your peers, and that the terms and conditions offered are meager to say the least (including the way part-timers, parents, carers etc. are treated).
What I (and many others) don't understand is how you seem to be willing to shoot down your only opportunity to retain employment for two thirds of your colleagues over this. Standing up for your principles is one thing, committing collective job-suicide over them is another.
I will not get into a discussion on comparisons between AZ and AF-KL, Lufty and the likes because (although that is not the pilot's fault) there is no comparison. The closest thing to AZ is Olympic which faces a similar fate.
In these economically 'challenging' times probably your best option is to swallow your pride, accept that times are tough for the first couple of years and renegotiate terms when things look a little rosier.
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You would be perfectly correct, Longhitter, if this were a serious attempt at a turn-around and profitable privatization carried out by well-intentioned businessmen, with an eye to re-building the company and eventually emerging stronger than before.
Unfortunately, AZ pilots have the sinking feeling, no the certainty, that this is just like every other "re-capitalization" and turn-around of the last 8 years or so. A farce, a charade useful to politicians and their banking buddies, that will result in even deeper debt and an even smaller company in a couple years time.
All you have to do is look at who's involved, and what they are doing. Among the other things they are trying to pull off: they are aiming to amalgamate Air One into AZ, and spin off that company' debt (and believe me they are even more in debt than AZ with respect to their size) into the "bad company" part of the maneuver that will ultimately be paid off by the taxpayer. Air One's huge debt is towards one of the banks which, lo and behold, is behind the CAI take-over bid. Bank gets its money back from taxpayer AND gets an airline to boot.
Another juicy tidbit (but there are dozens): the government decreed that the evaluation of AZ's fair market value was to be undertaken on CAI's behalf by another bank (Banca Leonardo I believe); they decided that the AZ marque, aircraft and slots were worth one million euro (I believe). Do a little research however and you discover that two of the "businessmen" behind CAI are Banca Leonardo associates. No surprise then that CAI are offering substantially less than AF was earlier in the year.
This is Italy, where "conflict of interest" is a SOP, the PM is basically a crook, two of our MPs are bona fide convicted criminals, and some thirty-odd more are under investigation (or maybe it's more, I can never remember). In this case it's us stupid pilots that are left holding the candle.
Unfortunately, AZ pilots have the sinking feeling, no the certainty, that this is just like every other "re-capitalization" and turn-around of the last 8 years or so. A farce, a charade useful to politicians and their banking buddies, that will result in even deeper debt and an even smaller company in a couple years time.
All you have to do is look at who's involved, and what they are doing. Among the other things they are trying to pull off: they are aiming to amalgamate Air One into AZ, and spin off that company' debt (and believe me they are even more in debt than AZ with respect to their size) into the "bad company" part of the maneuver that will ultimately be paid off by the taxpayer. Air One's huge debt is towards one of the banks which, lo and behold, is behind the CAI take-over bid. Bank gets its money back from taxpayer AND gets an airline to boot.
Another juicy tidbit (but there are dozens): the government decreed that the evaluation of AZ's fair market value was to be undertaken on CAI's behalf by another bank (Banca Leonardo I believe); they decided that the AZ marque, aircraft and slots were worth one million euro (I believe). Do a little research however and you discover that two of the "businessmen" behind CAI are Banca Leonardo associates. No surprise then that CAI are offering substantially less than AF was earlier in the year.
This is Italy, where "conflict of interest" is a SOP, the PM is basically a crook, two of our MPs are bona fide convicted criminals, and some thirty-odd more are under investigation (or maybe it's more, I can never remember). In this case it's us stupid pilots that are left holding the candle.
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I-FORD
In general I agree with your statements, however I have one question regarding your assumption that the AZ pilots will be needed to enable CAI to run an airline according to EU-OPS, etc.
What about AirOne? Do you want to imply that the managment pilots, the TRI´s and TRE´s, the captains and copilots of AirOne are unable to do the job? That only the AZ pilots have the right qualifications?
Fill us in, please!
In general I agree with your statements, however I have one question regarding your assumption that the AZ pilots will be needed to enable CAI to run an airline according to EU-OPS, etc.
What about AirOne? Do you want to imply that the managment pilots, the TRI´s and TRE´s, the captains and copilots of AirOne are unable to do the job? That only the AZ pilots have the right qualifications?
Fill us in, please!
Alitalia strike
From Associated Press:
Unions for Alitalia pilots and flight attendants have called a strike for Nov. 25.
The unions say it will be the first in a series of one-day strikes to protest a plan by Italian investors to rescue the ailing airline by laying off workers and cutting routes.
Alitalia's bankruptcy administrator has warned against strikes, but the unions said in a statement Sunday that they also plan a total of 14 days of walkouts between December and May.
The investors have made a binding offer to acquire Alitalia, and are hoping a foreign airline will eventually come aboard as a partner.
Some unions have agreed to the deal. But unions for pilots and flight attendants are unhappy about criteria for who gets laid off and for part-time workers.
Only weeks after the airline was saved from total collapse and now the unions plan 14 days of strikes?
Unions for Alitalia pilots and flight attendants have called a strike for Nov. 25.
The unions say it will be the first in a series of one-day strikes to protest a plan by Italian investors to rescue the ailing airline by laying off workers and cutting routes.
Alitalia's bankruptcy administrator has warned against strikes, but the unions said in a statement Sunday that they also plan a total of 14 days of walkouts between December and May.
The investors have made a binding offer to acquire Alitalia, and are hoping a foreign airline will eventually come aboard as a partner.
Some unions have agreed to the deal. But unions for pilots and flight attendants are unhappy about criteria for who gets laid off and for part-time workers.
Only weeks after the airline was saved from total collapse and now the unions plan 14 days of strikes?
a series of one-day strikes to protest a plan by Italian investors to rescue the ailing airline
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A planet on which commitments are to be respected. CAI has changed the terms that have been signed since the last agreement. Beside, the whole plan is a fraud to the italian taxpayer, as it can't fly.
Go read alitalia thread in Airlines and Airports, Mr. "navigante" and I-FORD that are FD crew made good resumes of the situation.
Go read alitalia thread in Airlines and Airports, Mr. "navigante" and I-FORD that are FD crew made good resumes of the situation.
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Navigante and I-Ford
Can you point out any other airline which is represented by 9 Unions?
Why does AZ needs 9 Unions?
Since when a professional association has called strikes? I also do belong to a professional association which does not call strikes, the Unions call strikes. If your was a professional associations should include the pilots of AirOne...Professional Associations and Unions are regulated and act differently.
Regarding the mis-management of AZ over the year I believe that all the world has seen it, however I do wonder why Pilots and Cabin Crew are calling themselves out, blaming anyone else.
Why the FCO MPX crew shuttled existed? Is truth that was there to shuttle the crews living in Rome and not willing to move to MPX and AZ could not hire crews in Milan? I was also told that the shuttling time was considered working time...I stand to be corrected because I could not confirm the above.
Furthermore why most of the PAX hate to fly with AZ because of the attitude of the crews? Is this also a failure of the management?
Look back at the number of strikes that have crippled the airline, always organized by different Unions (9) in different days. Is there any airline in the world that have suffered so many strikes? Can you mention how many of those strikes were not related to salary/work issues and how many were made to protest the incompetent management of AZ?
Thanks
Can you point out any other airline which is represented by 9 Unions?
Why does AZ needs 9 Unions?
Since when a professional association has called strikes? I also do belong to a professional association which does not call strikes, the Unions call strikes. If your was a professional associations should include the pilots of AirOne...Professional Associations and Unions are regulated and act differently.
Regarding the mis-management of AZ over the year I believe that all the world has seen it, however I do wonder why Pilots and Cabin Crew are calling themselves out, blaming anyone else.
Why the FCO MPX crew shuttled existed? Is truth that was there to shuttle the crews living in Rome and not willing to move to MPX and AZ could not hire crews in Milan? I was also told that the shuttling time was considered working time...I stand to be corrected because I could not confirm the above.
Furthermore why most of the PAX hate to fly with AZ because of the attitude of the crews? Is this also a failure of the management?
Look back at the number of strikes that have crippled the airline, always organized by different Unions (9) in different days. Is there any airline in the world that have suffered so many strikes? Can you mention how many of those strikes were not related to salary/work issues and how many were made to protest the incompetent management of AZ?
Thanks
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Union...?
One thing , I-FORD forgot to explain, professional union (anpac-up) in italy only represent alitalia's pilots.
Many airlines in the past have been written off (volare-azzurra-eurofly) or forced to cancel form alitalia's partnership , and almost all the pilots where in those unions, calling for action to maintain the job.
But they simply close one or both eyes , because too much interested in watching AZ stocks option at Bloonberg Tv.
Now according to them ,even this former airlines pilots have to join the fight in order to keep alitalia pliots garden always , as usual , the greener.
Nick 1
Many airlines in the past have been written off (volare-azzurra-eurofly) or forced to cancel form alitalia's partnership , and almost all the pilots where in those unions, calling for action to maintain the job.
But they simply close one or both eyes , because too much interested in watching AZ stocks option at Bloonberg Tv.
Now according to them ,even this former airlines pilots have to join the fight in order to keep alitalia pliots garden always , as usual , the greener.
Nick 1
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and...........
Go read alitalia thread in Airlines and Airports, Mr. "navigante" and I-FORD that are FD crew made good resumes of the situation.
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CAI investors are a bunch of politically driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern bandits who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again.
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again.
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and..........
CAI investors are a bunch of politically driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern bandits who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...merged-41.html
I need some help. This thread is dominated by disenfranchised AZ pilots and various communist elements with a chip on the shoulder.
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and............
Thanks for some support at last. It was me against the AZ pilots, Unions and the communists!! There is a need for some balance in this thread!!
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The Italian pilots/unions may have a good point.
Usually, unreasonable union action can be ignored, but (I suspect) not in Italy...and Alitalia unions in particular.
These folks might as well hang on to the bitter end...and that 'end' would be very unpopular for the present Italian government.
Ergo....expect a compromise, the keep AZ a going concern.
Usually, unreasonable union action can be ignored, but (I suspect) not in Italy...and Alitalia unions in particular.
These folks might as well hang on to the bitter end...and that 'end' would be very unpopular for the present Italian government.
Ergo....expect a compromise, the keep AZ a going concern.
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CAI investors are a bunch of politically driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern bandits who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.
The result of this corrupted way of conducting business is a spoiled market made of state aid, ad hoc by laws, millions of tax payer's money wasted, worsening of the financial situation and a constant and unbearable inconvenience for the passengers.
Both parties should step back, let the airline go in peace and wait for the market to fill the gap just like it has happened for other airlines in other countries.
And maybe learn from the present so that next time they all won't do the same mistakes again
Philipat:
Dude, this is a pilot forum. If you start bashing pilots then you should not be surprised at a lot of flak in return. If you want to have a clusterf**k with your investor buddies: go to a different forum (unless you enjoy being bashed, but then you probably have your computer in a a basement with lots of 'fun' rubber / leather items around...).
I-Ford and Navigante represent the AZ pilot point of view, and of course they look at things from a different angle than the average bean-counter. So far their replies to my questions have been frank and clear and not in the Mr. Know-it-all tone that you have taken to.
The situation in AZ is FUBAR to say the least, and while the unions are not the most realistic and flexible ones they mostly only reacted to mismanagement and political meddling on a spectacular scale. I certainly would not like to be in the situation that AZ pilots are in. They did not create the biggest problems in AZ, but are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Just imagine how frustrating that must be. If the present plan to 'rescue' AZ is not viable, then opposing it makes sense. The fact that they are prepared to lose their job over it means that they are either very stupid or very convinced that the new plan will not lead to a profitable restart for AZ. My money is on the latter.
Philipat: you spend a lot of time bashing Alitalia pilots when there is much more reason to criticise Olympic personnel. They have been striking and blocking runways over plans to privatise Olympic for weeks, being far less reasonable and yet you did not mention them once. Any particular beef with AZ?
Dude, this is a pilot forum. If you start bashing pilots then you should not be surprised at a lot of flak in return. If you want to have a clusterf**k with your investor buddies: go to a different forum (unless you enjoy being bashed, but then you probably have your computer in a a basement with lots of 'fun' rubber / leather items around...
).I-Ford and Navigante represent the AZ pilot point of view, and of course they look at things from a different angle than the average bean-counter. So far their replies to my questions have been frank and clear and not in the Mr. Know-it-all tone that you have taken to.
The situation in AZ is FUBAR to say the least, and while the unions are not the most realistic and flexible ones they mostly only reacted to mismanagement and political meddling on a spectacular scale. I certainly would not like to be in the situation that AZ pilots are in. They did not create the biggest problems in AZ, but are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Just imagine how frustrating that must be. If the present plan to 'rescue' AZ is not viable, then opposing it makes sense. The fact that they are prepared to lose their job over it means that they are either very stupid or very convinced that the new plan will not lead to a profitable restart for AZ. My money is on the latter.
Philipat: you spend a lot of time bashing Alitalia pilots when there is much more reason to criticise Olympic personnel. They have been striking and blocking runways over plans to privatise Olympic for weeks, being far less reasonable and yet you did not mention them once. Any particular beef with AZ?
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why can't they just die in peace?
For gods sake, whilst they all play primadonna and survive only thanks to MY EU tax payments, the rest of us have to work harder on lower T's and C's because we're all trying to compete with a major european airline that doesn't need to bother with minor niceties such as making a profit, or even covering its own costs.
I don't wish to see fellow workers on the scrap heap, but, especially in todays economic times, this shower of rubbish is jeopardising all our jobs. So personally I wish someone somewhere would just pull the plug, and I wish the spineless EU would enforce the rules.
My local market stall can't sell potatoes in pounds, but Alitalia can receive billions of illegal, corrupt, subsidies. Go figure.
For gods sake, whilst they all play primadonna and survive only thanks to MY EU tax payments, the rest of us have to work harder on lower T's and C's because we're all trying to compete with a major european airline that doesn't need to bother with minor niceties such as making a profit, or even covering its own costs.
I don't wish to see fellow workers on the scrap heap, but, especially in todays economic times, this shower of rubbish is jeopardising all our jobs. So personally I wish someone somewhere would just pull the plug, and I wish the spineless EU would enforce the rules.
My local market stall can't sell potatoes in pounds, but Alitalia can receive billions of illegal, corrupt, subsidies. Go figure.