Alitalia (Merged)

[eu01]

the amount of debts

At present Alitalia has debts amounting to 2.3 billion euros. This is the sum given by the extraordinary commissioner of the national airline, Augusto Fantozzi, who spoke to Fabio Fazio on the TV programme "Che tempo che fa". He also told the viewers he did recognize the risk that Italian taxpayers may have to pay the part of this debt if the ongoing negotiations would not succeed.

The full text from La Stampa can be read here (in Italian).

[Damianik]

the taxpayers will have to pay the debt of 2.3 millions if it fails...or 1.5 millions if CAI takes AZ + AP..because the bad part of them will still go to government and taxpayers sponsor the government.
If it failed months ago at least AF could have taken over more of AZ and leave behing smaller or no debts to us..but we know that this was no option for the northern front of capitalism, they have their own private agenda that has nothing to do with aviation.

[md4490]

Hard facts

...some hard data on AZ from European Airline Association (the year is 2006):
1) the ratio of people vs plane: Az 62 ,Iberia 159, British 808, Af-Klm 659, Lh 542
2) money made pro capite (for the company) Az 413300 euro, 210000 Lh,188900 Af-Klm
3) goods transported..first place as of personnel productivity
4) every 100 euro earned: AZ 15,6 for personnel, 94,2 for all others"items" that is a -9,9euro. Af-Klm 31,5 for personnel, 65,6 for "items" +2,8 euro. That means that Az pays 25% more for "items" than other airlines and about 50% less for personnel
..and this is only part of it...and now all they (CAI) can do is cut our benefits,salary,seniority,annual leave....because (they say) WE are the cause of all that is happened and happening.....this is all you can hear and read in Italy right now...next time I'll try to explain why there is a Cai trying to "save" AZ....
AZ 3XX Cpt.

[TopBunk]

md4490

Your figures cannot be taken at face value as there is no indication as to what they cover.

For example, 62 people per plane at AZ.

(1) What functions does that cover, ie what functions are on the direct payroll and what services are contracted out? Bear in mind that every contracted out function will transfer costs to the "all others" amount.

(2) Simplistically, a shorthaul operator of A320/B737/MD80 aircraft will require 4 flight/cabin crews per airframe, each crew being about 6 people, so 24 people per aircraft. A longhaul 747 will require about 9 crews per aircraft at about 18 people per crew, or 162 people. Comparing AZ to BA/AFKLM/LH I suspect is not comparing apples to apples because of the relative sizes of the SH and LH operation.

There are lies, damned lies and statisitics.

At the end of the day AZ are financially and morally bankrupt as is the Italian state. The government continuing to bail out AZ cannot be allowed to continue as it will drag everyone else down as well. By all means fight for the best deal you can, but if you don't like the deal that results don't expect more Euro coffers to come your way.

[md4490]

top bunk
...I do not expect anything from anybody...but at least they should not lie about us (crews)..because that is what they have been doing so far...as for the "bailouts" done by the Gov. till now... keep in mind the AZ was not a private company but a public one i.e. the Gov. "private" airline so they did what they wanted,when they wanted and how they wanted and they did not have to tell you **** ...for the facts I wrote in my previous post I got them by the major national newspaper and you can believe it or not is your problem...finally if you do not like us as a country...well be a man and give up pizzas from now on and stick to your fish&chips...

[Hussar 54]

TOPBUNK

You're right and you're wrong....

1 - As regards functions, that's exactly the problem....Far too many third party supplied functions at grossly inflated prices...Trust me - I've heard of some the scams going on there....

2 - Crewing levels...Almost agree with you that it's hard to compare AZ with, say, your own company and the others you mention....But if the airframe mix is different than the others, then who decided the route / fleet structure ? Certainly not the AZ flight crews....And as mentioned in previous posts, flight time for crews at AZ is almost at maximum, and salary scales are well below other legacy carriers...And who decided that MXP should be a major hub - when hardly any business people choose it for visits to Milan because of the distance from the city and the notorious wx there....Not the AZ flight crews I'm certain !

3 - A bit harsh to say that AZ is "morally" bankrupt....Politically perhaps, Italian politics and politicians are " morally " bankrupt....AZ would normally be considered as " financially " bankrupt without the ongoing state aid....But I don't for one second think that AZ receiving State subsidies will threaten anyone's existence in BA / LH / AF-KL....However, if you want to discuss whether the incalcuable State aid and subsidies provided by the governments behind Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Gulf Air, etc may bring pain to BA / CX / QF / AF-KL / et al, then let's start tonight.....And notice I didn't include LH - who seem to have absolutely no problem with Brussels when it comes to Monopoly market positions and avoiding penalties for price-fixing...You could be forgiven for thinking that the relationship between LH and the Brussels mafia is even thicker than that between some Italian politicos / AZ management and some of AZ's 3rd Party suppliers....

As I said on Page 2 or Page 3 or whatever of this thread - what really sticks in the throat with AZ's current position is just how much some corrupt Italian politicians and their cronies in the banks and other parts of the Italian businessworld stand to make out of this ' survival plan '....

And at the expense of many of AZ's current staff, the majority of whom just get on with it, day in, day out, as we all do....

[billy164]

Top Bunk

It is offensive to say that the Italian State is morally bankrupt it is not factual or even an intelligent comment, when people say things that are offensive no-one else will listen.

So we can all forget about this issue, in 2006 Italy contributed Euros 14,359,479,157 and EC expenditure in Italy was Euros 10,922,300,000 Italy is a net contributor to the EC therefore NO european money is used or has ever been used for Alitalia!

Try not to confuse Euros for the currency of the EC it is also the currency of Italy and has nothing to do with the commission or the tax payers of the UK

Now Alitalia, a few weeks ago I posted a message saying I was thinking of booking in order to do my bit to help, as I believed they couldn't be that bad.

I did book for Christmas eve, flying to Brasil so we could arrive on Christmas day and suprise family.

I booked online and took the first of many different options on the screen, seeing as they all arrived in GRU at the same time, my usual carefullness went out of the window, I saw we had 3.25 hours to change in Milan no probs I thought.

Some of you are already are already seeing alarm bells. Because it makes perfect sense to not have ANY flights to an international hub from the biggest city in Europe, (yes not I do believe some sort of mad political interference)

The flight arrives from LHR to LIN at 8.35pm (in the last 30 days it has been cancelled 4 times, late 11 times and ontime 15) and the only bus and last of the day to get me from LIN to MXP is 9.30 (so 55 mins to allow for any delays in LHR (never happens I know) get off the plane get my luggage then find and get on the bus) and arrives outside the terminal just 20 mins before checkout closes. I don't think thats enough time anyone done it? Am I worrying about nothing? Having been told repeatedly by AZ staff the bus transfer takes 45mins, the 8.35pm time quoted is the that I will get my luggage etc. etc.

Anyway I wanted to change for an earlier flight as I didn't want to be stuck in MXP for 2 days over Christmas, and I don't think Alitalia should have sold the ticket without making it clear that ther was a change of airport not as I had stupidly assume a change at worst of terminals.

Sorry for the length of the post I am getting to the point.

I have spoken to 7 members of Alitalia staff in 5 days, I have been given 2 bogus email addresses, 3 wrong telephone numbers had the phone slamed down on me and been kept holding for 20 mins without any check backs, to those of you who say the problem is not the staff you would appear to be very very wrong. Alitalia is worse than Ryanair for customer care and they don't even have an excuse.

Yes it could be an isolated case but its not, its an ethos, its training it comes from the top, I now understand those who say staff at AZ believe they have a God given right to act anyway they choose. (Perhaps cos they fly the Pope?) now I sadly have to agree with those who say Alitalia does not deserve to survive (at least if it fails I can claim back on my credit card and fly with a professional airline).

I was one of those people to give them a chance, I am sad, I am sad for the people who will lose their jobs, I am sad that AZ is not worth fighting for. When I fly Ryanair I factor the price of the priority booking and the baggage in the hold I check and re-check my bookings, and if I make a mistake I expect to lose, but in the long run after all the cheap flights I can afford to take a loss once in a while.

However I will never fly AZ, there just isn't any point there are so many better airlines out there, Ryanair is the best at what it does Alitalia is no where near the best, if I was paying 50 quid for my ticket then ok, but I wasn't I was paying much the same as Iberia, AF, Lufthansa etc.

Please someone who believes in Alitalia, try and explain why I am wrong. Tell me why I am worrying about sleeping on the floor of MXP for nothing tell me why AZ have managed to make me more worried not less tell me why AZ gleefully told me they will cancel my entire ticket if I fly BA to MXP even though they don't check me in for the whole route from LHR, and tell me why I was told by staff "but Sir everyone knows that with Alitalia you have to change from Linate to Malpensa" I don't I am a stupid member of the public London LHR - Milan LIN , Milan MXP - Sao Paulo GRU means nothing to me other than I get the flight in London and I arrive in Sao Paulo.

[billy164]

Update

Finally I got through to the most amazing lady they exsist in every company. After days of being told no of being laughed at ignored etc. etc.

I got through to someone who tried to help thats all I wanted, someone to try and help me even if they couldn't. She did her best she got a solution which I was happy and stops me from worrying.

I would still point out that one helpful member of staff versus 7 unhelpful is still not a good ratio.

But that one is a saint, Thank You Marie

[FrequentSLF]

Please someone who believes in Alitalia, try and explain why I am wrong. Tell me why I am worrying about sleeping on the floor of MXP for nothing tell me why AZ have managed to make me more worried not less tell me why AZ gleefully told me they will cancel my entire ticket if I fly BA to MXP even though they don't check me in for the whole route from LHR, and tell me why I was told by staff "but Sir everyone knows that with Alitalia you have to change from Linate to Malpensa" I don't I am a stupid member of the public London LHR - Milan LIN , Milan MXP - Sao Paulo GRU means nothing to me other than I get the flight in London and I arrive in Sao Paulo.

Well..that's the reason i will fly AP from FCO to VCE instead of AZ!
I can tell you so many reasons for not flying AZ, the problem is that AZ employees do not care about it.

[Damianik]

funny how now AP will merge with AZ...who will you fly then?

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and................

Billy164:

Sorry about the experience but you were cautioned before you booked. At least you paid with a CC as recommended, so if AZ goes belly-up before your trip, you will get your money back from the CC Company, but will of course not get to spend the hols in Jardin Botanico.

A few random thoughts:

1. If AZ are insisting your ticket is only good for a through check at LHR to GRU, then isn't your checked-through baggage an AZ problem? They should be responsible for the transfer to MXP because, and I assume you don't have to clear immigration in Italy(?), you are only "In transit" in Milan with a Boarding Pass and checked baggage receipt for a connecting flight on the same carrier? In fact, if your bag is checked throught to GRU, it should not, in part for security reasons, even exit the belt in Milan because, having checked the bag to GRU, they and not you accept responsibility for it all the way to GRU. They can't have it both ways. Either they insist on checking you and your bag through to GRU at LHR or they don't. If the latter, you should be able to take an earlier BA to MXP and check in to GRU at MXP. You would NOT be using the sectors out of sequence, just not using the first sector. The issue is probably that they are heavily discounting outside Italy for longhaul AZ connections in Italy, so they don't want Italians buying cheaper tickets in UK then just discarding the European connex sectors.
2. There are taxis in Milano!! The taxi ride, especially at that time of night would be much quicker. In my experience at LIN (Albeit not with AZ) baggage does come through quite quickly, even at peak evening times. SO you should be able to make it, even if Item 1 (Above) does not apply. Alternatively, depending on the time/cost equation, you could take a short cab ride from LIN to the Central station in Milano then take the MXP Express. It's actually quite quick and direct because LIN is to the SE and MXP to the NW of Milano.
3. Travelling without a check-in would save time. A full-size carry-on wheelie should be adeqaute for a trip of up to one week in my experience if you pack carefully.

Hope some of the above may help.

[FrequentSLF]

funny how now AP will merge with AZ...who will you fly then?

No more domestic flights in Italy

[billy164]

Philipat, I would tend to agree with you, however either the airline industry or AZ in particular doesn't. They believe that I should check in at Heathrow arrive in Linate, get myself and luggage to Malpensa, with no regard for bus time tables (its not like Heathrow-Gatwick, buses every few minutes, there can be as much as 5 hours between buses!!!!). I then HAVE to check in at Malpensa because I won't be given an onward ticket. If I miss check in, and, it will be closed if I don't arrive in time, even if they are informed I am in transit, I miss my flight and my right to another ticket because its my fault. (I wish someone can tell me why, if I have paid for a ticket from LHR-GRU why I have to pay for any part of the trip in between (ie the bus from LIN-MXP))

To say this is a ticket from one destination to another is a lie its four seperate tickets, however if I want to stop over in Milan for a few days I would be charged extra! Even though I have to clear security and immigration and am left on my own with no assitance from Alitalia to travel the 78 km across on of the busiest cities in Europe.

Eventually someone at AZ did tell me they had had this problem several times before!!!!!!!!
Of course they do all flights from London,Brussels,Frankfurt,Madrid, Barcelona,Paris and Amsterdam fly to only Linate (no big cities there then!) and ALL long haul flights from Malpensa. With NO flights (let me be clear about this :- I cannot fly from any of the above cities to Malpensa with AZ). BA for example flies to both Linate and Malpensa so does KLM so does AF and probably others, but Alitalia does not.

In this thread I have spent time responding to people who attack Italy or Alitalia, attacks on Italy and its people are completly out of order and wrong. The situation at Alitalia however is a farce clearly it has been run by headless chickens, clearly the level of customer care is disgusting, and clearly the government uses it as its own personal taxi service so has no regard of what routes should actually be run. Using a horrible phrase from the UK there is 'no joined up thinking' in the company.
In my view its quite clear everyone on this thread who has attacked an aspect of AZ is correct, from the pilots attacking management to the ex-customers attacking staff, capitalists attacking unions, communists attacking shareholders and everything in between.

Alitalia is rotten to the core!

Should it be saved? Economically there is no arguement for it to be, there are some very good airlines out there if Alitalia goes is there anywhere in the world I won't be able to get to? No, Alitalia adds nothing to my ability to travel! So consequently if it disappears I lose nothing.
Arguements are not only about economics though, personally I believe every country should have a flag carrier, someone their President, PM (or Pope) should travel on, someone to evacuate survivors or captives etc. I know its sentimental clap trap but hey. Swiss Toni (sorry Silvio Berlusconi) got it right, people do feel comforted to see their own airline in a foreign country its always a link home, but then I also believe BA,Iberia Lufthansa even TAP etc, should never be owned by foreigners either.

The thing is Ryanair and such are effectively buses, and thats fine when I need to get somewhere or wanna get away for a quick break, but don't forget flying is wonderful, amazing, pilots are not managers they are supermen they fight nature and win everyday, lets all remember we are not supposed to be able to fly, everytime 'that' plane takes off I feel a buzz, I love airplane food, I love being in airports, when I want to go somewhere romantic or special I want to pay more and get a proper service. I don't want flying to stop feeling special.

At the moment Alitalia is nothing neither the bus nor the romance its just badly run, staffed by surly employees but worst of all no-one cares about the customer and we pay everyones wages. Company in trouble, workers strike! Oh come on in the UK we destroyed our manufactring industry by not understanding this fundamental point you strike when you can achieve something.

I don't want thousands and thousands to lose their jobs but Alitalia has to change in such a big way, so massively I am not sure it is possible, they are 20 years too late all the other legacy carriers have been through this and they have come out the other side much better. Lets see if Alitalia can, I am sure of one thing though this is the last chance, it really is.

As for me, well, my ticket has been changed free of charge I am flying first thing to linate getting a hire car doing a little shopping in Milan (the gf will be pleased then to Lake Como for dinner, drop the hire car/luggage trolley with a roof at Malpensa and get ready to be told our flight to Sao Paulo has been cancelled after all that due to crew shortages (because they wanna be at home on Christmas Day, maybe so do we????)

[el #]

Brazilian GF ? You can then pretty much handle any other human capriciousness, AZ included.

Jokes aside, a very reasonable post Billy, wish you good luck, you're very brave in willing to go with'em.

[billy164]

LMFAO

thank you el #

either brave or stupid I'll let you know in March when I return.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and..........

As for me, well, my ticket has been changed free of charge I am flying first thing to linate getting a hire car doing a little shopping in Milan (the gf will be pleased then to Lake Como for dinner, drop the hire car/luggage trolley with a roof at Malpensa and get ready to be told our flight to Sao Paulo has been cancelled after all that due to crew shortages (because they wanna be at home on Christmas Day, maybe so do we????)

So, in fairness, you can't really complain too much, hey? They could have told you to f**k off, that's what you booked and paid for online. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the reason I never flew AZ again ever is because I was stranded on Christmas Eve in FCO after the cancellation of a flight to BKK where I lived at that time. I'd been in New York, London and Milan on business and was loaded down with presents for my kids, who were young at that time, and just wanted to get home for the holidays. And the general lack of help and support susequently from AZ, even flying First Class. I truly hope it doesn't happen to you.

But AZ problems, again, can be summarised as follows:

1. It's mismanaged and inefficient, in part because of corruption involving Italain Government Officials and their families.
2. It is only still flying because of illegal Government subsidies, dressed up as "Nationalism" in a cloud of smoke and mirrors with a Red, White and Green fireworks display.
3. The "Rescue" by CAI is an asset strip by Uncle Sylvio and the boys, dressed up in similar attire to the above. CAI will pay half the value of the valuable assets and dump the bad assets, accumulated losses and the retrenchment costs on the Governent (Aka the taxpayer)
4. None of this is the doing of any of the AZ staff but in any Company there is a "Culture", which starts at the top. If that culture becomes one of "Why should I care. it's not my problem?" then, particularly at the customer interface, it becomes a disaster and quickly falls apart. That's what is happening now.
5. Best solution? Let it go under, it's not worth saving and it will cost the Italain taxpayer less by letting it go. As is, the Italain taxpayer will have to absorb AT LEAST Euro 1.3 Billion NET, whereas in an honest and transparent BK it would be close to breakeven. The landing slots at LHR/JFK etc. alone are worth that much.
6. Does the World need AZ? No. The aviation world has changed whereas AZ still lives in the past. There is no room in the middle ground any longer for "Legacy" carriers. Either you are a Low cost carrier serving as abus, with busfares. Or you are a Full service carrier charging premium fares and providing premium service. Most people want a bus and are only prepared to pay a bus fare. Those who want and are able to pay more expect to receive far better service, which is generally available only on the Middle and Far Eastern Carriers (Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, Thai, Malaysian, Singapore, Cathey etc.) Really, Lead, Follow or get out of the way. This is just business strategy and seeing the trends in the aviation business. You can't survive any longer as a "Legacy" carrier being neither of the above. But this is particularly the case with AZ?
7. The employees are understandably frustrated and appear to be essentially trying to BK AZ. I suppose understandable if the objective is to tap into the deal whereby the Italian Government will bankroll the redundancy costs and will pay cabin crews a guaranteed 80% of present salaries for the next 10 years. Nice, stay home, invest the money, forget AZ. If not, remeber it will be VERY difficult for AZ crews to get employment with other lines as a a result of such intransigence. OK, play it, but it's a dangerous game?
8. Does any country really need a "Flag Carrier"? Not really. Give me a break. If it makes money and is something to be proud of, then fine. If not? If the Head of State wishes to travel, He/She can pay for a Charter, large or small, just like they SHOULD do at present but don't. WHich is, of course, another loss leader for the "Flag Carriers"

Sorry for the long post but trying to cover lots of issues and summarise where we stand all at the same time.

[billy164]

You are right Philipat, at present I have nothing to complain about because I fought hard, its just a shame I had too, there is a problem using two airports they know about it and they should have resolved it or at the very least warned passengers.

Economically though I agree with 95% of what you said in your last post. I am not sure that SB is interested in asset stripping, for him I believe (I am frequently wrong) that its a question of pride not finances.

What I disagree about though is about a medium way, I think most long-haul airlines are in that category, I can't afford to fly a premium airline, of course I would love to fly in my own private cabin on an A380 but its unlikely to happen.

Surely the point is that Alitalia only has to be as good as the other decent European carriers, there is enough passengers around (perhaps not at the moment) I would love to know how most bookings for intercontinental flights are done if its internet price comparison sites then as long as Alitalia repairs its reputation and can offer competitive prices, they will get passengers. For example my preference to go to Brasil is always Air France but on the A330 because of the seat configuration, (Silly I know, but there is even a premium I am willing to pay for it!) BA has the most incredibly polite and attentive stewardesses Alitalia could provide fantastic food, it doesn't take much to create a niche, I don't want to sound trite but I really believe it doesn't really take that much.

Of course for a rich business class user such items are trivial but for most of the plane these little things can make a huge difference if the prices are all the same. The best thing is not everyone will agree so the passengers will be shared around.

I understand that the economics of long-haul are based on Premium passengers for the solutions here I need to defer to passengers who have experience in this area.

Alitalia must first of all decide where it wants to be, and what it wants to do, and position itself ruthlessly and aggressivly in that place the competition is not relevant, then it must be made clear that after this 'deal' the Italian state has no further involvement, then anyone connected to the 'new' Alitalia must understand they will NEVER be bailed out again. Management and staff must realise that the rest of us work under the pressure that if we don't give our best it will be our last day at work so should they none of us has a god given right to keep our jobs no matter how we act!

I have bored you all enough, I don't think I have anything more to say about Alitalia, I just wish all those employees who are hard working and conscientious the best off luck.

Finally I have written to senior management at Alitalia to compliment the lady who helped me, to praise her professionalism and to tell them what an asset she is to the company.

Will anyone make the effort to tell her a grateful customer wrote or given a pat on the back or a well done????????? The more happy helpful staff you encounter in a business the more likely the answer is yes.

[el #]

Billy, check out Air Europa for your upcoming S.A trips.

- Low fares especially when booked via Edreams
- Spanking new A330
- European connections to most places
- Sky thing alliance for Miles
- Cabin crew is kind, they look and behave like human beings

[billy164]

Thanks el #

Its a trip we make a couple of times a year nice to have different options .

Just looked on edreams tried booking the flight I was originally put on, look what it says :-

"Connection20:35 Wednesday 24 December - 23:50 Wednesday 24 DecemberChange terminal and airport.Linate (LIN), Milan - Italy To Terminal 1, Malpensa (MXP), Milan - Italy Time of stopover: 3 hours 15 minutesCheck with the airline for the boarding time and gate!"


I ask again why couldn't Alitalia put that information on their own website?

[manrow]

Alitalia takeover

Is this highlighting the end of the worst for European airlines?

Will this herald the stabilising of aircrew employment?

BBC NEWS | Business | Government agrees Alitalia sale