Alitalia (Merged)

[FrequentSLF]

We will soon (although this is Italy, they might drag it out for another month or so...) know who have overplayed their hand and who haven't.

Being this Italy both parties will end up on the loosing side. They will never be able to find a win-win situation because each party aim is to weaken the other party.

[Longhitter]

Frequent: that is sad, but indeed the most likely outcome... Let's see what happens.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...........

CAI will not be able to continue operating after the beginning of december if they don't have enough pilots on board. If the pilots do not break ranks and reject the contract collectively, the new Alitalia will have no pilots to fly their aircraft.

Back to the Chess game. Good luck with these assumptions. However, have you noticed that there is a global recession and that many airlines have gone belly up in the last year? This possibly means that there are lots of unemployed pilots?

Good luck also to ex-AZ pilts looking for employment with other carriers after this. Let's make an Outlook note to re-visit this discussion on, shall we say, April 01, 2009?

[el #]

i checked my facts, you probably have a superficial knowledge of the italian scene.

Actually I live here, follow the matter with interest, and even have some inside sources.

I could name 3 or 4 former unionists that then became chief pilots and even CEO's (does Eurofly remind you anything?); not mentioning the past government's presidents of senate and parliament who also were former union bosses.

There is nothing wrong with that in principle. The President of Brazil is a former unionist, do you have a problem with that as well ? You are welcome to criticize anyone, but do that on they merit/demerit only.

What both CAI and unions have signed a few weeks ago is total crap from every point of view: no forlough details, no merger details (Alitalia+AirOne), no route structure details, no international partner...vitually no business plan at all.

Totally agree, now that was the plan Mr Berlusconi wanted the banks to prepare, foreign companies had been sent away, what would have been the alternative ?

Only politics.

And of the worst kind indeed.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and............

If that is legitimate under EU regulations is another issue

Hmm, I wonder if that was what I was suggesting?

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...............

What both CAI and unions have signed a few weeks ago is total crap from every point of view: no forlough details, no merger details (Alitalia+AirOne), no route structure details, no international partner...vitually no business plan at all.

So why sign it? I assumed that the two parties signed an agreement it actually meant that they both agreed? This is called the law, in any country, and I would have assumed that responsible Organisations in the EU would have understood this. If not, then the consequences are to live with it.

[CaptKremin]

Civilized countries are driven by intellect, not by politically linked social climbers like the infamous italian unionists.

Jaysus! Sanctimonious claptrap!
I used to think like you did, until I got a job and got out in the world.

Show me one of these 'Civilised Countries' if you please?
There are none.

[philipat]

Kremli/Kretin Whatever

Jaysus! Sanctimonious claptrap!
I used to think like you did, until I got a job and got out in the world.

Show me one of these 'Civilised Countries' if you please?
There are none.

Hey, Kremlin,

Welcome back, now we can have some serious political discourse again? To answer your question, I assumes The USSR would meet your requirements?

[Longhitter]

Philipat,

Of course there are plenty of jobless pilots on the market at the moment. But even if we assume that a suitable number of type-rated pilots (we're talking 2000 of them here) could be hired today, they would never be able to start working on the 1st of december. Before starting in a new company aviation regulations require that you go through an operator's conversion course which involves a week or so of ground school, simulator training (about a week) and line training (several weeks) to familiarise with the company procedures. Pilots, even if rated on the correct type of aircraft, are not 'plug and play' by any means. Sorry to shatter your argument of 'there are plenty pilots available in these market conditions' here, but you're not a pilot so you couldn't have known that Getting 2000 pilots online in a month from scratch is a mission impossible I'm afraid...

The only major airline I know of that sacked all their pilots over a labour dispute and rehired the ones that took their offer is Qantas. They had the public opinion on their side and could afford the stunt, CAI can't.

[Busbert]

Just let AZ go to the wall, and with it all the archaic terms and conditions. Then hopefully a leaner airline will rise from the ashes unhampered with the baggage of the past.

[fly_ebos]

I'm smelling Sabena all over again!

Their pilots went on strike aswell in the runup to bankrupcy. I would think that it is better to have a job with less pay then no job at all, especially if we are at the start of an economic crisis. But maybe I'm being to logic...

[Longhitter]

Today's developments:

ANSA.it - News in English - Labor action disrupts Alitalia

[Longhitter]

Here are today's developments:

ANSA.it - News in English - Labor action disrupts Alitalia

[navigante]

Since when a professional association has called strikes?

FrequentSLF, I think you'll find that all of the world's major professional pilots' associations call strikes sooner or later, some infrequently (like BALPA), some a little more frequently (VC in germany... the most recent LH pilot strike was last May) and some frequently (AF's SNPL pilots are famous for striking at the drop of a hat, with devastating results). While you're right that it's ridiculous to have 9 unions, remember the vast majority of AZ pilots are represented by only two (ANPAC and UP), both of which are staunchly against this "deal". As an aside the current strike was NOT called by ANPAC or UP, who realize that in this delicate moment a strike is folly... it has been called by some ground staff unions.

Longhitter, thanks for listening and keeping an open mind instead of just parroting the usual cockpit lore like many... a rare bird here on the "prune". Ultimately I fear you're right about the terrier barking at the rottweilers, however even a chihuahua can give you a nasty nip if you're not careful! Here's hoping AZ pilots don't become rottweiler snacks.

Philipat, you're right about AZ pilots not being very media-savvy. AZ is the airline everyone loves to hate (sometimes with good reason) and AZ pilots are not exempt. However it's not easy in a country where the media is so tightly controlled by the same people who are trying to s&rew you.

Finally, pilots as a rule tend to be a conservative lot. Calling anyone who disagrees with you or is in favour of labour representation a communist is exactly what our PM does (S.B. even managed to call the FT and the Economist left-wing publications). It diminishes the value of your input, which would otherwise be interesting from a managerial perspective.

[Longhitter]

Navigante,

Just out of curiosity: which of the unions did and did not turn down the 'old' offer by AF-KL and what was ANPAC's point of view on that one?

Knowing now what kind of a mess AZ that has caused to be in must have given the people who trusted the new government to come up with a better plan some grey hairs...

[el #]

Reading Italian media, there's even more.

For example about the MD-11 today carring 10 Billion Euros bound to the European Central Bank has been declared a state flight in order to preserve schedule

Now that is a cargo!

[757_Driver]

Just let AZ go to the wall, and with it all the archaic terms and conditions. Then hopefully a leaner airline will rise from the ashes unhampered with the baggage of the past.

AZ has already gone to the wall, its just that nobody at AZ or the italian government appers to realize that yet!

I'm sure all the AZ employees think they have loads of genuine greviances, but guys - wize up and join the real world - your company is bankrupt. In any other company or country you would either be thrown out the door, with no pay, pension fund or anything else, or if you were very very lucky then the administrators would keep you on - after giving you a new contract with new Ts and Cs of course - which would be a 'take it or leave' scenario i.e non-negotaible.

Hopefully this will happen soon and then all the other airlines in europe will be spared trying to compete with this state-funded monster.

[el #]

757: that was the situation about one month ago.

Now there is people putting 1B Euro on the table with a binding offer, in what is essentially a privatization.

Seems normal that workers are fighting for their rights. First and foremost the one to be represented by whom they wish, like Pilots and FA are doing now.

Would you go accept working same or more for one half of your salary, or any another unacceptable condition ?

Perhaps you guys in the UK don't need an union and any fighting to have certain rights and principles respected. That is not the case in Italy.

[BlackBird]

Hey, I really respect these guys -- what they're doing is trying to keep the profession alive! Surely not easy when dealing with bean counters that consider pilots a liability and not assets. I sure wouldn't want to be in their shoes; they have my full support.

What was said earlier by their representative: "Better to go bust than to be bought out by bandits!".

[maybepilot]

"Better to go bust than to be bought out by bandits!".

Nobody will ever argue about such a wise statement; the problem is that the unions have signed a deal shortly after those words in exchange for what we have said before : a bunch of aviation nonsense filled with polical interests.

A few weeks later these are the results.