MANSTON
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weevhearditb4
Hi,
There is clearly a problem with off route Jets (at Manston) and this forum is about getting to matters of fact as well as discussing the odd rumour. Catflaps is right we seem to have an odd situation with Manston the old operators did one thing and the new operators are doing another. Now its clear that the 106 agreement which is voluntary (at Manston), means nothing now - this has a bearing on all airports in the UK as voluntary 106 agreements and Airports are a bad thing. Another aspect of this is the CAA does not engage appropriately with airport communities which does not aid any transparency with a so called watchdog.
I have looked at the so called 106 agreement departure, training and landing routes and something is not right, so we do need to know who actually controls Manston airspace - and who dictates which take off and landing routes are in operation as there is a small matter of noise abatement is there not -and at every airport i believe. Manston does not have a gated noise monitoring system so any noise monitoring is not worth the paper its printed on if jets are not on the designated routes.
There is clearly a problem with off route Jets (at Manston) and this forum is about getting to matters of fact as well as discussing the odd rumour. Catflaps is right we seem to have an odd situation with Manston the old operators did one thing and the new operators are doing another. Now its clear that the 106 agreement which is voluntary (at Manston), means nothing now - this has a bearing on all airports in the UK as voluntary 106 agreements and Airports are a bad thing. Another aspect of this is the CAA does not engage appropriately with airport communities which does not aid any transparency with a so called watchdog.
I have looked at the so called 106 agreement departure, training and landing routes and something is not right, so we do need to know who actually controls Manston airspace - and who dictates which take off and landing routes are in operation as there is a small matter of noise abatement is there not -and at every airport i believe. Manston does not have a gated noise monitoring system so any noise monitoring is not worth the paper its printed on if jets are not on the designated routes.
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But was the 106 agreement with Planestation not Infratil
From Wikipedia 
James
Plus Reports of removal of noise monitors by Infratil and failure to repair radar continue to grow
James
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James
Be careful what you read here, after all this is where Ryanair chose to announce their Dublin routes from MSE in 2008!!!!!!
Catflaps
How often are aircraft violating the agreed routes?
If it is on a daily basis perhaps this could be taken up with the airport management in the first instance who could then maybe shed some light on the matter or at least point you in the right direction to lodge a complaint.
If is on an irregular ad hoc basis is it really worth worrying about at the moment? I would agree with you if for example a permanent operator was violating the routes 20 times per day it would need to be addressed.
With all the pessimistic views posted that MSE doesn't have a cat in hells chance of being successful as an airport I dont think there will be too much noise pollution or distress caused to the residents on the ground.
However if the airport does attract a few operators I am sure the topic of routes and noise will be addressed.
MDIS
Be careful what you read here, after all this is where Ryanair chose to announce their Dublin routes from MSE in 2008!!!!!!
Catflaps
How often are aircraft violating the agreed routes?
If it is on a daily basis perhaps this could be taken up with the airport management in the first instance who could then maybe shed some light on the matter or at least point you in the right direction to lodge a complaint.
If is on an irregular ad hoc basis is it really worth worrying about at the moment? I would agree with you if for example a permanent operator was violating the routes 20 times per day it would need to be addressed.
With all the pessimistic views posted that MSE doesn't have a cat in hells chance of being successful as an airport I dont think there will be too much noise pollution or distress caused to the residents on the ground.
However if the airport does attract a few operators I am sure the topic of routes and noise will be addressed.
MDIS
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Wikipedia can be edited by any individual who could have a vested interest, and therefore is probably unreliable in this context.
As regards anyone with a concern about flight training I would phone or write to the airport and ask some questions. A carefully worded polite approach may get a sympathetic hearing, rather than an all guns blazing approach.
As regards anyone with a concern about flight training I would phone or write to the airport and ask some questions. A carefully worded polite approach may get a sympathetic hearing, rather than an all guns blazing approach.
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I'm never bothered by aircraft noise so I am unaware of the problems being talked about.
The only thing I have noticed is aircraft flying East-ish over Ramsgate, before making a Westbound final approach over the town (not training circuits).
There are plenty of other routes to get into position without going over Ramsgate twice.
Doesn't bother me 'cos I love aeroplanes, but it seems a bit dim-witted to annoy the general population unnecessarily.
I suppose as Ramsgate gets the bulk of the landings, it would be good PR to avoid flying over the town unless absolutely essential.
The only thing I have noticed is aircraft flying East-ish over Ramsgate, before making a Westbound final approach over the town (not training circuits).
There are plenty of other routes to get into position without going over Ramsgate twice.
Doesn't bother me 'cos I love aeroplanes, but it seems a bit dim-witted to annoy the general population unnecessarily.
I suppose as Ramsgate gets the bulk of the landings, it would be good PR to avoid flying over the town unless absolutely essential.
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Dont know if thats off any help at all?http://www.manstonairport.org.uk/htdocs/ILS%2028.pdf
Regards
James
Regards
James
niknak
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The last post demonstrates the alarming ignorance of the poster and et al, all he's posted is an instrument approach plate for MAnston, I could do the same for Heathrow and claim it was to promote double glazing sales in the Hounslow area, and not be challenged.
What you've really got to establish is, are there enough operators using Manston in2007 to make the company a profit? the answer is No.
In the unlikely event of Ranair coming to Manston in 2008, (10 months away), will their operation will never make a profit for the airport - the answer is NO, hats off to Ryanair if they do -another airport to exploit - but it almost certainly wont happen either way.
Face it chaps, Manston/Lubeck - bad investment, shortly to be off loaded...
What you've really got to establish is, are there enough operators using Manston in2007 to make the company a profit? the answer is No.
In the unlikely event of Ranair coming to Manston in 2008, (10 months away), will their operation will never make a profit for the airport - the answer is NO, hats off to Ryanair if they do -another airport to exploit - but it almost certainly wont happen either way.
Face it chaps, Manston/Lubeck - bad investment, shortly to be off loaded...
What you've really got to establish is, are there enough operators using Manston in2007 to make the company a profit?
Of course Manston won't make a profit in 2007. Even it's most die hard supporters wouldn't suggest that. And most importantly, Infratil never expected to in the first place.
No, what you've really got to establish is whether there'll be enough operators using Manston in 2009 or 2010 to make it profitable.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I can't foresee the future. But it seems premature to write it off based on todays levels of business when Infratil made it clear from the outset that they were working to a longer term plan that involved supporting the airport for several years.
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True enough.
No-one can see into the future.
All you can do is take a guess based on past events, current situation, and likely developments, both on a micro and macro level.
I like to think of it in terms of percentage odds - which I appreciate is a rather intuitive and inexact science.
On the Planestation shareholders noticeboard, when faced with a wall of EUjet optimists, I gave odds of 10% for the survival of the operation.
These days I would give MSE odds of around 2%-5% to reach breakeven before Infratil's temporal deadline, or expenditure cap.
One must remember that it is not simply a question of operators USING the facility, but paying a credible commercial rate for it.
Historical precedent, coupled by statements from Infratil would suggest it is difficult to acheive this at MSE.
No-one can see into the future.
All you can do is take a guess based on past events, current situation, and likely developments, both on a micro and macro level.
I like to think of it in terms of percentage odds - which I appreciate is a rather intuitive and inexact science.
On the Planestation shareholders noticeboard, when faced with a wall of EUjet optimists, I gave odds of 10% for the survival of the operation.
These days I would give MSE odds of around 2%-5% to reach breakeven before Infratil's temporal deadline, or expenditure cap.
One must remember that it is not simply a question of operators USING the facility, but paying a credible commercial rate for it.
Historical precedent, coupled by statements from Infratil would suggest it is difficult to acheive this at MSE.
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Careful
As we are meant to be self regulating, it might be worth calming down a little as the tone is deteriorating.
As I posted earlier if the airport is doomed to failure why is anyone complaining about a few aircraft using the wrong approach routes. If as is being suggested there will be a housing estate on the site soon, all the local residents will have to worry about will be the lack of schools, the waste water from the estate getting into the aquifer, the additional unemployment burden etc etc.
Do you really believe that Ryanair are going to base 2 aircraft at weekends only at MSE????
Infratil are careful with their money and would not be employing 10 more ramp staff if something wasnt on the horizon. I would go for a 20%- 30%chance of success.
I dont know how to start it but perhaps a more experienced ppruner could start a poll of some description.
MDIS
As I posted earlier if the airport is doomed to failure why is anyone complaining about a few aircraft using the wrong approach routes. If as is being suggested there will be a housing estate on the site soon, all the local residents will have to worry about will be the lack of schools, the waste water from the estate getting into the aquifer, the additional unemployment burden etc etc.
Do you really believe that Ryanair are going to base 2 aircraft at weekends only at MSE????
Infratil are careful with their money and would not be employing 10 more ramp staff if something wasnt on the horizon. I would go for a 20%- 30%chance of success.
I dont know how to start it but perhaps a more experienced ppruner could start a poll of some description.
MDIS
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I am no "seasoned financial wizard", but one thing I have noticed is that it is often the ventures that an ordinary person would assess as receiving a lot of investment, which end up being scrapped (Look at the Virginia flights)
For IFT, the amount of cash they are spending at MSE is pocket money.
To quote Lloyd Morrison (Infratil Management) "Basically we have spent a small amount of money, and we may well have lost it".
BTW does the new ramp staff mean the firecrews don't have unload MK any more?
For IFT, the amount of cash they are spending at MSE is pocket money.
To quote Lloyd Morrison (Infratil Management) "Basically we have spent a small amount of money, and we may well have lost it".
BTW does the new ramp staff mean the firecrews don't have unload MK any more?
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But Dave do you really think flights to Virginia was the right place to fly too from MSE even MAN or EDI dont fly to Virginia I think
Regards
James
Regards
James
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Do I think MSE to Virginia was a go-er?
Well, with hindsight, clearly not.
I was cynical at first, but when I realised what a miniscule percentage of the population was required for a decent load factor, I thought the service would go ahead, despite my belief that MSE itself is no-go.
Clearly the takeup was woeful and it was right to cancel.
I guess the thinking was - "We've tried lo-co, that was no good - Freight is tolerable but unstable and shows no sign of returning to its 2003 peak - Short haul is stable-ish but feeble, and we're gonna lose it to Lydd eventually.......Lets give long-haul charter a go...."
Make no mistake, however, the Virginia failure is a pivotal event.
A whole raft of influential people who were giving MSE the benefit of the doubt are no longer doing so, and this will reverberate through the coming months.
Well, with hindsight, clearly not.
I was cynical at first, but when I realised what a miniscule percentage of the population was required for a decent load factor, I thought the service would go ahead, despite my belief that MSE itself is no-go.
Clearly the takeup was woeful and it was right to cancel.
I guess the thinking was - "We've tried lo-co, that was no good - Freight is tolerable but unstable and shows no sign of returning to its 2003 peak - Short haul is stable-ish but feeble, and we're gonna lose it to Lydd eventually.......Lets give long-haul charter a go...."
Make no mistake, however, the Virginia failure is a pivotal event.
A whole raft of influential people who were giving MSE the benefit of the doubt are no longer doing so, and this will reverberate through the coming months.
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I think MSE can work out to right places as EUjet showed some off them .Just dont start flights to CPH 
. Think Cosmos should have done Orlando then Virginia and it beat traveling all the way to LGW when MSE is providing the same service to Orlando.When the Echo ramp gets a bit bigger hope some more cargo airlines come in,Well MSE is the top 10 for freight in the UK .
All the Best
James
. Think Cosmos should have done Orlando then Virginia and it beat traveling all the way to LGW when MSE is providing the same service to Orlando.When the Echo ramp gets a bit bigger hope some more cargo airlines come in,Well MSE is the top 10 for freight in the UK .All the Best
James
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Thats interesting you mention Lydd, I have been following the development of both these two regional airports and am of the opinion that MSE will grow as a freight and long haul commercial pax operation, however I invisage LYX will develop as a regional short haul domestic and european pax op.
I think its so dissapointing that we have these two airports both in Kent both having some facilities that the other doesnt have and yet neither have been sucessful to date in attracting a scheduled operator, I am longing to take my next holiday with a loco flight from on of these regional operators and i know a lot of other people who also would like to.
im told that it can take around 18 months for an airline to carry out fesability studies and route planning, release a/c etc.. before starting a route.. how long have infratil owned MSE now, how far through any negotiations might they be??? interesting
I think its so dissapointing that we have these two airports both in Kent both having some facilities that the other doesnt have and yet neither have been sucessful to date in attracting a scheduled operator, I am longing to take my next holiday with a loco flight from on of these regional operators and i know a lot of other people who also would like to.
im told that it can take around 18 months for an airline to carry out fesability studies and route planning, release a/c etc.. before starting a route.. how long have infratil owned MSE now, how far through any negotiations might they be??? interesting
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What gets me is that the anti's use one particular problem and boast the IDEA that manston could fail altogether?
The air corridor issue is being blown out of proportion to what is going on.
If regular flights occured, i mean 10-12 flights a day were making in for MSE the noise would be an issue. But as it stands... ermm theres what 1 or 2 a day, my parents live in whitstable under the runway 10 app. they are not bothered by acouple of jets at rooftop height every couple of days.
I like to think i provide a mixed oponion on this matter. I take each event as it happens an talk about just that.
What i am trying to get at is that the virginia flights failed, yes, the majority agree that it was not an ideal venture for MSE and infratil but how on earth can this suggest that every other operation i doomed to failure. kent escapes have proved a viable market exist from the airport to a few SUITABLE destinations. Inartil laid out te idea that outoing passengers to holiday destintaions was the key. Its has begun to happen and they apepar to be right? This is where the future may lie. Every business runs the financial risk of venturing into something new, some things work, some dont.
I think we need to take step back an think, OK:
Virginia failed, but on the other hand The kent escapes have'nt.
MK have returned, and as yet to leave.
Eygpt Air are returning for a second time impressed.
DAS to continue.
Anyway anough from me i am bored having to talk now.
The air corridor issue is being blown out of proportion to what is going on.
If regular flights occured, i mean 10-12 flights a day were making in for MSE the noise would be an issue. But as it stands... ermm theres what 1 or 2 a day, my parents live in whitstable under the runway 10 app. they are not bothered by acouple of jets at rooftop height every couple of days.
I like to think i provide a mixed oponion on this matter. I take each event as it happens an talk about just that.
What i am trying to get at is that the virginia flights failed, yes, the majority agree that it was not an ideal venture for MSE and infratil but how on earth can this suggest that every other operation i doomed to failure. kent escapes have proved a viable market exist from the airport to a few SUITABLE destinations. Inartil laid out te idea that outoing passengers to holiday destintaions was the key. Its has begun to happen and they apepar to be right? This is where the future may lie. Every business runs the financial risk of venturing into something new, some things work, some dont.
I think we need to take step back an think, OK:
Virginia failed, but on the other hand The kent escapes have'nt.
MK have returned, and as yet to leave.
Eygpt Air are returning for a second time impressed.
DAS to continue.
Anyway anough from me i am bored having to talk now.
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I enjoy coming on here and reading the threads posted about KIA, some i agree some i don't and it is very obvious that there are some posters that have not and never will have a good word to say about the airport, which doesn't bother me, as we all have our axes to grind against something.
What i can say is while all the short term gains and losses are debated in minute detail on here, we have to remember that Infratil have stated from day one, that they are in it for the long term and long term investment takes time and money.
In that scense Infratil have only been owners for a very short period and since taking over have invested steadily in equpment, manpower and structure. Even with the most cynical view this would tell someone looking in, that they are doing exactly what they set out to do.
Behind the scenes investment and negotiations are conitnuing on a daily basis, the fruits of which may not be seen for weeks, months or years, but it is happening and the airport is growing.
I personally have had my doubts over the future of the airport and still have a few now, but i'm certainly not going to write off the place while the airport continues to attract new business and continues investing.
What i can say is while all the short term gains and losses are debated in minute detail on here, we have to remember that Infratil have stated from day one, that they are in it for the long term and long term investment takes time and money.
In that scense Infratil have only been owners for a very short period and since taking over have invested steadily in equpment, manpower and structure. Even with the most cynical view this would tell someone looking in, that they are doing exactly what they set out to do.
Behind the scenes investment and negotiations are conitnuing on a daily basis, the fruits of which may not be seen for weeks, months or years, but it is happening and the airport is growing.
I personally have had my doubts over the future of the airport and still have a few now, but i'm certainly not going to write off the place while the airport continues to attract new business and continues investing.
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Well said BA.
All the breast-beating over the last few days about training flights stemmed from one poster complaining! Good to see the Gulfstream and the 757 in the circuit today. In fact a splendid day, with the return of EgyptAir and the first visit of World Airways for maintenance at DAS, plus oodles of general aviation.
All the breast-beating over the last few days about training flights stemmed from one poster complaining! Good to see the Gulfstream and the 757 in the circuit today. In fact a splendid day, with the return of EgyptAir and the first visit of World Airways for maintenance at DAS, plus oodles of general aviation.