CORK - 5
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Aelingus and Cork
Not my fault if Aerlingus keep flip flopping. As recently as 2008 there was a serious chance of a 5th 320 for Cork. By last summer it was a question of trying to hold on to 4 aircraft. It's back to 3 for winter 2010/11. I agree with Charlie about next summer. I wouldn't bet too much on them going back up to 4 given the uncertainty that's out there.
I still think the route mix in Cork is wrong. Far too much emphasis on bucket and shovel routes which are entirely dependent on outbound travel. Now they're the ones facing head to head competition from Ryanair.
I still think the route mix in Cork is wrong. Far too much emphasis on bucket and shovel routes which are entirely dependent on outbound travel. Now they're the ones facing head to head competition from Ryanair.
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^^ as to they above YOU DO NOT NO IF THE FOURTH EI HAS GONE!! the schedule has bits missing in loads of places take a look at DUB its usually Late June for the Winter 2010/2011 timetable is perfected....
There is no way in my opinion that i could see EI dropping its A320's off ORK-BHX & MAN the loads, yields are very high during Winter 2010/2011 with premiership matches & weekend gettaway breaks asweel as business travellers i travelled recently 22/05/10 outbound , returing 24/05/10 from MAN and i counted 148 on our flight of which the A320 holds 170 with 121 on the way back!
Where obiously not going to see a 5th A/C but the 4th A/C is more then likely to stay as i said before NOBODY NOES UNTIL the full schedule is released.
There is no way in my opinion that i could see EI dropping its A320's off ORK-BHX & MAN the loads, yields are very high during Winter 2010/2011 with premiership matches & weekend gettaway breaks asweel as business travellers i travelled recently 22/05/10 outbound , returing 24/05/10 from MAN and i counted 148 on our flight of which the A320 holds 170 with 121 on the way back!
Where obiously not going to see a 5th A/C but the 4th A/C is more then likely to stay as i said before NOBODY NOES UNTIL the full schedule is released.
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I am going to give Aer Lingus credit though!
Booked yesterday flight from Cork to Faro outbound 2/09/10, inbound 16/09/10 with Aer Lingus and with everything included for the 3 of us 2 bags (upto 20kg each) and assigned seating it came to €548.58 and where in high season now! thats just 2 months away i compared this to Ryanair the cheapest i got there including 2 cases and pre-boarding (EI eqivalant) it came to €754.59 !
i think EI have 1 that battle....
Booked yesterday flight from Cork to Faro outbound 2/09/10, inbound 16/09/10 with Aer Lingus and with everything included for the 3 of us 2 bags (upto 20kg each) and assigned seating it came to €548.58 and where in high season now! thats just 2 months away i compared this to Ryanair the cheapest i got there including 2 cases and pre-boarding (EI eqivalant) it came to €754.59 !
i think EI have 1 that battle....
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Ei Ork Winter Schedule
I'm afraid it's gone for the winter unless my reliable sources are wrong. Was in the balance untill recently. I'm also surprised that Ryanair's double daily Sunday service doesn't allow for a day trip to Anfield or Old trafford. A later 2nd flight would allow for that.
Does anyone know why WIZZ loaded any Cork flights for the Winter? Most of their other routes are for sale.
Does anyone know why WIZZ loaded any Cork flights for the Winter? Most of their other routes are for sale.
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''Most of Wizz Air's routes are for sale'' Thats pure and utter crap!
All their routes to/from Luton are on sale as are EI's London routes upto April 2011!
Just an example after October 31st 2010 from Gdansk:
Barcelona - Not bookable
Bergen - Not bookable
Cologne - Not bookable
Cork - Not bookable
Doncaster/Sheffield - Not bookable
Dortmund - Not bookable
Eindhoven - Not bookable
Glasgow/Prestwick - Not bookable
Hamburg/Lubeck - bookable
Liverpool - Not bookable
London/Luton - bookable
Malmo - Not bookable
Milan/Bergamo - Not bookable
Oslo/Torp - Not bookable
Paris/Beauvais - Not bookable
Rome/Fiumicino - Not bookable
Stockholm/Skavsta - Bookable
Tampere - Not bookable
Turku - Not bookable
RYAN2000 so nearly all routes except Cork are bookable are they? hopefully your sources are better!
All their routes to/from Luton are on sale as are EI's London routes upto April 2011!
Just an example after October 31st 2010 from Gdansk:
Barcelona - Not bookable
Bergen - Not bookable
Cologne - Not bookable
Cork - Not bookable
Doncaster/Sheffield - Not bookable
Dortmund - Not bookable
Eindhoven - Not bookable
Glasgow/Prestwick - Not bookable
Hamburg/Lubeck - bookable
Liverpool - Not bookable
London/Luton - bookable
Malmo - Not bookable
Milan/Bergamo - Not bookable
Oslo/Torp - Not bookable
Paris/Beauvais - Not bookable
Rome/Fiumicino - Not bookable
Stockholm/Skavsta - Bookable
Tampere - Not bookable
Turku - Not bookable
RYAN2000 so nearly all routes except Cork are bookable are they? hopefully your sources are better!
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Kav as we are on the subject of EI and Wizzair, it was stated by you on 31st Mar that EI were likely to drop SNN JFK for 2010/11 and on 24th ApRIL that ORK BUD ORk PRG was highly likely to emerge in 2010. I wonder how reliable those sources were?
SNN JFK is now loaded for the winter and there is no sign of either of the ORK routes.
There are more WIZZ bases than Gdansk and and quite a few routes are on sale. No Cork route are on sale yet. I'm just wondering why that is so?
The reality is that airlines are flip flopping all over the place at the moment. I don't think that sources and subscribers should be ridiculed just because senior planners in operations change their mind about a possible new route.
Sometimes even airport managers and marketing directors are
kept guessing untill hours before a press release
Otherwise the forum will be confined to reporting news that's already in the mainstream media.
SNN JFK is now loaded for the winter and there is no sign of either of the ORK routes.
There are more WIZZ bases than Gdansk and and quite a few routes are on sale. No Cork route are on sale yet. I'm just wondering why that is so?
The reality is that airlines are flip flopping all over the place at the moment. I don't think that sources and subscribers should be ridiculed just because senior planners in operations change their mind about a possible new route.
Sometimes even airport managers and marketing directors are
kept guessing untill hours before a press release
Otherwise the forum will be confined to reporting news that's already in the mainstream media.
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Ryan2000 i said EI would be operating DUB-SNN-JFK as to last year! i was wrong but who else predicted that Delta would be returning certinly none of your sources...
BUD, PRG i stand by as Wizz Air has bonded agreement's to expand at both (backed up by 100+ A/C orders)
My sources have been correct to the expansions at SNN re: EI Regional... (Check via the Shannon page on PPruNe)
I suggest a fifth EI mite be on the way to ORK i was obiously wrong but you seem to be talking the EI reduction litterly ''Wizz ORK not for sale'' Wizz are hardly going to axe their 5 routes which are more profitable then FR's DUB-Polish routes and thats a FACT!
BUD, PRG i stand by as Wizz Air has bonded agreement's to expand at both (backed up by 100+ A/C orders)
My sources have been correct to the expansions at SNN re: EI Regional... (Check via the Shannon page on PPruNe)
I suggest a fifth EI mite be on the way to ORK i was obiously wrong but you seem to be talking the EI reduction litterly ''Wizz ORK not for sale'' Wizz are hardly going to axe their 5 routes which are more profitable then FR's DUB-Polish routes and thats a FACT!
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I suppose the only infalliable sources are the people at the top of the airlines who make the decision to go with a new route and put their necks on the line. They often overule those that talk to our sources or simply reverse a decison due to changing circumstances.
There are so many competing influences and variables that it's impossible for any of us to get it right all of the time. Airlines frequently play airports off against each other before making a decision although I'm not for a moment suggesting that this is the case in relation to the EI 320 which will probably spend the winter on the ground in Dublin.
On the wider issue airlines should try and lessen their dependence on Irish people travelling to the sun . Surely EI and FR would be better off trying to develop routes that would promote inward business to Cork. Zurich, Frankfurt and Milan spring to mind. They would also get the marketing support of Tourism Ireland and others.
I don't wish to sound gloomy but there's no evidence that the worst of this downturn is over so don't be surprised if others cut back as well.
There are so many competing influences and variables that it's impossible for any of us to get it right all of the time. Airlines frequently play airports off against each other before making a decision although I'm not for a moment suggesting that this is the case in relation to the EI 320 which will probably spend the winter on the ground in Dublin.
On the wider issue airlines should try and lessen their dependence on Irish people travelling to the sun . Surely EI and FR would be better off trying to develop routes that would promote inward business to Cork. Zurich, Frankfurt and Milan spring to mind. They would also get the marketing support of Tourism Ireland and others.
I don't wish to sound gloomy but there's no evidence that the worst of this downturn is over so don't be surprised if others cut back as well.
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PLANE 1:
OPERATES 4 DAILY FLIGHTS TO LONDON/HEATHROW:
PLANE 2:
06:10 - (DEP) - AMS - DAILY
10:15 - (ARR) - AMS - DAILY
10:50 - (DEP) - CDG - DAILY
14:45 - (ARR) - CDG - DAILY
15:50 - (DEP) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
00:55 - (ARR) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
**As you can see There's no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday & Sunday Evening Slot.
PLANE 3:
06:40 - (DEP) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
12:55 - (ARR) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
06:40 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
12:05 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
13:30 - (DEP) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
16:55 - (ARR) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
14:00 - (DEP) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
22:50 - (ARR) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
17:30 - (DEP) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
23:10 - (ARR) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
**As you can see There's no Wednesday Evening Slot.
This certinly backs up the point the schedule isint fully released the 4th A320 could also do an Evening LGW who noes?? but what we do no is that the full schedule is not released!
OPERATES 4 DAILY FLIGHTS TO LONDON/HEATHROW:
PLANE 2:
06:10 - (DEP) - AMS - DAILY
10:15 - (ARR) - AMS - DAILY
10:50 - (DEP) - CDG - DAILY
14:45 - (ARR) - CDG - DAILY
15:50 - (DEP) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
00:55 - (ARR) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
**As you can see There's no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday & Sunday Evening Slot.
PLANE 3:
06:40 - (DEP) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
12:55 - (ARR) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
06:40 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
12:05 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
13:30 - (DEP) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
16:55 - (ARR) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
14:00 - (DEP) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
22:50 - (ARR) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
17:30 - (DEP) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
23:10 - (ARR) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
**As you can see There's no Wednesday Evening Slot.
This certinly backs up the point the schedule isint fully released the 4th A320 could also do an Evening LGW who noes?? but what we do no is that the full schedule is not released!
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the EI 320 which will probably spend the winter on the ground in Dublin.
Kavs8, thanks for specifying the aircraft usage thusfar for EI's A320's at Cork. The remaining gaps in the schedule would fill up nicely with evening services to Manchester and Birmingham, (both MTWTF-S), which has got me more convinced of the theory that Aer Lingus will reduce Cork to 3 A320's next winter. If this is the case, Cork passenger figures for 2010 will be outright scandalous.
If Aer Lingus is reducing Cork to 3 A320's then I believe it is a purely tactical move to "punish" Cork airport for high charges and to hereby exert pressure on the airport to reduce said charges. There are so many routes Aer Lingus could operate profitably out of Cork.
There are existing routes that would remain profitable with increased schedules: Amsterdam, Paris, Birmingham, Manchester, Barcelona, Geneva
There are 'recently' axed routes that could be brought back: Berlin, Madrid, Prague, (Rome)
There are new routes Aer Lingus could certainly make a go off from Cork: Brussels, Budapest, Milan, Palma de Mallorca, Frankfurt, Venice, Vilnius, Zurich.
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There are new routes Aer Lingus could certainly make a go off from Cork: Brussels, Budapest, Milan, Palma de Mallorca, Frankfurt, Venice, Vilnius, Zurich.
There would be some demand for these destinations but take Brussels for eg Jet Magic failed to capture the loads on a small Embraer (135?). Perhaps their name and reputation didnt attract the audience that would want to fly this route but still of the mind that Cork Brussels too marginal to be a runner, and also the frequency would need to be often enough to make it work.
Budapest, Milan and Frankfurt; same story here. The sectors are also longer than many others and I would question if they would work.
Aer Lingus did eg Belfast Milan and if I could draw a comparison between Cork Milan and Belfast Milan, this would lead me to believe that it would be a no go. Belfast Milan was a complete disaster, now it was winter and some aircraft were coming back up with 9 and 15 passengers! Jet 2 are doing a charter now and have no risk as a travel agent is selling the seats as far as I am aware.
If we were not in recession some of these would be possible but not yet and maybe a smaller type is needed eg Q400 or Embraer 170/190.
Palma is a must for the summer in my opinion, but then again while some route may work in summer the question is would Aer Lingus be sacrificing freqency on an existing profitable route?
Cutting LGW back to daily is a complete disaster and serves the point well that Aer Lingus should now decide not to open new routes (ie direct route matches eg ORK LGW) that are head to head with Ryanair as they will bleed cash and Ryanair will keep the pressure on until EI pull out. The Aer Arann/EI offering is another matter, as Aer Arann operating as Regional can compete more effectively as they can offer frequency and hopefully not be fully reliant on point to point traffic and hence having a limited exposure to Ryanair.
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Winter 2010 Aer Lingus at Cork
...pretty unlikely to see a 4th A32) at Cork for winter, but expect to see two more Aer Arann ATR-72s operating as EI Regional on double daily ORK-MAN and ORK-BHX (morning and evening), with the possibility of some more additional "middle of the day filler" routes ex-Cork on the same aircraft by Summer '11
If this happens, my guess is that it would be the older ATR-72s coming to RE from Air Contractors - hence why they probably wouldn't need to fly them so hard as the brand new ATR-72-500s (at least in the winter)
...pretty unlikely to see a 4th A32) at Cork for winter, but expect to see two more Aer Arann ATR-72s operating as EI Regional on double daily ORK-MAN and ORK-BHX (morning and evening), with the possibility of some more additional "middle of the day filler" routes ex-Cork on the same aircraft by Summer '11
If this happens, my guess is that it would be the older ATR-72s coming to RE from Air Contractors - hence why they probably wouldn't need to fly them so hard as the brand new ATR-72-500s (at least in the winter)
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If we were not in recession some of these would be possible but not yet and maybe a smaller type is needed eg Q400 or Embraer 170/190.
Budapest (Malev), Frankfurt (Lufthansa), Zurich (Swiss), Riga (airBaltic), Prague (CSA), Brussels (Brussels Airlines) could have a better chance with other native carriers, what with their smaller aircraft and the offering of onward connections. But I doubt any of these airlines ever spare a thought for Cork, so I'm not getting my hopes up.
On the subject of Cork to Brussels, (my favourite subject), there has never been a better time to (re)introduce this route:
- Ryanair have cancelled Shannon to Charleroi (was 3x weekly).
- Ryanair have reduce Dublin to Charleroi from 13x weekly to 7x weekly.
- This leaves Aer Lingus on Dublin to Brussels 13x weekly.
Since Ryanair's reductions, from Aer Lingus' 13x weekly flights (twice daily except Saturdays), 3 or 4 get upgraded to an A321. Almost half the flights get 100% load factor, often being booked out days in advance, even after being upgraded to an A321 only 3 weeks beforehand. In general all flights get a very healthy load factor (an average above 90% is almost certain).
I invite you to so some fictious bookings on Dublin to Brussels for the coming weeks. You will notice sold out flights, and many many oneway fares (before taxes etc) of 200+ euros 90 minute flight.
Also since Ryanair's reduction of capacity between Ireland and Belgium, Aer Lingus fares on Cork - Paris/Amsterdam have noticably increased. Already a lot of those needing to travel between Belgium and Cork had been using this solution, but now more than ever.
I've used Charleroi to Shannon/Dublin and Brussels to Dublin regularly over the last decade and the amount people with a final destination in Cork or Kerry is staggering.
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Geneva or Zurich - Geneva has at least now been established so is a safer bet and is a shortish flight though Zurich was there a long time ago so it is some food for thought all right. It is a farce that Geneva is reduced to just the one weekly rotation for the coming winter. Why not two flights at least - there is a good weekend type market yet to be tapped? Crazy, crazy decision I feel. Geneva can work throughout the year. Just look at an atlas - a lot of people live within two hours or so of Geneva.
Frankfurt would be worth a go again. Might help to get a few emigrants established in the Rhine area with jobs. Prague, maybe, once Ryanair quit Dublin Prague at the end of the summer season. A seaonal Palma would be a banker on a few days a week and it beats me why it has not all ready been tried. What is that mindset failing about -protecing Dublin Palma?
Cork is 50 next year in 2011? Is that right? It will be some year the way things are going. Oh, well. All there will be left are the memories of the Golden Age.
Frankfurt would be worth a go again. Might help to get a few emigrants established in the Rhine area with jobs. Prague, maybe, once Ryanair quit Dublin Prague at the end of the summer season. A seaonal Palma would be a banker on a few days a week and it beats me why it has not all ready been tried. What is that mindset failing about -protecing Dublin Palma?
Cork is 50 next year in 2011? Is that right? It will be some year the way things are going. Oh, well. All there will be left are the memories of the Golden Age.
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PLANE 1:
OPERATES 4 DAILY FLIGHTS TO LONDON/HEATHROW:
PLANE 2:
06:10 - (DEP) - AMS - DAILY
10:15 - (ARR) - AMS - DAILY
10:50 - (DEP) - CDG - DAILY
14:45 - (ARR) - CDG - DAILY
15:50 - (DEP) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
00:55 - (ARR) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
**As you can see There's no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday & Sunday Evening Slot.
PLANE 3:
06:40 - (DEP) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
12:55 - (ARR) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
06:40 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
12:05 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
13:30 - (DEP) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
16:55 - (ARR) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
14:00 - (DEP) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
22:50 - (ARR) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
17:30 - (DEP) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
23:10 - (ARR) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
**As you can see There's no Wednesday Evening Slot.
This certinly backs up the point the schedule isint fully released the 4th A320 could also do an Evening LGW who noes?? but what we do no is that the full schedule is not released!
OPERATES 4 DAILY FLIGHTS TO LONDON/HEATHROW:
PLANE 2:
06:10 - (DEP) - AMS - DAILY
10:15 - (ARR) - AMS - DAILY
10:50 - (DEP) - CDG - DAILY
14:45 - (ARR) - CDG - DAILY
15:50 - (DEP) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
00:55 - (ARR) - TFS - Wednesdays & Saturdays.
**As you can see There's no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday & Sunday Evening Slot.
PLANE 3:
06:40 - (DEP) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
12:55 - (ARR) - AGP - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
06:40 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
12:05 - (ARR) - BCN - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
13:30 - (DEP) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
16:55 - (ARR) - LGW - Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays & Sundays.
14:00 - (DEP) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
22:50 - (ARR) - ACE - Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays.
17:30 - (DEP) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
23:10 - (ARR) - MUC - Mondays, Fridays & Sundays
**As you can see There's no Wednesday Evening Slot.
This certinly backs up the point the schedule isint fully released the 4th A320 could also do an Evening LGW who noes?? but what we do no is that the full schedule is not released!
That is probably operated by Aircraft 2.
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There were some aircraft last year that weren't used for a period of the day, although doing that when there are only 3 aircraft would be strange.
In terms of the timetable that is up, the most sensible would be to use it for a 2nd Geneva rotation.
In terms of the timetable that is up, the most sensible would be to use it for a 2nd Geneva rotation.