LONDON CITY - 2
"Experts" and "Analysts"
These two groups of people / organisations are often staffed by people that have never "done the job" and just sit their analysing information and spouting nonsense in reports which are then given credence by a lazy media who's journalists consider it much easier to regurgitate press releases and rerports rather than doing a journalists job.
It's these groups that gave us an inadequate road system, with flawed traffic flow systems, and and completely un-integrated public transport systems - nationwide.
You have to ask, who paid for the report that proposes closing LCY. Was it Shelter, who are lobbying for more affordable housing, the Mayor's Office that still wants Boris Island, or perhaps a group of well heeled local resident NIMBYs? He who pays the piper, usually calls the tune!
Until you know who commissioned which report, you never understand any of the reasoning behind them.
It's these groups that gave us an inadequate road system, with flawed traffic flow systems, and and completely un-integrated public transport systems - nationwide.
You have to ask, who paid for the report that proposes closing LCY. Was it Shelter, who are lobbying for more affordable housing, the Mayor's Office that still wants Boris Island, or perhaps a group of well heeled local resident NIMBYs? He who pays the piper, usually calls the tune!
Until you know who commissioned which report, you never understand any of the reasoning behind them.
Thread Starter
This is not just a story. I once left Belfast City in a prop aircraft for LCY (when that route was still going) when my colleague was on the A320 departure for Heathrow immediately ahead. From the hold we watched them take off. Got to LCY, walked to car park, drove home, into house, phoned colleague. He was just standing up to disembark.
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LCY is brilliant, quick and convenient. I too have done the landing on 27, clear at C, park on Stand 1 and be on the DLR two minutes later.
The question I am posing is that do we continue going forward in isolation with a sporadic and non joined up transport policy? If Fantasy Island is approved, should LCY continue? Or if (when) LHR gets a runway 3, should LCY also be closed as a trade off? Now I am very pro aviation, but the air pollution in the parts of London far from the stockbroker belt is shameful. If we are to expand a national asset at LHR, plugged into Crossrail, might there be a case for closing LCY? Because it's already been built on a fiction of "only quiet aeroplanes" like the er.... Dash 7. Now many on here know this was a lie. Like Cameron lied about LHR. It's an airport of the privileged in the heart of the poorest burgh in the whole UK belching out a fair amount of noise to get bankers to NYC on an exec A318 rather than cross town?
They're talking about some serious expansion as well, so more grief for local people from bankers and second home owners.
WHBM's story is he has a good airport next to his house, me too I might add, my main point is it's surrounded by council estates who can't afford to use it, get all the grief and none of the benefits.
Btw many of the locals are not "well heeled".....
The question I am posing is that do we continue going forward in isolation with a sporadic and non joined up transport policy? If Fantasy Island is approved, should LCY continue? Or if (when) LHR gets a runway 3, should LCY also be closed as a trade off? Now I am very pro aviation, but the air pollution in the parts of London far from the stockbroker belt is shameful. If we are to expand a national asset at LHR, plugged into Crossrail, might there be a case for closing LCY? Because it's already been built on a fiction of "only quiet aeroplanes" like the er.... Dash 7. Now many on here know this was a lie. Like Cameron lied about LHR. It's an airport of the privileged in the heart of the poorest burgh in the whole UK belching out a fair amount of noise to get bankers to NYC on an exec A318 rather than cross town?
They're talking about some serious expansion as well, so more grief for local people from bankers and second home owners.
WHBM's story is he has a good airport next to his house, me too I might add, my main point is it's surrounded by council estates who can't afford to use it, get all the grief and none of the benefits.
Btw many of the locals are not "well heeled".....
The residents of Newham do get one benefit - namely private sector jobs with a stable employer. Of course many of the jobs have less than brilliant pay - should one therefore count McJobs as a major benefit in this case ?
Bear Behind
"It's an airport of the privileged in the heart of the poorest burgh in the whole UK belching out a fair amount of noise to get bankers to NYC on an exec A318 rather than cross town?"
Interesting. Were you aware that the A318 is, according to the microphones measuring the actual departure and arrival noise, the quietest aircraft operating from LCY today? Far quieter than the 'Whisper Jet' 146 of yesteryear or the Avro RJ of not-quite-so-yesteryear - and significantly quieter than the Embraer 190?
Interesting. Were you aware that the A318 is, according to the microphones measuring the actual departure and arrival noise, the quietest aircraft operating from LCY today? Far quieter than the 'Whisper Jet' 146 of yesteryear or the Avro RJ of not-quite-so-yesteryear - and significantly quieter than the Embraer 190?
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Are you sure that a CFM56 powered A318 is quieter than a 146?
Perhaps the light fuel load as only off to Shannon, but yes I do find that surprising.
Perhaps the light fuel load as only off to Shannon, but yes I do find that surprising.
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The official CAA Quota Count Noise category for an Airbus A318 is QC0.25 on Landing, QC 0.50 on takeoff. A BAE 146 is QC 0.25 for both landing and takeoff, obviously this does not relate to very specific operating circumstances and scenarios.
Bear Behind
Are you sure that a CFM56 powered A318 is quieter than a 146?
Perhaps the light fuel load as only off to Shannon, but yes I do find that surprising.
Perhaps the light fuel load as only off to Shannon, but yes I do find that surprising.
The official CAA Quota Count Noise category for an Airbus A318 is QC0.25 on Landing, QC 0.50 on takeoff. A BAE 146 is QC 0.25 for both landing and takeoff
obviously this does not relate to very specific operating circumstances and scenarios.
I know that until about 2008, Lufthansa operated flights to a number of Germany cities from LCY, which has now been reduced to just Frankfurt. I note that BA also operate to Frankfurt and Dusseldorf.
I realise that LH probably went slightly over the top with LCY routes, but it seems odd with a resurgent BACF, that places like Hamburg and Munich do not get a look in, given the large amounts of money in these 2 cities. After all, BACF manage to operate LCY-Stockholm.
I'm sure there's a good reason for all this, but I'm just struggling to figure it out. Would someone be kind enough to provide a link to a web page or a very brief explanation as to why LCY-HAM or LCY-MUC couldn't work now that the worst of the recession seems to be behind us ? These 2 destinations seem perhaps to be a better bet than LCY-Inverness. I could suggest other cities for whom double-daily LCY seems oddly lacking, but I think I'll stop at HAM and MUC
I realise that LH probably went slightly over the top with LCY routes, but it seems odd with a resurgent BACF, that places like Hamburg and Munich do not get a look in, given the large amounts of money in these 2 cities. After all, BACF manage to operate LCY-Stockholm.
I'm sure there's a good reason for all this, but I'm just struggling to figure it out. Would someone be kind enough to provide a link to a web page or a very brief explanation as to why LCY-HAM or LCY-MUC couldn't work now that the worst of the recession seems to be behind us ? These 2 destinations seem perhaps to be a better bet than LCY-Inverness. I could suggest other cities for whom double-daily LCY seems oddly lacking, but I think I'll stop at HAM and MUC
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I think with all the ATR / DHC8 offerings Lufthansa ended up cannibalising LHR services which are of course now going over to Germanwings. LCY is very particular I think, it needs very strong banking traffic EDI/ZRH/FRA or high margin point to point BSL/LUX/RTM/EIN or high volume like GLA/AMS.
Yes and drops it for the summer peak for high yield sun routes, remember BA's LCY-CPH was also tried and dropped (after SAS) which I thought would have done well.
It depends on the deal LCY have given flybe, I think perhaps GIP are unwilling to allow LCY to become a BA fortress and are looking to stir the pot.
After all, BACF manage to operate LCY-Stockholm.
It depends on the deal LCY have given flybe, I think perhaps GIP are unwilling to allow LCY to become a BA fortress and are looking to stir the pot.
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Those flights were mainly operated by Lufthansa partner airlines with 30-50 seaters (Contact Air, Augsburg, Cirrus). Those partner airlines no longer exist and Lufthansa has no suitable own equipment in the right places. The only aircraft left in the Lufthansa fleet useful for LCY ops are the E190s of Lufthansa Cityline. These are based in Frankfurt for hub feed (and operate the LCY route from there). Eurowings, which used to man the bases at places like HAM and DUS only has unsuitable CR9s, Munich no longer has Citlyine RJ85s but only E95s and CR9s etc. etc.
Additionally, Lufthansa seems to have decided that they will concentrate on LHR: There were times when they had a sizeable network out of STN, later they built up a presence at LCY. For the time being, it is all LHR.
Additionally, Lufthansa seems to have decided that they will concentrate on LHR: There were times when they had a sizeable network out of STN, later they built up a presence at LCY. For the time being, it is all LHR.
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Just curious
Now that CityJet has been acquired by Intro...does that mean that there might be a market for E190 operators (for instance Hop! or KLM Cityhopper) to establish flights to/from LCY?
Would routes to their European hubs be a good move?
Would routes to their European hubs be a good move?
Currently operated flights from LCY to respective hubs
Alitalia fly to Rome
BA fly to owner IAG's other hub in Madrid
Lufthansa fly to Frankfurt and used to fly to Munich
Cityjet operate AF/KL codeshare flights for previous owner AF-KL to Amsterdam and Paris-Orly
Skywork fly to Bern
Luxair fly to Luxembourg
Flybe will fly to Exeter
SN Brussels would presumably operate if the Eurostar weren't so competitive
SAS used to fly to Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm
Austrian used to fly to Vienna
Not sure how many other routes airlines might fly from LCY to their own hubs...
Alitalia fly to Rome
BA fly to owner IAG's other hub in Madrid
Lufthansa fly to Frankfurt and used to fly to Munich
Cityjet operate AF/KL codeshare flights for previous owner AF-KL to Amsterdam and Paris-Orly
Skywork fly to Bern
Luxair fly to Luxembourg
Flybe will fly to Exeter
SN Brussels would presumably operate if the Eurostar weren't so competitive
SAS used to fly to Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm
Austrian used to fly to Vienna
Not sure how many other routes airlines might fly from LCY to their own hubs...
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 24th Apr 2014 at 04:44.
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CDG is not a particularly convenient airport for downtown Paris compared with Orly, and CityJet has been trimming back its (once fabulously lucrative - until HS1 opened) Orly service in recent years. A CDG route would therefore rely on connecting traffic, and it's unclear what advantage LCY really brings for that compared with other London airports.
I don't think you will ever see an LCY-CDG service again. That's nothing to do with CityJet, just the nature of the traffic and the competition.
IMHO, Air France would be better advised to negotiate with Eurostar for direct trains St Pancras-CDG (and onward, perhaps to Lyon or Nice) which could carry an AF code.
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Are KLM permitted to re-launch AMS now CityJet has exited the group? That was a good route for them on the Fokker 50, I am sure BA would have better competition with a KLM Embraer.
Are KLM permitted to re-launch AMS now CityJet has exited the group?
Question is whether it is real organic growth or whether it is cannibalising some other airport.
Thread Starter
LCY seems to be getting a whole lot busy very quickly.
Airports like LHR or LGW have good outbound catchment areas. LCY less so.
By and large, it requires quite a bit of yield sacrifice for airlines to fill their morning departures from LCY.
. Strangely, for the summer Mediterranean departures to Palma and Ibiza etc, 0700 departures on Friday are notably popular.
Hubs ...... Alitalia fly to Rome
You have to wonder what imbecile travel agent would organise a business traveller, in suit, onto AMS-LCY-LHR-somewhere in the USA.