LONDON CITY - 2
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Actually yes you are entitled to compensation. It is highly unlikely that CityJet have rescheduled your flights days in advance due to extraordinary circumstances.
Because your flights have been canceled, you are entitled to compensation as they do not appear to have provided the minimum of 14 days notice. The only caution I can give however is, working in this area, it is not uncommon for travel agents to withhold this information from the passenger. If CityJet could prove they contacted your travel agent more than 14 days before you were due to fly, you are not 'entitled' to compensation however this would be very impressive (and clever) bearing in mind you made your reservation on April 30 for flights at the beginning of May (therefore not allowing 14 days in the beginning)
Usually airlines will only offer a refund so the fact that they have offered some other flights is a good start. Its just unfortunate that your own personal circumstances prevent you from using the new flights.
I have had to correct virginblue statements before concerning schedule changes. Look through the terms and conditions of your flight and I bet you will find wording saying that your booking does not form part of a contract. This is standard with airlines to get them out of such things and I know that the company I work for also have this in the small print.
Because your flights have been canceled, you are entitled to compensation as they do not appear to have provided the minimum of 14 days notice. The only caution I can give however is, working in this area, it is not uncommon for travel agents to withhold this information from the passenger. If CityJet could prove they contacted your travel agent more than 14 days before you were due to fly, you are not 'entitled' to compensation however this would be very impressive (and clever) bearing in mind you made your reservation on April 30 for flights at the beginning of May (therefore not allowing 14 days in the beginning)
Usually airlines will only offer a refund so the fact that they have offered some other flights is a good start. Its just unfortunate that your own personal circumstances prevent you from using the new flights.
I have had to correct virginblue statements before concerning schedule changes. Look through the terms and conditions of your flight and I bet you will find wording saying that your booking does not form part of a contract. This is standard with airlines to get them out of such things and I know that the company I work for also have this in the small print.
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Its always like that with cityjet....they decide everything at the very last minute...sometimes even with the passengers already onboard, not in your case obviously but sometimes its just unbelievable how that airline manage unexpected stuf.The summer schedule had been published just a week before it was suppose to started !!! Fantastic isn't it. Ask money! Air France wants happy customers, they will suit you for sure!
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Cityjet are pulling off the LCY, BFS route at the end of the month. Scotairways BFS crews have been given notice, with the offer of other bases, or redundancy. Cabin crew have been laid off.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I have had to correct virginblue statements before concerning schedule changes. Look through the terms and conditions of your flight and I bet you will find wording saying that your booking does not form part of a contract. This is standard with airlines to get them out of such things and I know that the company I work for also have this in the small print.
Airlines have been taken to court over their "small print" again and again. They simply write silly stuff in their small print because people like you believe if it is in the small print it must be true and according to the law. As a matter of fact, an airline is just a party to a contract and bound by the same principles of contract law as the milkman just around the corner. As most of this stuff nowadays is governed by EU law, it cannot be much different in the UK than in the civil law systems which I am, admittedly, more familiar with (anyway, there are standard principles of contract law).
Random recent examples of airline "small print" that have made judges laugh and led to the "small print" getting trashed in court:
- if you buy a return ticket, you must use the first leg or the return will be cancelled
- if you do not fly, you do not get back your taxes
- if your online payment is not honoured by your bank, you have to pay a 50 EUR fine
- if you miss your flight because we are delayed, we will not pay damages
- we are not responsible for technical faults
- we can change flight times as we please
Last edited by virginblue; 5th May 2008 at 20:31.
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I also fully appreciate your background and understand the different angle from which you are looking at the issue.
Although I have a legal background, for me it is always a simple business case. I would not waste amount X of my time for going after an amount Y of refund/damages etc. because almost every time the figures simply do not add up. As a matter of principle, I could have taken up some issues with airlines a couple of times, but I never did because I could not be bothered less. But this was an informed decision.
I tend to look at these issues somewhat more critical when I get the feeling that customers are treated like idiots because of an airline's SOP of using unenforcable small print, giving misleading information to complaining customers and refusing to deal with hiccups seriously. This even more so because airlines more than often cannot be bothered less if there is a problem at the customer side of the contract. While a lot of airlines expect customers to be understanding when the airline screws up, they simply follow the lawbook (or their small print) when the customer hopes for some understanding.
As for your example with the admin fee, I am still awaiting a court case on this. While airlines are indeed free to charge an admin fee, this admin fee must be reasonable, i.e. cover real costs incurred by the airline, and must not be just a figure taken out of the blue sky that is a mere deterrent. The 50 EUR admin fee I mentioned above for a bouncing online payment was small print of Germanwings until recently and it got trashed in court as unreasonable. Because of the reasonableness test, German LCCs do not charge an admin fee or limit it to 5 EUR when it comes to refunding taxes and fees. They are apparently quite aware of the legal ramnifications and do not want to be taken to court as this would result in a lot of unwanted publicity, i.e. make a lot people aware of the fact that fees have to be refunded.
The other example you gave is the good old force majeure card played by airlines more than often. If it is indeed force majeure, the airline gets off the hook, of course. However, scheduling, maintenance, being short of aircraft or crew, a contractor screwing up etc. is not force majeure, but a shortcoming in the airline's organization. Tough luck or maybe even unfair, but this is simply a question of risk distribution between two parties of a contract. The simple rule is if you cannot be sure to be able to meet your contractual obligations, do not enter into a contract. If you still do, that is fine but this is your risk, not the other party's. After all, if a customer wants to gamble, there are cheaper ways to do that than buying an airline ticket.
Btw, recently there was a funny case involving Lufthansa which had played the force majeure card after a flight cancellation. Because of the rules on evidence in place and a well-infromed claimant, they were forced to hand in their maintenance records - and to their surprise the claimant was an air force pilot who knew what he was talking about. He was able to demonstrate that the "maintenance issue" was rather minor and not a "no go" as Lufthansa had said earlier in the dispute. The jusge was not amused and so a red-faced Lufthansa had to cough up dough big time.
Although I have a legal background, for me it is always a simple business case. I would not waste amount X of my time for going after an amount Y of refund/damages etc. because almost every time the figures simply do not add up. As a matter of principle, I could have taken up some issues with airlines a couple of times, but I never did because I could not be bothered less. But this was an informed decision.
I tend to look at these issues somewhat more critical when I get the feeling that customers are treated like idiots because of an airline's SOP of using unenforcable small print, giving misleading information to complaining customers and refusing to deal with hiccups seriously. This even more so because airlines more than often cannot be bothered less if there is a problem at the customer side of the contract. While a lot of airlines expect customers to be understanding when the airline screws up, they simply follow the lawbook (or their small print) when the customer hopes for some understanding.
As for your example with the admin fee, I am still awaiting a court case on this. While airlines are indeed free to charge an admin fee, this admin fee must be reasonable, i.e. cover real costs incurred by the airline, and must not be just a figure taken out of the blue sky that is a mere deterrent. The 50 EUR admin fee I mentioned above for a bouncing online payment was small print of Germanwings until recently and it got trashed in court as unreasonable. Because of the reasonableness test, German LCCs do not charge an admin fee or limit it to 5 EUR when it comes to refunding taxes and fees. They are apparently quite aware of the legal ramnifications and do not want to be taken to court as this would result in a lot of unwanted publicity, i.e. make a lot people aware of the fact that fees have to be refunded.
The other example you gave is the good old force majeure card played by airlines more than often. If it is indeed force majeure, the airline gets off the hook, of course. However, scheduling, maintenance, being short of aircraft or crew, a contractor screwing up etc. is not force majeure, but a shortcoming in the airline's organization. Tough luck or maybe even unfair, but this is simply a question of risk distribution between two parties of a contract. The simple rule is if you cannot be sure to be able to meet your contractual obligations, do not enter into a contract. If you still do, that is fine but this is your risk, not the other party's. After all, if a customer wants to gamble, there are cheaper ways to do that than buying an airline ticket.
Btw, recently there was a funny case involving Lufthansa which had played the force majeure card after a flight cancellation. Because of the rules on evidence in place and a well-infromed claimant, they were forced to hand in their maintenance records - and to their surprise the claimant was an air force pilot who knew what he was talking about. He was able to demonstrate that the "maintenance issue" was rather minor and not a "no go" as Lufthansa had said earlier in the dispute. The jusge was not amused and so a red-faced Lufthansa had to cough up dough big time.
Last edited by virginblue; 5th May 2008 at 20:40.
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LCY Departure Lounge
I flew out to AMS this morning and went through departures as normal. WOW! They have at last provided more space and it's so much better than the old space. There was a table for me to sit at and plug my laptop into, nice chairs, some new shops (which for us old hands is ideal!). Thye havent gone overboard with lots of seats or shops, it just feels nice and open. Well done LCY. We have been moaning on here for a while about how congested the departure lounge was and at last you have listened!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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The only new addition at present is WHSmith which sells everything Hughes & Hughes does only dearer. 
I had a nose round yesterday and theres a section that has yet to open to passengers housing a couple of nice 61" plasma screens. As to what they will be used for... who knows! Probably Routers and BBC News 24.
I had a nose round yesterday and theres a section that has yet to open to passengers housing a couple of nice 61" plasma screens. As to what they will be used for... who knows! Probably Routers and BBC News 24.
Thread Starter
Infuriating CityJet treatment – Part 2
Unbelievable – the only word for it. Now sit down with a good drink and listen.
Following the story from post #584 above, I went over to London City at about 1545 for the “rescheduled” 1645 departure to Belfast. Over to the check-in machines, put my details in, and up it comes for a departure time for me of – 1945. This is of course the old departure time for the late evening flight I was given to believe was cancelled, along with my lunchtime one I was originally booked on.
The check-in attendant started to give me a lecture about the schedules “now have changed for ze summer timetable”. Sorry, wrong punter to give this lecture to.
Over to ticketing. Now I was ticketed on the 1340 departure which I was advised was now operating at 1645, then when I get to the airport that is in turn now rearranged to 1945. So I believe I am entitled to TWO EC compensation payments, one for each gross delay. So I hold out for that, advising the agent to go and seek authority from the Station Manager. It sure takes some explaining, but eventually the harassed supervisor comes over and agrees ! So they both set to on dealing with this. I ask, and have confirmed, that the 1945 is actually operating.
In passing it is described what a cock-up the whole rearrangement has been, with the auto-checkin machines having different details to the FIDS screens, which in turn are different to realty. So there is a huge amount of keying to the computer, which is having none of this. Cancelled ? No, it won’t have that. So they try Overbooked. No, not allowed either.
Then, while loking at a screen, they start speaking about a 1645 departure. I ask if the flight is actually leaving at 1645 now, not 1945. They say yes, that is what it now says, it is going at 1645. They are surprised as well. So only one lot of compensation. But if I hadn’t spotted the change in conversation I could well have gone away and come back for 1945 to find the last plane long gone. Oh, and by the time I had to leave to go for the flight they still couldn’t get the computer to cough up the compensation, despite substantial reference to a manual which described how to do it. But not correctly, it would seem.
They sort of seemed prepared for it all in that they were ready with transfers to Dublin flights and vouchers for taxis from there to the north. London City used to be exempt from such nonsenses. Not any more, I’m afraid.
Doors on the 1645 departure were closed at 1725. Skipper says something about the schedule change having caught the ground staff “on the hop”. An understatement. Nice flight as ever on a Scot Airways aircraft, but they told me that May 23 was indeed the last day, and the Belfast crews have been told and will be dispersed. The Air France website however still shows the flights into June. And they seem happy to take bookings. What a way to run an airline.
Following the story from post #584 above, I went over to London City at about 1545 for the “rescheduled” 1645 departure to Belfast. Over to the check-in machines, put my details in, and up it comes for a departure time for me of – 1945. This is of course the old departure time for the late evening flight I was given to believe was cancelled, along with my lunchtime one I was originally booked on.
The check-in attendant started to give me a lecture about the schedules “now have changed for ze summer timetable”. Sorry, wrong punter to give this lecture to.
Over to ticketing. Now I was ticketed on the 1340 departure which I was advised was now operating at 1645, then when I get to the airport that is in turn now rearranged to 1945. So I believe I am entitled to TWO EC compensation payments, one for each gross delay. So I hold out for that, advising the agent to go and seek authority from the Station Manager. It sure takes some explaining, but eventually the harassed supervisor comes over and agrees ! So they both set to on dealing with this. I ask, and have confirmed, that the 1945 is actually operating.
In passing it is described what a cock-up the whole rearrangement has been, with the auto-checkin machines having different details to the FIDS screens, which in turn are different to realty. So there is a huge amount of keying to the computer, which is having none of this. Cancelled ? No, it won’t have that. So they try Overbooked. No, not allowed either.
Then, while loking at a screen, they start speaking about a 1645 departure. I ask if the flight is actually leaving at 1645 now, not 1945. They say yes, that is what it now says, it is going at 1645. They are surprised as well. So only one lot of compensation. But if I hadn’t spotted the change in conversation I could well have gone away and come back for 1945 to find the last plane long gone. Oh, and by the time I had to leave to go for the flight they still couldn’t get the computer to cough up the compensation, despite substantial reference to a manual which described how to do it. But not correctly, it would seem.
They sort of seemed prepared for it all in that they were ready with transfers to Dublin flights and vouchers for taxis from there to the north. London City used to be exempt from such nonsenses. Not any more, I’m afraid.
Doors on the 1645 departure were closed at 1725. Skipper says something about the schedule change having caught the ground staff “on the hop”. An understatement. Nice flight as ever on a Scot Airways aircraft, but they told me that May 23 was indeed the last day, and the Belfast crews have been told and will be dispersed. The Air France website however still shows the flights into June. And they seem happy to take bookings. What a way to run an airline.
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BA just sent me a text to say my flight to Glasgow on Wednesday evening has been cancelled... what's 
going on?
Looks like they have cancelled a few flights today as well... now gotta go via T5.
##
Also where do CityJet get their staff from? zay ave zee strongest French accents.,.. most people cant understand thier announcements,,, Where is Hedinboourg? is it somewhere near Edinburgh!
rant over.. feel better now
going on? Looks like they have cancelled a few flights today as well... now gotta go via T5.
##
Also where do CityJet get their staff from? zay ave zee strongest French accents.,.. most people cant understand thier announcements,,, Where is Hedinboourg? is it somewhere near Edinburgh!
rant over.. feel better now
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Phil - I think you'll find that Cityflyer are unfortunately having a few technical problems with a couple of aircraft and with the start of some new routes this has meant no spare so regrettably some flights have been cancelled.
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A few technical aircraft 
Its an everyday occurance to be honest... There are new routes starting, there are scheduled cancelations and there are not enough aircraft that is true, but why not sort out the issues that cause the problems, before creating more problems that need to be solved?
Outsourcing for the new routes is a short term fix...
With first hand experience of the BACityflyer operation, it has improved recently, but still a very very long way short of satisfactory performance.
Either invest in the existing fleet or invest in a new fleet. It cannot continue to go on like it is now.
The passengers know the score too. They are regular flyers who continue to be jacked about more often than not. Any other business who treated their customers in this way would be out of business by now.
Come on Willie, cough up the cash to sort it out. You have excellent crews who are being pushed to the limits by crewing, ops and the management... Do something about it before its too late!
Its an everyday occurance to be honest... There are new routes starting, there are scheduled cancelations and there are not enough aircraft that is true, but why not sort out the issues that cause the problems, before creating more problems that need to be solved? Outsourcing for the new routes is a short term fix...
With first hand experience of the BACityflyer operation, it has improved recently, but still a very very long way short of satisfactory performance.
Either invest in the existing fleet or invest in a new fleet. It cannot continue to go on like it is now.
The passengers know the score too. They are regular flyers who continue to be jacked about more often than not. Any other business who treated their customers in this way would be out of business by now.
Come on Willie, cough up the cash to sort it out. You have excellent crews who are being pushed to the limits by crewing, ops and the management... Do something about it before its too late!
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Slick new departure lounge
Flew to ZRH out of LCY today. Took three minutes to get from the bottom of the escalator to the entrance of the departure lounge. Nervously walked left rather than right when I got inside the departure lounge. Nice new smell of leather. The lounge looks AMAZING! New power sockets a nice touch for laptops. Had a walk around the new bit around the corner. Very nice. Much less crowded now. This is what a business airport should be. Glad to see LCY returning to its roots.
Last edited by goofyprune; 3rd Mar 2009 at 16:26. Reason: Spelling
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Good to see one of the BACF RJ85s (G-LCYB) operating in and out of EDI the past few mornings. Heres hoping its the start of better things to come. 
Titan Airways must be rubbing their hands with glee... With the new routes and ever tech aircraft, it must be Christmas come early for Titan!
** They had a B757-200 and a 146-200 side by side in EDI yesterday. Both in the black/white/orange with stars livery. (Stands 10 and 11 onto airbridges)
Titan Airways must be rubbing their hands with glee... With the new routes and ever tech aircraft, it must be Christmas come early for Titan!
** They had a B757-200 and a 146-200 side by side in EDI yesterday. Both in the black/white/orange with stars livery. (Stands 10 and 11 onto airbridges)
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How does slot allocation at LCY work?
Rumour has it that LCY does no longer allocate slots for aircraft smaller than 70 seats, so the slots for a new Eastern service cannot come from the airport's slot pool but must have been acquired on the grey market from Euromanx. I suppose as soon as an airline goes bust, the slots are automatically returned to the slot pool, so the transfer technically must have taken place before the liquidators were called in. However, I seem to remember a rumour that the Euromanx slots actually were slots held by Flybe that were leased to Euromanx. If this was true, I would find it somewhat surprising if Flybe allowed Eastern to use the slots (not sure if the Flybe involvement is true at all - seems a bit unlikely given Flybe's own operation at LGW and LTN and the fact that slots are quite sought after at LCY so that Flybe could have long cashed in on them).
Rumour has it that LCY does no longer allocate slots for aircraft smaller than 70 seats, so the slots for a new Eastern service cannot come from the airport's slot pool but must have been acquired on the grey market from Euromanx. I suppose as soon as an airline goes bust, the slots are automatically returned to the slot pool, so the transfer technically must have taken place before the liquidators were called in. However, I seem to remember a rumour that the Euromanx slots actually were slots held by Flybe that were leased to Euromanx. If this was true, I would find it somewhat surprising if Flybe allowed Eastern to use the slots (not sure if the Flybe involvement is true at all - seems a bit unlikely given Flybe's own operation at LGW and LTN and the fact that slots are quite sought after at LCY so that Flybe could have long cashed in on them).
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yep - the new lounges are pretty impressive, must have at least doubled the size.
Looks like the work on the new apron is just about finished as well.
Nice to have some good news.
Still a bit of a pain being crowded into those little rooms at the gate before boarding.
BTW - the FunDay on Sat 5 July afternoon is nomally quite good, bit of an airshow and all for free.
Looks like the work on the new apron is just about finished as well.
Nice to have some good news.
Still a bit of a pain being crowded into those little rooms at the gate before boarding.
BTW - the FunDay on Sat 5 July afternoon is nomally quite good, bit of an airshow and all for free.
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LCY Lounge/Fun Day
As posted before the lounge is excellent. I think the new gate lounges will be bigger as wel? I can vouch for the funday. I have been for the last few fundays and they are excellent!