Oyindo

Capt. Manuvar

Heard a rumour that the A319's will be wet leased. While boeing have made a offer to good to be turned down for the NG's. Buy one get one free. Any news on what the basic fleet will be?

I feel an all airbus fleet will make training and operations easier with crew being able to fly the A319's and the A340's at the same time subject to the NCCA. A few airlines do that in Europe.

The A319's have been quite successful in Europe especially with the LCC (Low Cost Airlines).

Do wishes VN the very best. They will need it

Rani

I agree, an-all Airbus fleet is practical for cockpit commonality, some practitioners: BMI, Iberia, Finnair, Air France, Qatar, Air Canada, etc.

Where are the oyinbos (Harford and Co) with their press release?
I've emailed the recruitment dept. but got no reply so far regarding required type rating.

IATA regulations mention they can't get an IATA 2-letter code beforing getting the NCAA AOC. I wonder, if NCAA and other regulatory agencies, sometimes issue "provisional" AOCs to expedite the process for the lucky few...

I heard they will move their ops to the domestic terminal in LOS once that's finished in December (fingers crossed).

Go VN......The skies are waiting

Oyindo

Rani

I don’t think you will get much out of the recruitment department. They will be inundated with applications by now; it was difficult trying to get on the web site a couple of days ago.

There is an advert in the latest flight international 5-11 Apr 05. Just a mention on hour requirements for Capt’s and F/O’s but no indication of a/c type except training will be on a modern aircraft. Your guess will be as good as mine.

Pilots will be based in Lagos and will require a right of abode. ECOWAS pilots should qualify (ex Air Afrique etc). They are interested in expatrate Nigerians, I don’t know how many there are and if they will be interested in relocating especially if the conditions offered don’t make it worth there while.

The oyinbo’s will require work permits, which might be a slight problem, nothing a bit of dash won’t solve. The safety factor in Lagos will be a big consideration for them, but I am sure a few SF/O’s from VS will take the plunge if offered quick commands. I hear it’s being offered, lets hope what happens in one or two aviation companies down the Hill in GA, does not rear it's ugly head in VN.

With the full backing of OBJ, the ministry and a bit of dash in the right hands (beware the EFCC maybe watching), issuing an AOC should not be a problem thus every thing else should fall in to place (IATA codes etc) by summer when operations are expected to begin.

Happy Day’s ahead.

NIJASEA

Does anybody out there know why VN is looking to bring in foriegn pilots to fly out of Lagos coz i just saw the Ad in FI and find it odd that the bar set for Ops out of nigeria is higher than that set by Emirates to fly a 777. There is speculations that the Ad is not meant for nigerian pilots but foriegn crew, We nigerian pilots have not all finished applying as the closing date is the 27th of April and already they feel they need to source other crew without seeing what we have to offer. If the Ad was not meant for nigerian crew does Richie believe we dont subscribe to FI in nigeria, We in Nigeria are sure of our abilities as pilots and a lot of us have more experience than most of the crew who join virgin"A". To consider F/Os must have 3000hrs jet time in an african country is ridiculous as a lot of operators fly Turbo-props and I believe not setting any age limitations or upgrading F/Os from within Virgin itself is a way of sending the unwanted crew from Europe to dump in Africa and in the case of crew moving from Virgin to Virgin nigeria its a case of why pay for mediocre crew when we can pass them off to someone else and get crew who meet the standards for command in a real airline.
I would like to say that we have worked well in nigeria with outdated aircrafts and a lot of us will suprise the powers that be at Virgin nigeria if given modern machines and a CHANCE.

HappyPilot

I agree with sentiments above, when it boils down to it, they'll have to take majority Nigerian crew bcos there are more than enough who have the ability over there.

There's no way Nigerians will sit by and watch foriegners take over an airline(in which they have majority shares in) when there are alot of ex-airways guys who fulfil those requirements(its just not gonna happen). You only have to hang around the local wing of lagos airport to get a true understanding of just how much experience is floating around. Virgin Nigeria has some serious opposition from the ex-employees of Nigeria airways and all kinds of liquidation problems, so I'm sure they wont wanna do anything to compound their problems.

But to be fair to them, I do agree with the idea of sending Virgin Atlantic training captains to Nigeria(for a short while) if they intend to use the A320, A340 etc. Cos not many are rated and hav experience on those a/c's. But co-pilots?? Hell no. But lets not panic yet, lets see what the management plan to do.

HP

Oyindo

Looking at Virgin Atlantic’s requirements for prospective candidates they should meet the following criteria:
* At least 2500 - 3000 hours total time
* Commercial candidates should have a minimum of 1500 hours commercial jet time (BAe 146 or above)
* UK issue JAA ATPL
* MCC qualified
* Right of abode in the EU

While Virgin Nigeria requirements for First Officers must have a total of
* 3,000 hours on jet aircraft.
* All pilots must have a JAA ATPL (or a similar transferable licence),
* Class One medical,
* Right to abode in Nigeria.

I am of the opinion that higher restrictions are put in place to prevent/reduce the number of Nigerian Pilots qualifying for jobs within Virgin Nigeria. They will be able to put a case to the powers that be, justifying the need to have as many oyinbo’s in position as they can to meet any short fall. It will not surprise me if at least 49% of the pilot work force will be oyinbo’s.

A precedence has been set by at least one company in GA where high requirements have been put in place to prevent Nigerian Pilots getting jobs, of course supported by an Oil company, while the powers that be still gives their full support to these practices. There are Nigerian Pilots within that company with more experience in Total Time and aircraft types than any of the oyinbo’s. Yet the Nigerians fly as co-pilots to the less experienced oyinbo’s.

The Nigerian Pilot is very capable if given half a chance and will be able to meet the very high Virgin Nigeria standards required to operate the modern aircraft's promised. For those Nigerian Boeing Pilot’s out there, the Airbus (side stick) is easier to fly and operate than a Boeing once you get to fly it, I’m told.

ac100

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I hate to say this, but Mr Branson is not in the business of making Nigeria a happy place. Nigeria is a place where he sees money and that is that. Whether it be Airlines or telecommunication companies, he wants a piece of the every growing Nigerian pie.

I agree with you all that there are an abundance of qualified pilots and no reason why VN should have not hire pilots from the country it intends to be a natinal carrier for.

The insurance companies have probably set a price to recruit local pilot and Richard is not willing to pay it. Therefore, next step, hire Expats and take local jobs away from the locals as he has to worry about how to pay for his next stunt.

HMMMMM, let me see, national airline or profit?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I think you all know what Mr. Branson wants and i would rethink patting him on the back for making money in your country at your expense. remember, whatever happens he take fifty percent of the money the airline makes. Considering that International operations are not planned for at least 3 years, i think Virgin atlantic will be even busier with Virgin Nigeria making bookings for them, promoting an international route network. Result 100% of the profit Mr. Branson........I think there is a picture appearing here.

On a better note, there is a carrier which is very close to starting operations and at this time i am restricted by friendship to disclose more. However, i will say this.....an announcement will be made very shortly and they will be hiring locals as the airline is a 100% owned by Nigerians. A true Nigerian airline is on its way....support your own and not Mr. Bransons ever increasing bank balance. IMHO

Good luck

AC100

AlternativeProcedure

Just out of interest, this is Virgin Blue's(our Australian counterparts) requirement for pilots.

Compare it with the above post regarding requirements and make your own minds up.

AlternativeProcedure

But surely, an expat Pilot costs far more than a local pilot would(ask ACN, Bristow etc), with all the time off, travel and hotel expenses that employing an expat brings, it has to make more economic sense to choose the cheaper option, and this is assuming that the insurance companies do prefer a foreigner flying in Nigeria than a Nigerian flying in Nigeria?????

But I do agree with the main point of your post though, the bearded one is here to make money and whatever option he feels is going to cost him less is the option he\'ll take.

Just of interest, I was at the international wing last night, and there are big banners every where now advertising Virgin Nigeria, things definitely seem to be moving at a quick pace.

AP

Dogma

As usual with recruitment they will put together their "wish list" and see what they get.

Rest assured that unless the deal is spectacular with bells on, No Virgin SFO or Captain will go to Nigeria. For that matter few Western pilots with good jet time will be interested.

Frankly speaking, some of the views expressed on this forum and bordering on being xenophobic and racist. "Oyinbo" is really a derogatory term for a Caucasian.

In the UK we have not prevented any foreign national with a CAA ticket from working as a pilot. In fact some of the most decent pilots I know in the UK have Nigerian heritage.

Good luck to Virgin Nigeria, they will need it if this forum is anything to go by!

HappyPilot

Nonsense!!! If an airline is starting up in the UK, imagine the outcry there would be if British nationals were indirectly being prevented from getting jobs in it. Even foreign companies company coming to invest in the UK employ majority British, that is how it is done world wide and so it should be.

Another wrong statement. "Oyinbo" is an Urhoubo language(Niger delta) term for describing a person of lighter skin colour. Please please please, it is NOT a derogatory statement. I am mixed race and I get called that often. Bcos Nigerian broken english originated from the Niger Delta area, that was the term that became accepted as the way of describing people of lighter colour when speaking broken english.

Enough education and history for one day, lets please keep this thread to Virgin Nigeria related stuff

Dogma

Sorry but that is not in the context that Mr. Oyindo is using the term Oyinbo. I for one find it offensive now as I have done in the past.

The company will try to recruit the best person for the job, as in the UK. If the nationals do not as yet meet the grade to operate in the challenging W African environment, in the short to medium term foreign pilots will do!

Development of the indigenous pilot base will no doubt follow

Oyindo

Mr Dogma

You may need to take up Nigerian patwah lessons to improve your knowledge of the language. Your “lah de da” post shows you maybe a bit narrow minded in that area, a few lessons should bring you up to speed. You may even get to learn a few racist expressions, thus be able to tell the difference between a racist remark and one that isn’t. It’s quite a funny and expressive language when you get to understand it.

There was nothing derogatory about my statements, just stating a few simple facts. Some times the truth hurts and some people hide behind racist accusations. And as you may have read from other ppruners remarks above, Oyinbo is not a derogatory word. Your remarks after being enlightened shows it may be difficult teaching an old dog new tricks. Try and have an open mind life will be so much easier.

____________________________________________________
Your Quote:
Rest assured that unless the deal is spectacular with bells on, No Virgin SFO or Captain will go to Nigeria. For that matter few Western pilots with good jet time will be interested.
____________________________________________________

There were western pilots (so as not to offend Mr Dogma) that operated with OKADA a few years back, used the system and as soon as they got the relevant experience move back to Europe. There are a few out there, who will be willing to sell their souls. They could use VN to get the relevant experience and move on while not putting much back into the system.

Time to command in VS from joining to command is about 10 years a bit shorter in other ailines. So for SF/O’s especially being offered quick commands, may find it a good deal in the short term. VN could be used as a training ground for pilots from them. Up grades for the nationals may be slow, even few and far between.
As there isn't an effective pilots union in Nigeria to protect its nationals; it wouldn’t be long before the nationals pick up arms if this happens at the expense of progression and growth of aviation in Nigeria.

I will like to see VN grow to become one of the gaints in Africa, where everyone is treated equally and not at the expense of it nationals.

Well that's my kobo's, worth.

Oyindo

A bit more information to support to my previous post.

If you have not been following a thread on Terms and Endearment. The topic: BA F/O’s Wanting GSS commands. The thread started over a year ago, it is quite enlightening to see the reactions and the thought process of fellow aviators. It is quite interesting reading. There are not very many happy F/O’s in that company since secondment saga, while upgrades for GSS F/O’s have been put back to just over 5 years now. BALPA has of course given its full backing.

My point is that some thing similar could easily happen in Virgin Nigeria.

Sheep Guts

Anybody know what type they intend operating? The website photo has a hint of airbus about it. Or are they checking the submitted resumes to see whats the most abundant.

Sheep

AlternativeProcedure

Sheep,

the simple truth is that nobody trully knows, I think they initially had the idea of bringing the Airbus series, but having found out that most people here aren't rated on those babies, they might have changed their minds. But there's a lot of "ifs" and "might's". No one knows yet.

For those of you aircraft/technical buffs out there, what would be the best option for regional ops airbus or boeing and if boeing which of the series?

AP

Capt. Manuvar

VN advertised in the Saturday Punch (local nigerian paper) and specified the 3000/6000hrs requirement for Cojo's and capts. The requirements seem quite high, i just hope their pay matches their requiremnents. I also hope there is no disparity between expatriate and local pay packages.
ac100
are you sure that intl ops are not planned for the next 3 years? cos thats where the money is in my own opinion. I don;t see them surviving on Los abv acc phc
Dman
I heard a rumour that VN "stole" 'all' your cabin crew and some of your other staff. If dem "steal" all una pilot in the next couple of months she we small boys go fit get job for una side?

surely not

Some of the posts on here are spectacularly wide of the mark and can only be an attempt by the posters to get 'real info' for their own agendas.

Time will show who has been talking rubbish and who hasn't, but several claims on here are way off the mark!

Tokunbo

I think Virgin Atlantic have the friendliest and most helpful check-in and cabin staff in Nigeria already and if they can keep up the same standard for VN it will certainly help promote a good image of the company.

For those Oyinbos who need to sabi more pidgin I can recommend:

Babawilly's Dictionary of Pidgin English

I know nothing about Virgin, so I'll wait to get shot down by those in the know, but from what I see flying out of Nigeria, they already seem to employ more Nigerian staff than other airlines and I see no reason why they wouldn't continue in the same way, (especially if it means they can reduce their wages bill a bit). I think they will revitalise the Nigerian airline industry and will end up bringing more jobs for Nigerians as they expand their network.

ac100

Capt. Manuvar,

Your statement in regards to a domestic operation are totally correct, so you have to ask yourself why start on money losing routes?? One arguement is building a feeder network for your future international fleet which is a fair arguement. However, just like the India carriers such as Jet Airways and Sahara who both started domestic service upon start, made money, and are now starting up international operations.

50 million is not enough funds to have a domestic money losing operation and then start international operations in the future, you simply will need more money.

Virgim Atlantic can service Virgin Nigeria, but at a price!! Therefore Mr. Branson is still winning. The only people losing out are the nigeria investors and people.

Mr. Branson sees a large market in Nigeria. However, his interest are not just in Aviation. You may have noticed that in December or January the Virgin Group started negotiations in purchasing a stake in a telecommunications firm in Nigeria. VN was just a way to get in to the country and carry support of the government. I am not Nigerian, therefore have nothing to lose from VN's creation. It is just a warning to those of you who think that VN will be working for Nigeria.......Mr Branson is only working for himself......be careful how you give your support. Best of luck

Surely Not,

Rather than coming into this forum and making remarks that we are well off the track, why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom. Talk is cheap without some sort of arguement to back up your statements.

AC100

Rani

AC100,

Surely long haul routes will bring higher yields to VNA as compared to domestic routes, however...

Your opinion that Nigerian domestic routes are unprofitable, at least the ones Virgin Nigeria intends to launch with, is totally unfounded. If routes such as Lagos-Abuja (1,500 pax daily both ways), P/Harcourt / Kano were unprofitable , independent carriers would not have focussed on these markets alone and abandoned other so-called "unviable" airports. "Nigerian factor" in business is at play here: Minimum investment, cut corners, target of overnight profit, lack of long-term vision. In fact, some of the established independent carriers have thrived for years focussing on these trunk routes.

Relatively speaking, Virgin Nigeria is 'capitalized' in comparison to typical "tokunbo" start-ups in Nigeria. The new flag carrier will introduce fuel-efficient and environment-friendly aircraft types to Nigeria, along with much awaited airline IT solutions (such as e-ticketing) which optimize operations, reduce costs, and simplify procedures which all serve to enhance profitability. Of course internet penetration is still very low in Nigeria but you've got to start somwhere.

IMHO the independents will face a monumental challenge in surviving, yet alone competing effectively. I should say I'm very surprised that the Nigerian airline sector is not witnessing consolidation as in the banking sector.

Regarding the start-up capital, VNA through its press releases made it clear that once the airline is airborne, an Initial Public Offering (IPO) will be made on NSE in order to raise further capital base necessary for expansion (routes and long-term fleet finance).

You're right that Richard Branson is looking after his own interest as well but I believe the VNA arrangement will be mutually benefitial to Nigeria as well. I think we should avoid pre-judging the outcome of Virgin's recuirtment drive, and realize that on the medium to long run, training of Nigerian flight crew on the type to be operated would have been complete and thus increasing the number of Nigerian pilots to a majority.

Finally, I don't think it's fair to label Branson a neo-colonialist out to milk Nigeria. I am not implying he should be welcomed with open arms and zero scrutiny either. So far, I think both Branson and FGN are playing their cards well.

Let's not forget that Financial Derivatives' invitation for strategic partners to invest in a new flag carrier yielded no interest from strategic investors apart from South African Airways. The 3 previous attempts to float a national airline were pathetic in both seriousness and transparency.

I believe Virgin's courageous and entrepreneurial entry to the Nigerian airline industry will usher in a new era of a reliable, modern airline industry which will only serve to attract further foreign direct investment in the country.


Rani