NTSB to probe Fedex/Southwest close encounter at Austin
Another close one, at least separation seems to be maintained - Hollywood Burbank; incoming aborted 1 mile out for another plane on the runway.
I cut a lot there, some of which I disagree with but this one cannot let stand un-challenged. Are you certain you wanted to use "equity" and not "equality"? I assure you, I've been around the sun a few times, and 'equity' is and never will be a necessity or we are done as a civilization.
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The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Totally wrong here. the lifestyle is the same as for cabin crew which are overwhelmingly female ( for the same reasons basically ) and in Germany, both the DFS for controllers and Lufhansa for pilots following a very aggressive recruiment campains with adverts in social media, cinemas, TV, ec t showing the jobs are performed by women, is experiencing a very large interest in applications from women.
You fit the classic example of someone who refuses to accept reality and no matter how many times reality hits you on the face, you desperately search for some excuse to justify your opinion which never changes. Seeing as i will just be written off as a bigot(to satisfy the excuse=searching, I will give you a female airline pilots thoughts on why there are so few female airline pilots(hint: it is because a much less percentage of women want it as a career or even a hobby, because women think differently than men in general).
Bottom line, we are just being outright lied to by the politicians, activists, media, etc, etc., again.
Meanwhile, although we have Women in Aviation as a well-known advocacy group. I don't see a Women in Construction advocacy group. There are some good paying construction jobs. Where is the outcry. It must be discrimination as the only reason why, instead of the fact that very few women want to do that job. Because they think differently.
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Where Are All the Women Airline Pilots?
It’s not a big secret to me. They’re already here.By Andrea Eldridge UPDATED JULY 26, 2022
Why aren’t more women flying the friendly skies? It might be because all the women who want to be airline pilots are already here.
In United Airlines’ announcement last year, CEO Scott Kirby said, “Over the next decade, United will train 5,000 pilots who will be guaranteed a job with United…and our plan is for half of them to be women and people of color.” Who are they trying to kid? I’m here to tell you—it’s not going to happen. The open invitation has been extended to women pilots for decades now, with little effect. The percentages of women in airline cockpits has remained flat at a very low level.
A more accurate question might be, why don’t women want to become airline pilots? And to answer that, we need to dig deeper. Let’s ask those who are here on the job what all the fuss is about.
Some United Airlines background: In the late 1980s, it was recognized that United had failed to place women and minority pilots in the cockpits of their airliners following an earlier discrimination lawsuit filed by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). In that settlement, United Airlines agreed to attract and hire more women and minority pilots. The result after nearly 40 years of efforts to boost female and minority representation in the flight deck is that United has the highest number of women pilots of any U.S. major airline—approximately 7%, an increase of 2% over historic levels, which some might argue is little to no change. The fact is, the percentage of women in the cockpit has hovered steadily between 3 and 7% percent for at least the last 30 years.
Allow me to add that as a Designated Pilot Examiner (one authorized by the FAA to evaluate and award Private, Instrument, and Commercial pilot certificates to those who have received extensive flight instruction), I can tell you that I awarded fewer than 10% of those certificates to women pilots. I suspect, as a female DPE, my number might even be higher than most, as some women certificate applicants likely seek a female examiner to fly with. What percentage of those [who earn a pilot certificate] became commercial pilots of some kind (though not necessarily for an airline)? The answer is 6%. So, this is not to say that a certain percentage of women do not want to fly. They do. They are. They just don’t want to fly for the airlines.
The problem is the lifestyle. After all, how many women want to spend 50% of their time away from home on the road eating bad food, and sleep half the nights of every month in a hotel room and not their own bedroom? Simple family activities, like picking up kids after school and taking them to pizza on their birthday, can be a scheduling nightmare.
Generally speaking, everyone appreciates a little structure built into their lives, but airline schedules don’t work that way. They are fluid, inconsistent and full of unwanted surprises. I don’t know how many female airline pilots have children—that statistic is not available. But the fact is, the demands of being an airline pilot are not conducive to traditional family life.
There are attractive elements of flying for the airlines that you won’t find in much of corporate America. If you truly want a transparent pay scale on par with your peers and entirely seniority-based, there are no glass ceilings here.
But it’s not an easy life, unless, that is, you want to wear a uniform with sensible shoes while lugging your bags up and down stairs through empty terminals and dark parking garages in the middle of the night, then this is your gig. If you believe absolute standardization, ongoing training and physical evaluations every six months (an evaluation that, if you fail, there’s the possibility of losing your job), then this is the job for you.
Me, I love it, but I recognize it’s not for everyone and particularly not for many women. The rewards centered around a lifetime spent flying for the airlines and helping support a safe environment for the traveling public are great. This environment provides me with structure and purpose enough to enjoy a high level of achievement.
But like any high-stress job, it’s all rainbows and unicorns until it’s not. That’s why we’re getting paid the big bucks. Airline pilot compensation is, as one climbs in seniority, very attractive, though it comes at a cost. At some point I realized my identity was tied into being in a peer group consisting of men in their 60s with whom I spend the majority of my waking moments at work.
Is it possible to be an airline pilot and a mom? It apparently is. I know plenty of women pilots who have raised children in picture-perfect suburban school districts. Again, I don’t know how many female airline pilots have children, but I do know that this is a tough career for any woman who entertains visions of hosting Thanksgiving dinner every year à la Norman Rockwell. If you are a proponent of Hallmark holidays or want weekends off to spend with the kids, well, you’d better run.
As for me, financial freedom, independence and world travel were my heart’s desire. These were the rewards I reaped from my career. The risks and sacrifices, however, are real. My duties as a pilot in a post-9/11 world include being officially dedicated the last line of defense between a terrorist and a tragedy. And as the pandemic unfolded, I continued to work three feet from my co-pilot, locked behind a cockpit door for up to eight hours a day, on the front lines even before it was well known how the virus was transmitted. Nevertheless, I’m proud of my contribution in the face of these events. And being true to myself has delivered personal success. My Norman Rockwell portrait depicts a happy husband, wife and dog in front of a California bungalow.
While some commend corporate leaders for pretending to open the imaginary back door to more women, my view is that qualified pilots who meet major airlines’ hiring standards will continue to be hired at much the same rate they have always been. And while we need to continue to celebrate the achievements and milestones of women pilots, their numbers are likely to increase only slightly.
However, if the dreams and subsequent priorities of the next generation of women shift, so too will their lifestyle choices. The most important thing we who are on the job and those who are hiring can do is be honest about what our work/life balance entails. Until then, we do not need United Airlines or anyone else to hold the cockpit door open for us; we’re already on board.
Andrea Eldridge is a retired airline pilot now living in Idaho. She recently won the Solas Award in the women’s category for Best Travel Writing with a story about flight training in Japan.
Last edited by punkalouver; 25th Feb 2023 at 05:55.
Totally right here.
You fit the classic example of someone who refuses to accept reality and no matter how many times reality hits you on the face, you desperately search for some excuse to justify your opinion which never changes. Seeing as i will just be written off as a bigot(to satisfy the excuse=searching, I will give you a female airline pilots thoughts on why there are so few female airline pilots(hint: it is because a much less percentage of women want it as a career or even a hobby, because women think differently than men in general).
Bottom line, we are just being outright lied to by the politicians, activists, media, etc, etc., again.
Meanwhile, although we have Women in Aviation as a well-known advocacy group. I don't see a Women in Construction advocacy group. There are some good paying construction jobs. Where is the outcry. It must be discrimination as the only reason why, instead of the fact that very few women want to do that job. Because they think differently.
You fit the classic example of someone who refuses to accept reality and no matter how many times reality hits you on the face, you desperately search for some excuse to justify your opinion which never changes. Seeing as i will just be written off as a bigot(to satisfy the excuse=searching, I will give you a female airline pilots thoughts on why there are so few female airline pilots(hint: it is because a much less percentage of women want it as a career or even a hobby, because women think differently than men in general).
Bottom line, we are just being outright lied to by the politicians, activists, media, etc, etc., again.
Meanwhile, although we have Women in Aviation as a well-known advocacy group. I don't see a Women in Construction advocacy group. There are some good paying construction jobs. Where is the outcry. It must be discrimination as the only reason why, instead of the fact that very few women want to do that job. Because they think differently.
So that erroneous clearance was somehow due to the controller being black, lesbian, a vegan, a witch, disabled, whatever. This is ridiculous. How about we talk about what happened based on known information and not get on dumb hobby horses for which there is absolutely no evidence or logical connection?
Punkalouver, you started a thread on Jet Blast to promote a white reactionary rapper. Your politics are just a plain nuisance here. If you really think that diversity hires (if that's what they are) are a flight safety risk, why not start a thread on it and back it up with some objective evidence. What you have done is spam this thread with massive blocks of text to further your bigoted rantings.
Punkalouver, you started a thread on Jet Blast to promote a white reactionary rapper. Your politics are just a plain nuisance here. If you really think that diversity hires (if that's what they are) are a flight safety risk, why not start a thread on it and back it up with some objective evidence. What you have done is spam this thread with massive blocks of text to further your bigoted rantings.
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Yet, a he asks “So just because women think differently they shouldn't be pilots?” as if that was somehow insinuated when it is obvious that it was not. It is a typical style from these sort of people to put words in your mouth and try to change the conversation away from a detailed, credible explanation and back to the false narrative that they put forth which is that it must be discrimination.
And once again the truth comes out in the end. The truth that despite the fact that no male in today’s pool of male pilot candidates is guilty of discrimination in the past yet must be put in a system that gives someone else, who never benefitted from past discrimination……’extra opportunity’.
Providing extra opportunity is guaranteed not to be based on raw talent but other factors which in the case of male female ratios, comes down to one simple item, even if they pretend there are other factors.
One might ask themselves a question on a more direct situation. Imagine you or your loved one needed some difficult, easy to screw up heart or brain surgery to survive. Where would you want the surgery done. At the facility that strictly hires the best based on a medical achievement formula or the one determined to provide extra opportunity to part of the population in a way to more equalize their roster due to what they say were discriminatory race and gender practices of the past.
Be honest.
And be a decent human being by ending discrimination by really ending discrimination by simply hiring only what are felt to be the best.
———————————————————————-
However, with two different points of view having been made on this thread, I am happy to work toward getting the thread get back to discussion of the technical events of the incident and what can be done to avoid. I will take that first step.
A simple advisory to ATC that one will have a delay on the runway prior to departure is the most obvious one from a pilots point of view. This should be done prior to crossing the hold short line. If one forgot and then suddenly remembered after crossing the hold short line, ATC should be clearly advised of the delay problem so that they can sort things out.
If this had been done, this thread would likely not exist.
Last edited by punkalouver; 25th Feb 2023 at 12:08.
Hans Brinker is a good example of the intentionally twisted and misleading arguments that we see from his type. I post a detailed article on why there are so few female airline pilots(dislike of lifestyle) which also states that pretty much all the females that have decided to become airline pilots are airline pilots(or on their way).
Yet, a he asks “So just because women think differently they shouldn't be pilots?” as if that was somehow insinuated when it is obvious that it was not. It is a typical style from these sort of people to put words in your mouth and try to change the conversation away from a detailed, credible explanation and back to the false narrative that they put forth which is that it must be discrimination.
And once again the truth comes out in the end. The truth that despite the fact that no male in today’s pool of male pilot candidates is guilty of discrimination in the past yet must be put in a system that gives someone else, who never benefitted from past discrimination……’extra opportunity’.
Providing extra opportunity is guaranteed not to be based on raw talent but other factors which in the case of male female ratios, comes down to one simple item, even if they pretend there are other factors.
One might ask themselves a question on a more direct situation. Imagine you or your loved one needed some difficult, easy to screw up heart or brain surgery to survive. Where would you want the surgery done. At the facility that strictly hires the best based on a medical achievement formula or the one determined to provide extra opportunity to part of the population in a way to more equalize their roster due to what they say were discriminatory race and gender practices of the past.
Be honest.
And be a decent human being by ending discrimination by really ending discrimination by simply hiring only what are felt to be the best.
———————————————————————-
However, with two different points of view having been made on this thread, I am happy to work toward getting the thread get back to discussion of the technical events of the incident and what can be done to avoid. I will take that first step.
A simple advisory to ATC that one will have a delay on the runway prior to departure is the most obvious one from a pilots point of view. This should be done prior to crossing the hold short line. If one forgot and then suddenly remembered after crossing the hold short line, ATC should be clearly advised of the delay problem so that they can sort things out.
If this had been done, this thread would likely not exist.
Yet, a he asks “So just because women think differently they shouldn't be pilots?” as if that was somehow insinuated when it is obvious that it was not. It is a typical style from these sort of people to put words in your mouth and try to change the conversation away from a detailed, credible explanation and back to the false narrative that they put forth which is that it must be discrimination.
And once again the truth comes out in the end. The truth that despite the fact that no male in today’s pool of male pilot candidates is guilty of discrimination in the past yet must be put in a system that gives someone else, who never benefitted from past discrimination……’extra opportunity’.
Providing extra opportunity is guaranteed not to be based on raw talent but other factors which in the case of male female ratios, comes down to one simple item, even if they pretend there are other factors.
One might ask themselves a question on a more direct situation. Imagine you or your loved one needed some difficult, easy to screw up heart or brain surgery to survive. Where would you want the surgery done. At the facility that strictly hires the best based on a medical achievement formula or the one determined to provide extra opportunity to part of the population in a way to more equalize their roster due to what they say were discriminatory race and gender practices of the past.
Be honest.
And be a decent human being by ending discrimination by really ending discrimination by simply hiring only what are felt to be the best.
———————————————————————-
However, with two different points of view having been made on this thread, I am happy to work toward getting the thread get back to discussion of the technical events of the incident and what can be done to avoid. I will take that first step.
A simple advisory to ATC that one will have a delay on the runway prior to departure is the most obvious one from a pilots point of view. This should be done prior to crossing the hold short line. If one forgot and then suddenly remembered after crossing the hold short line, ATC should be clearly advised of the delay problem so that they can sort things out.
If this had been done, this thread would likely not exist.
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I disagree, Not clearing another aircraft to Takeoff in extremely low visibility, while another Aircraft is 3 Miles away is the root cause of this problem! Secondary issue is how aware the Southwest crew was of the location of the FedEx Jet. I know Southwest was told by the Tower that FedEx was on a 3 mile final, but they may have missed that part of the Tower clearance. As far as hiring issues, there are posts on a few other forums, alluding to the fact that the Tower controller has had performance issues at another facility, pleaded the “R#@&ist” card and was relocated to Austin. Don’t shoot the messenger, but if a Tower controller cleared another jet for takeoff, at a quiet airport, while I was on 3 mile final flying a CAt III approach, I would be incredulous. It’s either an honest mistake, or the controller may be unsuited for this job.
In the end, according to several posts, an initiating error was made by the controller. There is little we can do as pilots in terms of a faulty clearance being given except to try to recognize it. This is a pilot forum and I think it is most useful to discuss what we might be able to do to compensate for an ATC error.
I suppose in this age of TCAS, one could question the clearance based on the distance of the aircraft on final which would mean actively taking note of aircraft on final. Not a bad idea in low vis conditions. And once again, always advising ATC, but especially in low vis conditions where one is less likely to be seen, of any unexpected delay on a runway.
Punkalouver,
My companies SOP’s are as we are cleared for takeoff, our takeoff flow is, confirm and verbalize the proper runway and heading, all lights on, Weather /Terrain radar on, and finally, Clear the runway, confirm no conflicting traffic on final and confirm TCAS on. I have to think, most airlines and aircraft have a similar checklist.
My companies SOP’s are as we are cleared for takeoff, our takeoff flow is, confirm and verbalize the proper runway and heading, all lights on, Weather /Terrain radar on, and finally, Clear the runway, confirm no conflicting traffic on final and confirm TCAS on. I have to think, most airlines and aircraft have a similar checklist.
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Punkalouver,
My companies SOP’s are as we are cleared for takeoff, our takeoff flow is, confirm and verbalize the proper runway and heading, all lights on, Weather /Terrain radar on, and finally, Clear the runway, confirm no conflicting traffic on final and confirm TCAS on. I have to think, most airlines and aircraft have a similar checklist.
My companies SOP’s are as we are cleared for takeoff, our takeoff flow is, confirm and verbalize the proper runway and heading, all lights on, Weather /Terrain radar on, and finally, Clear the runway, confirm no conflicting traffic on final and confirm TCAS on. I have to think, most airlines and aircraft have a similar checklist.
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Whow, what lots of very emotional comments here , are you sure you are really all white males ? 
Disagree completely wiith some recent comments made but on thing I would agree with punkalouver , yes time to close this .. I will happily contribute to another thread on equity and gender equality if one wants to open one. But looks like I will not convince you and based on what I read so far looks like you're unlikely to convince me .
So back to Austin .
Do you really believe , as I see some of you suggesting , that it was 100% the fault of the controller, and that the case is clear and there is nothing more to learn? The controller was : a) substandard, b) black and had played the race card to get transferred to Austin, Texas ( of all places !) and c) had only been recruited and allowed to continue to work because of a minority preferred quota system ? Case closed , we continue as before no need to cage anything . .
Most of the points against the controller are apparently coming from the point65 web site , which is a site made for FAA employees to vent their frustration at the FAA. The language (and the grammar) used by some posters show clearly some education deficiencies .
Now to put back the discussion on the technicalities based on what we know from the FR24 and the partial audio recordings of the R/T : which I can resume :
The controller cleared a SW 737 to line up and take off with a 767 3 NM out, indicating to teh SW traffic was 3 NM but without mentioning the word “ expedite” . Errors? Oh yes .
But the SW did acknowledged the clearance , was aware of the 3NM distance, (he replied “ copied the traffic” ) yet took 45-50 seconds ( eaxacttimig to be checked) ) before starting the take off roll . No problem there ?
The Fedex did recognize the issue, asked the controller if he was still clear to land , but in fact meaning : is the runway clear ?”
The controller asked the SW if it had started his roll , instead of asking , are you airborne yet ?
SW replied ‘rolling now ” but that did not clarify anything as it could be just started or at close to Vr.. The controller did not verify .
The controller should have initiated a go around to the Fedex. . Did not .
The FedEx then decided to initiate the go around, used his own abbreviation for it and took the initiative to ask the SW to abort without identifying himself, which led the controller to believe the transmission was coming from the SW, and cleared the SW to take the first exit right when able, to which the SW replied “ negative” but not indicating he was airborne.by then.
The FedEx performed a go around right on top of the 737 without side stepping causing the 2 aircraft to come within 100-150ft vertically .( actual miss distance still to be verified)
The controller did not intervene to try to separate the 2 aircraft above the runway. But was he aware of the situation ? No visual, no ground radar.
No if you still think the controller is the only one that f..ked up here and that the procedures, lack of standard phraseology, your “freedom” etc…you are going to wake up with a big hangover very soon.
For me , looking at this from a purely ATC incident investigation : the first question I will ask is : was the controller working alone ? if yes who was supervising him ? the second was the airport officially declared under LVP , (or SMGCS Plan as you call it ) ? In other words was the SW and the Controller aware ? the fedex seems to have been under that impression as he asked for CAT III APP.
Then is lining up at 3 Nm normal in AUS, ( in Europe some airports are doing it until 2,5 with “expedite” in good Wx conditions ) and mostly why is all this non-standard phraseology used ? local Austin or general US problem ?
So yes, a lot to learn for me from this incident. Putting the whole blame on the controller is the easy way out and the excuse not to change anything. In fact this is exactly how we classified things 30 years ago when everything was “ pilot error” to avoid touching the system .
Disagree completely wiith some recent comments made but on thing I would agree with punkalouver , yes time to close this .. I will happily contribute to another thread on equity and gender equality if one wants to open one. But looks like I will not convince you and based on what I read so far looks like you're unlikely to convince me .
So back to Austin .
Do you really believe , as I see some of you suggesting , that it was 100% the fault of the controller, and that the case is clear and there is nothing more to learn? The controller was : a) substandard, b) black and had played the race card to get transferred to Austin, Texas ( of all places !) and c) had only been recruited and allowed to continue to work because of a minority preferred quota system ? Case closed , we continue as before no need to cage anything . .
Most of the points against the controller are apparently coming from the point65 web site , which is a site made for FAA employees to vent their frustration at the FAA. The language (and the grammar) used by some posters show clearly some education deficiencies .
Now to put back the discussion on the technicalities based on what we know from the FR24 and the partial audio recordings of the R/T : which I can resume :
The controller cleared a SW 737 to line up and take off with a 767 3 NM out, indicating to teh SW traffic was 3 NM but without mentioning the word “ expedite” . Errors? Oh yes .
But the SW did acknowledged the clearance , was aware of the 3NM distance, (he replied “ copied the traffic” ) yet took 45-50 seconds ( eaxacttimig to be checked) ) before starting the take off roll . No problem there ?
The Fedex did recognize the issue, asked the controller if he was still clear to land , but in fact meaning : is the runway clear ?”
The controller asked the SW if it had started his roll , instead of asking , are you airborne yet ?
SW replied ‘rolling now ” but that did not clarify anything as it could be just started or at close to Vr.. The controller did not verify .
The controller should have initiated a go around to the Fedex. . Did not .
The FedEx then decided to initiate the go around, used his own abbreviation for it and took the initiative to ask the SW to abort without identifying himself, which led the controller to believe the transmission was coming from the SW, and cleared the SW to take the first exit right when able, to which the SW replied “ negative” but not indicating he was airborne.by then.
The FedEx performed a go around right on top of the 737 without side stepping causing the 2 aircraft to come within 100-150ft vertically .( actual miss distance still to be verified)
The controller did not intervene to try to separate the 2 aircraft above the runway. But was he aware of the situation ? No visual, no ground radar.
No if you still think the controller is the only one that f..ked up here and that the procedures, lack of standard phraseology, your “freedom” etc…you are going to wake up with a big hangover very soon.
For me , looking at this from a purely ATC incident investigation : the first question I will ask is : was the controller working alone ? if yes who was supervising him ? the second was the airport officially declared under LVP , (or SMGCS Plan as you call it ) ? In other words was the SW and the Controller aware ? the fedex seems to have been under that impression as he asked for CAT III APP.
Then is lining up at 3 Nm normal in AUS, ( in Europe some airports are doing it until 2,5 with “expedite” in good Wx conditions ) and mostly why is all this non-standard phraseology used ? local Austin or general US problem ?
So yes, a lot to learn for me from this incident. Putting the whole blame on the controller is the easy way out and the excuse not to change anything. In fact this is exactly how we classified things 30 years ago when everything was “ pilot error” to avoid touching the system .
Last edited by ATC Watcher; 25th Feb 2023 at 16:12. Reason: typos
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What puzzle me here is that no one reacts to this, the controller surely knows this, (basic LVO training ) but so are the SW and the Fedex, crews yet everyone seems happy with this, also after the event. . . Hence my earlier questions : is this standard in KAUS or gernerally in the US to disregard old basic rules in the name of expedition . ( as they do with LAHSO for instance).
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Whow, what lots of very emotional comments here , are you sure you are really all white males ?
Disagree completely wiith some recent comments made but on thing I would agree with punkalouver , yes time to close this .. I will happily contribute to another thread on equity and gender equality if one wants to open one. But looks like I will not convince you and based on what I read so far looks like you're unlikely to convince me .
So back to Austin .
Do you really believe , as I see some of you suggesting , that it was 100% the fault of the controller, and that the case is clear and there is nothing more to learn? The controller was : a) substandard, b) black and had played the race card to get transferred to Austin, Texas (of all places !) and c) had only been recruited and allowed to continue to work because of a minority preferred quota system? Case closed, we continue as before no need to cage anything . .
.
Disagree completely wiith some recent comments made but on thing I would agree with punkalouver , yes time to close this .. I will happily contribute to another thread on equity and gender equality if one wants to open one. But looks like I will not convince you and based on what I read so far looks like you're unlikely to convince me .
So back to Austin .
Do you really believe , as I see some of you suggesting , that it was 100% the fault of the controller, and that the case is clear and there is nothing more to learn? The controller was : a) substandard, b) black and had played the race card to get transferred to Austin, Texas (of all places !) and c) had only been recruited and allowed to continue to work because of a minority preferred quota system? Case closed, we continue as before no need to cage anything . .
.
So, hopefully to show you how demented the system has become, I will post a government ad in my country for an accident investigator. "Preference may be given to applicants who are members of one or more of the following groups: women, Indigenous peoples, persons with disabilities, and members of a visible minority group."
b) black and had played the race card to get transferred to Austin, Texas (of all places !)
Most of the points against the controller are apparently coming from the point65 web site , which is a site made for FAA employees to vent their frustration at the FAA. The language (and the grammar) used by some posters show clearly some education deficiencies .
Most of the points against the controller are apparently coming from the point65 web site , which is a site made for FAA employees to vent their frustration at the FAA. The language (and the grammar) used by some posters show clearly some education deficiencies .
Now maybe we can move on.
I've been following this thread with interest. I am a 767 freight pilot, so either competitor to Chieftp or maybe on the same team and have been operating to USA since 2009 as well as EU.
I can't see what the actual trigger for the 767 Go Around was - visual sighting of the SW with the clever visual enhancement thingy? SA built up from the RT? Visual acquisition? If the 767 bottomed out at 75', then I guess the GA would have been initiated at about 120' which is about 1/3 mile which is about what the stated RVR was, so maybe the latter?
I don't think the side step thing is as simple as people think - would the SW be going exactly down the CL? If not then a side step could make things worse. A 767 GA is really dynamic and the sequencing is fairly hard wired - 'GA switches, GA F20, +ve rate gear up, 400' Lnav/Hdg Sel'. If you can't actually see the other ac its quite hard to make decisions on lateral avoidance - TCAS will help build SA at this point but not much else.
I've got used to the USA thing of being cleared to land with ac ahead and having seen ATC command GAs because the rwy turns out not to be clear am more sanguine than I used to be, but if it's Lo Vis and I'm cleared to land I have to believe that the rwy is mine.
Too much cheese, too many holes.
Rgds to all
I can't see what the actual trigger for the 767 Go Around was - visual sighting of the SW with the clever visual enhancement thingy? SA built up from the RT? Visual acquisition? If the 767 bottomed out at 75', then I guess the GA would have been initiated at about 120' which is about 1/3 mile which is about what the stated RVR was, so maybe the latter?
I don't think the side step thing is as simple as people think - would the SW be going exactly down the CL? If not then a side step could make things worse. A 767 GA is really dynamic and the sequencing is fairly hard wired - 'GA switches, GA F20, +ve rate gear up, 400' Lnav/Hdg Sel'. If you can't actually see the other ac its quite hard to make decisions on lateral avoidance - TCAS will help build SA at this point but not much else.
I've got used to the USA thing of being cleared to land with ac ahead and having seen ATC command GAs because the rwy turns out not to be clear am more sanguine than I used to be, but if it's Lo Vis and I'm cleared to land I have to believe that the rwy is mine.
Too much cheese, too many holes.
Rgds to all
Last edited by deltahotel; 26th Feb 2023 at 16:32.
https://www.gvca.org/en/who-we-are/w...tion-winc.aspx.
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https://www.gvca.org/en/who-we-are/w...tion-winc.aspx.
I took a look at in a bit of detail. Interesting membership…..
”Our membership base consists of a diverse group of women who work as:
- Architects and engineers
- Owners and senior executives
- Estimators
- General or specialty contractors
- Human resource experts
- Insurance agents
- Lawyers
- Project managers
- Sales, marketing, and social media specialists
- Tradeswomen”
Feel free to find a Women in Trash Collection or Sanitation Services as they work to end the discrimination there.
As was said in the article I posted by a frontline airline pilot. Virtually all the women who want to be airline pilots are airline pilots. But I would welcome a society that forces some equalization for the jobs with sanitation services, construction jobs, a sewer workers reserved for women at random with that being the only option. After all, it must be discrimination to explain the discrepancies.
I‘m sure the usual crowd would have told us a little over a year ago that there are not enough female pilots as a ratio in every European country. I wonder what the ratio of male to female soldiers dying in Ukraine is. Maybe a little Women in Trenches advocacy is required. The real discrimination is against men. Women just want preferential access to glory jobs. Funny how bringing to light that harsh reality is considered a strange way of looking at the world, yet don’t be surprised if it becomes hate speech one day. After, Dr.Seuss books along with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory are.
———————————————————————-
Like I said, let’s stay on the technical detail on the incident. The FedEx could have offset by turning 30 degrees from runway track.
Last edited by punkalouver; 27th Feb 2023 at 11:42.
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I can't see what the actual trigger for the 767 Go Around was - visual sighting of the SW with the clever visual enhancement thingy? SA built up from the RT? Visual acquisition? If the 767 bottomed out at 75', then I guess the GA would have been initiated at about 120' which is about 1/3 mile which is about what the stated RVR was, so maybe the latter?
.
.
I don't think the side step thing is as simple as people think - would the SW be going exactly down the CL? If not then a side step could make things worse. A 767 GA is really dynamic and the sequencing is fairly hard wired - 'GA switches, GA F20, +ve rate gear up, 400' Lnav/Hdg Sel'. If you can't actually see the other ac its quite hard to make decisions on lateral avoidance - TCAS will help build SA at this point but not much else.
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I posted a question about a week or so ago, and that was whether "an expedited departure " is even a consideration in the very low vis conditions that were reported. There weren't many direct replies although there were some who agreed that it would be unusual to attempt a rolling takeoff in those conditions. In other words, should a more aware controller and a more situationally aware SW crew both understood that an expedited takeoff in those conditions was unlikely to occur?
Did SW have to clear its engines prior to takeoff or not? I haven't seen any definite answer to that although I may have missed it.
Did SW have to clear its engines prior to takeoff or not? I haven't seen any definite answer to that although I may have missed it.
Only half a speed-brake
Subjective viewpoint:
+ The controller did not even ask for an expedited departure.
+ Even if a rolling_and_expeditious takeoff had been executed, the normally-expected LoViz separation standards could not be re-established. The breach of reasonable spacing was already done with the line-up instruction.
Telling a crew to line up and then advising there's traffic closing is sloppy work. What about (instead): "There is 767 approaching traffic at 3 NM. Are you ready for an immediate departure?" Despite that still being a completely unacceptable plan to propose, that may have helped the SW crew to decide well and stay clear of the active.
Pilots are drummed to understand the difference between ATS and ATC, and the different levels of service and responsibilities that are eventually taking place. If you think of it, from what has been reasonably established to be factual, there was no _controlling_ taking place at all.
+ The controller did not even ask for an expedited departure.
+ Even if a rolling_and_expeditious takeoff had been executed, the normally-expected LoViz separation standards could not be re-established. The breach of reasonable spacing was already done with the line-up instruction.
Telling a crew to line up and then advising there's traffic closing is sloppy work. What about (instead): "There is 767 approaching traffic at 3 NM. Are you ready for an immediate departure?" Despite that still being a completely unacceptable plan to propose, that may have helped the SW crew to decide well and stay clear of the active.
Pilots are drummed to understand the difference between ATS and ATC, and the different levels of service and responsibilities that are eventually taking place. If you think of it, from what has been reasonably established to be factual, there was no _controlling_ taking place at all.