NTSB to probe Fedex/Southwest close encounter at Austin
Feel sorry for those MET guys, been treated like ****
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just finished the interviews parts.
Il start with the MET guy as we are re discussing it, Appalling what those guys have to go though . “ we’re just babysitting a computer” , stuck in an old smoking room with no windows, no internet access, had to buy on Amazon broken equipment themselves , told by FAA no to bother with 17 degr temp discrepancies,: " just read the machine of you get fired “ . no contact with ATC , took they access badges away and to come up the TWR need to call on an intercom : " that is broken anyway". The whole subcontracting process to employ those guys is crazy too.
The ATC staff interviews are revealing a totally broken safety and training culture. The “suitcases simulator “part is revealing, " a piece of junk" as one said. No one seems to know what SMGCS is same with CAT III . and those were experienced controllers with many years’ experiences. But it is the chronic lack of staff that is at the root of the problem, 6 days weeks for years, no time to properly train or refresh. the procedure to train for new airspace, one hour after a shift ( described page 151 ) is appalling .
Having to rely on FR24 to taxi aircraft is incredible in such a large airport in the US in 2023. I’ve seen this done in Haiti and in some poor African countries, but in the US?
The SW pilots interview is comparatively much shorter and they got very easy questions compared to the controllers. 2 different treatments here. Not nice. . They did not pursue why did both crews consider lining up with an aircraft on 3 miles final in low visibility conditions “normal” . Then “we never stopped “ said the captain , but the F/O said they put the brakes on to run to 70% so they did stop and waited. ,and when the controller asked if they were rolling, a minute after the T/O clearance , the F/O said they were only 3 to 5 seconds in the roll. . A good time stamp is missing in there. Also pity no CRM questions were asked, was the Capt using the HUD or not, who said what , different reactions to the FedEx calls, discrepancies between the 2 there. The F/O also admitted he did not know what SMGCS meant on the day, so basic training issues on every front not only ATC.
But not here to blame individuals, as we see it is a system that is broken .To fix it will take money ,people and take lots of time to restore it. I mean years. . Only way to prevent an accident from coming is reducing traffic levels during that transition period. But is this feasible politically ? Moving traffic above anything else at a reduced cost seems to be the drive nowadays , not safety ..
Il start with the MET guy as we are re discussing it, Appalling what those guys have to go though . “ we’re just babysitting a computer” , stuck in an old smoking room with no windows, no internet access, had to buy on Amazon broken equipment themselves , told by FAA no to bother with 17 degr temp discrepancies,: " just read the machine of you get fired “ . no contact with ATC , took they access badges away and to come up the TWR need to call on an intercom : " that is broken anyway". The whole subcontracting process to employ those guys is crazy too.
The ATC staff interviews are revealing a totally broken safety and training culture. The “suitcases simulator “part is revealing, " a piece of junk" as one said. No one seems to know what SMGCS is same with CAT III . and those were experienced controllers with many years’ experiences. But it is the chronic lack of staff that is at the root of the problem, 6 days weeks for years, no time to properly train or refresh. the procedure to train for new airspace, one hour after a shift ( described page 151 ) is appalling .
Having to rely on FR24 to taxi aircraft is incredible in such a large airport in the US in 2023. I’ve seen this done in Haiti and in some poor African countries, but in the US?
The SW pilots interview is comparatively much shorter and they got very easy questions compared to the controllers. 2 different treatments here. Not nice. . They did not pursue why did both crews consider lining up with an aircraft on 3 miles final in low visibility conditions “normal” . Then “we never stopped “ said the captain , but the F/O said they put the brakes on to run to 70% so they did stop and waited. ,and when the controller asked if they were rolling, a minute after the T/O clearance , the F/O said they were only 3 to 5 seconds in the roll. . A good time stamp is missing in there. Also pity no CRM questions were asked, was the Capt using the HUD or not, who said what , different reactions to the FedEx calls, discrepancies between the 2 there. The F/O also admitted he did not know what SMGCS meant on the day, so basic training issues on every front not only ATC.
But not here to blame individuals, as we see it is a system that is broken .To fix it will take money ,people and take lots of time to restore it. I mean years. . Only way to prevent an accident from coming is reducing traffic levels during that transition period. But is this feasible politically ? Moving traffic above anything else at a reduced cost seems to be the drive nowadays , not safety ..
I’ve admittedly not read the pilot interviews, my impression from the initial reports and the ATC tapes is the FedEx pilot deserves a medal.
One can criticize NYT for their content, but NTSB... and proof-reading before publishing: "confirm your roll-in" (confirm you're rolling) / questioning about the HUD IR capabilities "It has EFIS" (It has EFVS) / "it's not a sea-to-land approach" 
/ etc.
No medals me thinks, it was an experienced and professional FedEx crew that saved the day alright. But it was luck, and only luck that Met conditions allowed the F/O (and only the F/O) right at the very last moment to catch a glimpse of "a silhouette of the left wing". Fog layer any thicker or denser (as it was an hour later) and FedEx would have touched down. And luck, that the "SouthWest abort!" call by FedEx, was heard only by the SWA F/O, that their speed was well above 80, etc. so they continued. SWA slamming the brakes might well have turned this into a disaster. And that call also confused the TWR, who for a moment thought SWA was aborting, and thus gave the "roger, turn right when able". And in turn SWA acted upon it once airborne, while that was not intended by ATC. Additionally, SWA crew shallowing the climb-out profile, was also certainly improving separation.
Indeed, and neither any questions on why SWA in general are considered by ATC as always the fastest guys in town, "they churn and burn". And "United, no", "American, absolutely not" and "Delta, no way in hell". So, what's wrong with the big three? Or is SWA constantly pushing the (safety) limits? No questions asked so far, it seems.
One thing the timestamped R/T transcripts learned us, is that this video simulation was perfectly in sync with the actual R/T.
/ etc.My confidence is restored. I have re-examined the data and believe the second video is +/- one second in audio timing that I received in an anonymous tip, and I believe that the aircraft are correctly positioned with respect to each other (within the limits discussed in the video description). Here are the audio times I am using:
12:38:48 southwest calls short of 18L
12:38:59 tower issues t/o clearance
12:39:14 southwest reads back t/o clearance
12:39:29 FedEx checks landing clearance
12:39:34 tower confirms landing clearance
12:39:40 FedEx Roger
12:40:10 tower checks if Southwest is on the roll
12:40:13 southwest on the roll
12:40:32 southwest abort
12:40:35 FedEx on the go
The flightradar24 granular data shows the roll starting at 2023-02-04 12:40:15Z. I will note that in my past experience, flightradar24 data timestamps are not always accurate (it depends on how well the time on the specific collector is synched).
12:38:48 southwest calls short of 18L
12:38:59 tower issues t/o clearance
12:39:14 southwest reads back t/o clearance
12:39:29 FedEx checks landing clearance
12:39:34 tower confirms landing clearance
12:39:40 FedEx Roger
12:40:10 tower checks if Southwest is on the roll
12:40:13 southwest on the roll
12:40:32 southwest abort
12:40:35 FedEx on the go
The flightradar24 granular data shows the roll starting at 2023-02-04 12:40:15Z. I will note that in my past experience, flightradar24 data timestamps are not always accurate (it depends on how well the time on the specific collector is synched).
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the time stamp from the R/T , when the take off clearance is given ( roughly 39.00 ) the FedEx is given as 3 miles out , so at 140 Kts you're doing 2,3 NM per min ,, anyone in this business knows that if you sit there and take one minute to release the brakes, the guy on finals is going to be too close. , The FedEx goes around at time 40:30 so roughly one and half minute later , so at 140 Kts it was exactly 3NM out when this started and 1,5 minute later it was right above the SWA when going around. Simple math.
Someone deserving a medal ? well the Fedex F/O happened to spot the SW and did call the go around. . Would the Capt see it later ,through his HUD ?.Doubtful , he said he did not see anything despite the EFVS. . So yes the F/O ( which the NTSB guy keeps calling "Roger" . like in the "Airplane" movie ) saved the day and everyone on board that SW should be thankful to him.
One point from the FedEx Capt interview : he said : " on 3-mile final. my initial response was an expletive like ; "What's he doing?" but he did not challenge it, and was apparently comfortable with landing with another one " further down the runway "
Regarding CAT III , the FedEx Capt said : " You know, I do assume that he's [the controller] on top of it, as well, but we did have some concerns from, you know, the critical area, you know, and not knowing what their rules are and I didn't know what the tower's rules were"
Too many people were assuming things tat day
Someone deserving a medal ? well the Fedex F/O happened to spot the SW and did call the go around. . Would the Capt see it later ,through his HUD ?.Doubtful , he said he did not see anything despite the EFVS. . So yes the F/O ( which the NTSB guy keeps calling "Roger" . like in the "Airplane" movie ) saved the day and everyone on board that SW should be thankful to him.
One point from the FedEx Capt interview : he said : " on 3-mile final. my initial response was an expletive like ; "What's he doing?" but he did not challenge it, and was apparently comfortable with landing with another one " further down the runway "
Regarding CAT III , the FedEx Capt said : " You know, I do assume that he's [the controller] on top of it, as well, but we did have some concerns from, you know, the critical area, you know, and not knowing what their rules are and I didn't know what the tower's rules were"
Too many people were assuming things tat day
The FAA doesn’t seem to have funding to hire more controllers but the IRS is hiring 80,000 new agents, and we have plenty of cash to house and feed millions of illegals entering the country. Priorities are askew.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
7 Posts
A lot of gender and race based preferences these days to artificially change ratios. We read about it all the time. Based on an ATR crash and recent near collision disasters(JFK, HNL, AUS ), it would seem that the serious incidents may be skewed because of it, and only a mere 45 days into the year. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.
The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.
Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.
The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.
Rob Schneider tells United Airlines CEO he won't fly airline because it prioritizes ‘diversity’ over 'safety' | Fox News
"As evidenced by the near aviation catastrophe of UA Boeing 777 flight 1722 from Maui to San Francisco Dec 18th 2023, where your diverse but incompetent flight crew didn’t know which flaps were causing its near disastrous dissent, coming within 750 feet of killing every one aboard your United Airline."
A United Airlines spokesman told FOX Business shortly after the incident that an investigation revealed the pilots involved needed "additional training" to prevent such situations.
