NTSB to probe Fedex/Southwest close encounter at Austin
Pegase Driver
Wow, some questions remain but lots of very good explanations I am learning something valuable here. Thanks FlightDetent, and Chiefttp
The box analogy is good. I was stuck in my boxes: LVP and SMGCS , which are for me 2 different boxes ( I am not a woman) one a procedure the other a tool . You can have one without the other ,, in Europe that is . Because after your explanations and having checking what a "SMGCS Plan " ( the LAX one is available on line) I understand that what you call SMGCS plan is in fact roughly our European LVPs.
For us in Europe SMGCS , and A-SMGCS are tools to guide aircraft taxying and preventing runway incursions, and in the A-SMGCS ( A for advanced) even helps ATC issuing clearances :
Conformance Monitoring Alerts for Controllers (CMAC), which provides controllers with appropriate alerts when the A-SMGCS detects the non-conformance to procedures or clearances for traffic on runways, taxiways and on the apron area.
Which would indicate that KAUS does not seem to have this kind of tool .
Reading the LAX Plan it I see that in the US SMGS operation is conditional to low visibility, which is not in Europe, But yes, it looks like same box with a different name. Learned something .
Another different labelling is the famous ILS protection area we were discussing , called in ICAO and in Europe : ILS Critical and sensitive areas that need to be protected , therefore often also referred as protection areas, but in the US are called POFZ , Precision Obstacle Free zone , again same box, different label.
Finally a couple of comments
@ Chiefttp :
Non, I would argue that no incident would happen under LVP as there would have been many barriers up preventing it : First RYR ( not flying in LHR but OK as an example ) would almost certainly not have accepted the clearance,, You can say what you want about RYR abuses of staff , but their safety procedures are top of the range. Secondly , BAW on finals would have most likely reacted immediately ,then the A-SMGCS inside the tower would have flagged this as unsafe, and/or his supervsior would have intervened as unlike what seems to have been the case in KAUS the controller would not have been alone , and finally in the UK they not really "blame" anymore as Alphaman said already . If the guy did issue this clearance , there should have been a reason , and focus would be on the reason ,being training , lack of refreshers, lack profeciency , trouble at home , etc.. But UK is well ahead in this . If you would have used other airlines and , let's say Tirana airport in Albania , or Vnukovo in Russia for instance, the incident would have occurred and the controller would be in jail already.
They forgot to apply Ed Wiener golden rule :nr 29 : (They always do ) : Whenever you solve a problem you usually create a new one. You can only hope that the one you created is less critical than the one you eliminated.
The box analogy is good. I was stuck in my boxes: LVP and SMGCS , which are for me 2 different boxes ( I am not a woman) one a procedure the other a tool . You can have one without the other ,, in Europe that is . Because after your explanations and having checking what a "SMGCS Plan " ( the LAX one is available on line) I understand that what you call SMGCS plan is in fact roughly our European LVPs.
For us in Europe SMGCS , and A-SMGCS are tools to guide aircraft taxying and preventing runway incursions, and in the A-SMGCS ( A for advanced) even helps ATC issuing clearances :
Conformance Monitoring Alerts for Controllers (CMAC), which provides controllers with appropriate alerts when the A-SMGCS detects the non-conformance to procedures or clearances for traffic on runways, taxiways and on the apron area.
Reading the LAX Plan it I see that in the US SMGS operation is conditional to low visibility, which is not in Europe, But yes, it looks like same box with a different name. Learned something .
Another different labelling is the famous ILS protection area we were discussing , called in ICAO and in Europe : ILS Critical and sensitive areas that need to be protected , therefore often also referred as protection areas, but in the US are called POFZ , Precision Obstacle Free zone , again same box, different label.
Finally a couple of comments
@ Chiefttp :
If this accident occurred at LHR, and LVP was announced, and the Tower controller cleared a RyanAir 737 in front of a BA787 on 3 mile final, would you all be decrying a change of procedures is needed, or blame the Tower Controller?
After the accident, the Air Force made wholesale revisions to our formation air refueling procedures which made them more complex and less safe! An overreaction if there ever was one
They forgot to apply Ed Wiener golden rule :nr 29 : (They always do ) : Whenever you solve a problem you usually create a new one. You can only hope that the one you created is less critical than the one you eliminated.
Last edited by ATC Watcher; 20th Feb 2023 at 18:19.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,813
Received 141 Likes
on
65 Posts
All very enlightening, for which I thank the learned members of this Forum. As a fairly active SLF, this is all good to know!
For this geriatric Mil controller ILS existed, but none of the Cat II/III constraints existed. And ILS approaches (if the ac was so equipped) were fairly infrequent. My ‘bad weather world’ was mainly GCA down to pilot’s minimums when we would cease the ‘patter’ (and occasionally beyond when a fighter pilot said ‘keep talking’). Landing clearance from Tower was at 3 miles, which meant the runway is ‘yours’, but might be deferred to 2 miles if the runway was just about to clear. At 2 miles … no clearance, go around. Easier with fast jets (Lightning, Hunter, Mirage) until fuel remaining reared its head, which for us meant definitely telling Tower at 6 miles that one was inbound to use the only runway. That in turn meant Tower would NOT start pushing metal onto the active!
That’s why I find this incident so utterly unforgivable.
For this geriatric Mil controller ILS existed, but none of the Cat II/III constraints existed. And ILS approaches (if the ac was so equipped) were fairly infrequent. My ‘bad weather world’ was mainly GCA down to pilot’s minimums when we would cease the ‘patter’ (and occasionally beyond when a fighter pilot said ‘keep talking’). Landing clearance from Tower was at 3 miles, which meant the runway is ‘yours’, but might be deferred to 2 miles if the runway was just about to clear. At 2 miles … no clearance, go around. Easier with fast jets (Lightning, Hunter, Mirage) until fuel remaining reared its head, which for us meant definitely telling Tower at 6 miles that one was inbound to use the only runway. That in turn meant Tower would NOT start pushing metal onto the active!
That’s why I find this incident so utterly unforgivable.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Starring at an Airfield Near you
Posts: 371
Received 15 Likes
on
7 Posts
My career is along similar lines to MPN11's but had a slightly more 'civvie' slant due to posting progression that continued after leaving the Service when I joined the Flight Inspection community; I became, therefore, very familiar with ILS procedures, categories, protection requirements, allied LVPs and other foibles of that kit. Although always fiercely protective of my profession against unwarranted and uninformed criticism I cannot help, in this case, to opine: "What the hell was the Twr Controller thinking?". They appear to have obviated standard 'safety locks' and common sense procedures the implementation of which are their raison d'etre! Nonetheless, as has already been mentioned, the USA's policy of issuing landing clearances to multiple aircraft before the runway is actually 'sanitised' (for want of a better word) for a specific movement is clearly going to end in tears if not addressed sooner rather than later; Dobbin is still in his stable but the door is 'swinging in the wind!'
DownwindMaddland,
For all the speculation and opinions voiced on this thread, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s going to boil down to the Tower Controllers incredulous decision to clear SW in front of the FedEx jet. There isn’t anything broke with the US system, except , perhaps, the current trend of “feel good/woke” hiring practices that don’t translate very well in Aviation. What’s the old saying,
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
For all the speculation and opinions voiced on this thread, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s going to boil down to the Tower Controllers incredulous decision to clear SW in front of the FedEx jet. There isn’t anything broke with the US system, except , perhaps, the current trend of “feel good/woke” hiring practices that don’t translate very well in Aviation. What’s the old saying,
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
t’s going to boil down to the Tower Controllers incredulous decision to clear SW in front of the FedEx jet. There isn’t anything broke with the US system, except…..
DownwindMaddland,
For all the speculation and opinions voiced on this thread, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s going to boil down to the Tower Controllers incredulous decision to clear SW in front of the FedEx jet. There isn’t anything broke with the US system, except , perhaps, the current trend of “feel good/woke” hiring practices that don’t translate very well in Aviation. What’s the old saying,
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
For all the speculation and opinions voiced on this thread, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s going to boil down to the Tower Controllers incredulous decision to clear SW in front of the FedEx jet. There isn’t anything broke with the US system, except , perhaps, the current trend of “feel good/woke” hiring practices that don’t translate very well in Aviation. What’s the old saying,
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Whilst there is no question that the tower controller’s actions are difficult to understand, I hope that the investigation will consider how ‘the system’ allowed these actions to happen and whether the actions taken by others in response to such situations could be improved in some way. I tend to feel that we (or perhaps anyone at this point) don’t have enough information to judge whether the system is ok. And if the solution you have in mind is to remove that particular controller and carry on as normal, I fear that you may have missedsome of the good things that have changed in the last 30 years or so.
"The system" changes are neither current nor were they "allowed" to happen. The case is now 10 years old, and nowhere close to resolution. It began, at the very top of the US political landscape when the executive admin decided to step into the recruitment, evaluation and hiring of ATC personnel. That admin had a look at various depts around the US infrastructure, and noted that this one area of consideration was overly, and almost exclusively populated by one ethnic makeup. The truth is, that ATC was highly skewed in its lack of diversity, and the admin really did not like that. So - it took steps to 'fix' that by jettisoning the long-held method in place to recruit, train, evaluate, and ultimately hire the best of the best using a tried and true merit based 'system'. About the merit based original 'system'. No one was excluded, as it was against the law, and has been against the law to exclude someone from the fed employment ranks for literally decades. Anyone, and everyone who could qualify, notwithstanding their heritage, ethnic background, religion, creed, or origin were accepted. It was open to everyone. And, for many decades the best qualified were advanced to the top of the ziggurat and became a US Air Traffic Controller.
Nine of the 10 busiest airports in the world are in the US. The most congested air traffic in the world is consistently in the N American continent, so being a real life FAA qual ATC carried a lot of weight. In fact, in 1983, they carried so much weight, that they thought it would be a good idea to break their union contract and strike for wage and benefits Sadly, they did that at a time when there was a man in the WH who followed the law, and contract, and he fired the lot of them. We made it through. Fast Forward back to 2013, and almost overnight the train of merit based candidates in process for training, and evaluation were summarily rejected, based on their qualifications on multiple merit based tests and simulations. In its place, the merit based examination process took a far back seat over a new 'biographical qualification questionnaire' procedure. Many of the candidates in the middle of the training and evaluation process were dismissed, removed, and advised to 'seek employment elsewhere' as they did not fit the new 'biographical qualification' points, which had zero to do with merit, ability, and understanding of the complex process of moving aluminum tubes from LAX to LGW, and so on and so forth.
The ATC pipeline changed, and it changed dramatically No longer were the best qualified considered the best. Most of those in early stage, and middle stage progress for the few opening in ATC were given their pink slips and in their place came the New Generation. I will leave it to the kind reader to figure out those parameters that were best scored in the new biographical questionnaire, and who ultimately were taken into the training route in place of those once considered, but now bad meritocracy system. And, so it began. From 2013, a steady stream of biographically qualified people have been working toward, and now working in the US ATC system and are moving the alum tubes around the globe. Was this legal? Why no, it was not. The US system of justice specifically and directly opposes and rejects this kind of discrimination, however - the administration was so careful on their biographical questionnaire to maybe, possibly have skirted that type of discrimination. Maybe...
Which brings us to the landmark case - Brigida v. Chao. Who is Brigida, and who is Chao? Well, Brigida is a now-removed and disqualified candidate for an ATC position. And Chao refers to Elaine Chao, who was the FAA admin in charge of expressing the wishes of the 2013 administrations move toward a more 'diverse' cultural method to selecting new traffic controllers in the busiest and most demanding operations segment of the world. It was Brigida v. FAA, but due to some kind of legal wrangling, the case had to be directed against an individual in the admin rather than a department. Because - departments don't make operational selection decisions, and suing the Prez of the US is considered bad form. Chao was the one who did the implementation of that admins wishes, and she carried out the process as directed from above.
Where are we now and how does it relate to this situation? Well, as with all litigation, this one takes years(now a decade) and there are players on both sides which muddy the waters. There have been other cases that have combined with this case, and it has now been granted something called 'class action' status, on behalf of more than 2500 candidates who were rejected, and removed in favor of those other candidate who scored so well on the biographic quiz. The training facility has also come down on the side of Brigida and against the FAA and Chao, and also the Trump admin has joined the suit on behalf of the rejected candidates as well.(not sure if one will consider this a gain, or a loss, but it is what it is). As a pilot, living in one of the 10 most busy locations, and someone who takes a keen interest in govt double dealings, I have been following this case at a distance. Was the ATC who gave instructions to these planes a benefit of that bio diversity change from a meritocracy? Almost certainly, but I will leave room for the possibility that their cultural representation had nothing to do with the position they were in, and the course they took to get there. Hey - it could happen, right?
In conclusion, I am not a prof pilot. I never wanted to be, and the closest I came to a paid gig was towing banners and gliders at the local gravel strip in San Diego in my mis-spent youth. I got $20 for a glider pull to 3000' and I got $40 for each banner I towed down the golden sands of La Jolla beach, with my binoculars out spotting the best and smallest bikinis. Side note, I almost hit a brand C plane going the other way, doing the exact same thing I was doing, but I had a long tail and a banner on, so - not very peppy on the roll or pitch. However, I have spoken to a lot of ATC over the years, as I've always lived in or near those busy areas like LAX, DEN, DFW, and for a short time LGA. My interest in ATC merit is not just a passing fancy.
Further reading for those so inclined. I have no idea when or even if this will ever get sorted, and if it does get sorted, who will appeal, and if then, would it make cert. at the supremes, and making cert what would they think of the whole mess? I find it - troubling. And a bit distasteful that discrimination of the 'proper' kind has a place in hiring for this demanding and complicated role.
Review of the process: https://mslegal.org/2019/02/fight-es...am-at-the-faa/
Latest change, granting class status for the > 2500 controllers rejected:
https://mslegal.org/wp-content/uploa...f-Columbia.pdf
Parallel complain filed by the well respected training academy that's been providing ATC controllers since 1966, and will likely be combined with above. FAA motions to strike, and dismiss rejected:
https://www.ctiassociation.org/judge...ion-to-strike/
If the administrators of this forum consider this to be too far afield, of course they may reject and remove it wholesale, or ask for an edited compilation. I hope they leave it as is, and consider that I've gone to great pains to not ruffle the feathers, and remain as unbiased as possible in laying out the entire process and the why, who and what.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,813
Received 141 Likes
on
65 Posts
Thank you for that enlightening input. As you noted, it may have no relevance to the case in hand here, but it does make you wonder.
In my previous life I held the RAF Staff policy appointment for ATC Recruiting, Training and Examining. A circular letter to all RAF Branch and Trade Sponsors asked us what our Female Recruiting quota was. I was delighted to be able to respond that we had no quotas of any kind, and merely recruited and trained the 'best man for the job' regardless of gender. Responses from other Branches revealed we were the only ones with no quotas! Indeed our only constraint was that candidates had be under 35 years, as evidence had shown that training success rates showed a marked decline with older individuals.
At least our system worked without political interference, although in these days of wokery that may no longer be the case!
https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recru...veals-12678612
In my previous life I held the RAF Staff policy appointment for ATC Recruiting, Training and Examining. A circular letter to all RAF Branch and Trade Sponsors asked us what our Female Recruiting quota was. I was delighted to be able to respond that we had no quotas of any kind, and merely recruited and trained the 'best man for the job' regardless of gender. Responses from other Branches revealed we were the only ones with no quotas! Indeed our only constraint was that candidates had be under 35 years, as evidence had shown that training success rates showed a marked decline with older individuals.
At least our system worked without political interference, although in these days of wokery that may no longer be the case!
https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recru...veals-12678612
Pegase Driver
@ ethicalconundrum :
Thanks for writing that piece. Explains a situation typical of the US regarding ethnic minorities and the African American heritage you have , but it is not unique to the US. . We have had the same in Europe in most countries) regarding gender. In my old ATC center we were as controllers 100% white males when I started in early 1970s , in the whole center , management admin ,technicians included, some 500 staff, the only women were the secretaries, all of them , a few assistants and the cleaning staff. ( also 100% women) . Quite a huge difference today, but still lacking women in top management, but that is also changing rapidly.
When management decided to address the problem in the 90s we were confronted with recruitments bias. The recruiters were all white males that were looking for the qualities and criteria needed to become a controller based on what they knew : so they recruited their clones, and more white men.
Only very few countries solved the problem. Scandinavians , traditionally always more advanced socially but surprisingly in countries like Greece, were over 50% of controllers are women, the exact percentage one finds in the general population. So there are solutions. How to implement them is the issue.
Now does this issue relevant to our case here in Austin? Is the fact that the controller reported to be black really the issue here? Are you sure he was recruited because of the color of his skin and not because he had the qualities to become an average controller and not a super one , in a similar manner as the first women in ATC or in Flying for that matter , had to be to survive? Was he judged by his colleagues differently because he was physically different? (black or woman ?) Or was he just an average controller just like the vast majority of the white colleagues, but when making a mistake was immediately singled out as it often the case. The investigation might tell us that, I say might because I am not sure the NTSB wants to go deep in that minefield..
That said , a last word on “woke” . I know this word in the US especially has recently taken a negative political tone, especially in the republican party, and in the military as well. in Europe we prefer to use inclusion and equity, less emotional. But one thing is for sure : the world is changing in that respect. . Go in campus today ( I have a kid in university) talk to the kids, a very high percentage are Vegan and even more are “woke” . pro LBGTQ and feel quite strongly about it all . This is the generation that is coming to replace us, and will come to power in a couple of decades, We are the dinosaurs.
Thanks for writing that piece. Explains a situation typical of the US regarding ethnic minorities and the African American heritage you have , but it is not unique to the US. . We have had the same in Europe in most countries) regarding gender. In my old ATC center we were as controllers 100% white males when I started in early 1970s , in the whole center , management admin ,technicians included, some 500 staff, the only women were the secretaries, all of them , a few assistants and the cleaning staff. ( also 100% women) . Quite a huge difference today, but still lacking women in top management, but that is also changing rapidly.
When management decided to address the problem in the 90s we were confronted with recruitments bias. The recruiters were all white males that were looking for the qualities and criteria needed to become a controller based on what they knew : so they recruited their clones, and more white men.
Only very few countries solved the problem. Scandinavians , traditionally always more advanced socially but surprisingly in countries like Greece, were over 50% of controllers are women, the exact percentage one finds in the general population. So there are solutions. How to implement them is the issue.
Now does this issue relevant to our case here in Austin? Is the fact that the controller reported to be black really the issue here? Are you sure he was recruited because of the color of his skin and not because he had the qualities to become an average controller and not a super one , in a similar manner as the first women in ATC or in Flying for that matter , had to be to survive? Was he judged by his colleagues differently because he was physically different? (black or woman ?) Or was he just an average controller just like the vast majority of the white colleagues, but when making a mistake was immediately singled out as it often the case. The investigation might tell us that, I say might because I am not sure the NTSB wants to go deep in that minefield..
That said , a last word on “woke” . I know this word in the US especially has recently taken a negative political tone, especially in the republican party, and in the military as well. in Europe we prefer to use inclusion and equity, less emotional. But one thing is for sure : the world is changing in that respect. . Go in campus today ( I have a kid in university) talk to the kids, a very high percentage are Vegan and even more are “woke” . pro LBGTQ and feel quite strongly about it all . This is the generation that is coming to replace us, and will come to power in a couple of decades, We are the dinosaurs.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
@ ethicalconundrum :
Thanks for writing that piece. Explains a situation typical of the US regarding ethnic minorities and the African American heritage you have , but it is not unique to the US. . We have had the same in Europe in most countries) regarding gender. In my old ATC center we were as controllers 100% white males when I started in early 1970s , in the whole center , management admin ,technicians included, some 500 staff, the only women were the secretaries, all of them , a few assistants and the cleaning staff. ( also 100% women) . Quite a huge difference today, but still lacking women in top management, but that is also changing rapidly.
When management decided to address the problem in the 90s we were confronted with recruitments bias. The recruiters were all white males that were looking for the qualities and criteria needed to become a controller based on what they knew : so they recruited their clones, and more white men.
Only very few countries solved the problem. Scandinavians , traditionally always more advanced socially but surprisingly in countries like Greece, were over 50% of controllers are women, the exact percentage one finds in the general population. So there are solutions. How to implement them is the issue.
Now does this issue relevant to our case here in Austin? Is the fact that the controller reported to be black really the issue here? Are you sure he was recruited because of the color of his skin and not because he had the qualities to become an average controller and not a super one , in a similar manner as the first women in ATC or in Flying for that matter , had to be to survive? Was he judged by his colleagues differently because he was physically different? (black or woman ?) Or was he just an average controller just like the vast majority of the white colleagues, but when making a mistake was immediately singled out as it often the case. The investigation might tell us that, I say might because I am not sure the NTSB wants to go deep in that minefield..
That said , a last word on “woke” . I know this word in the US especially has recently taken a negative political tone, especially in the republican party, and in the military as well. in Europe we prefer to use inclusion and equity, less emotional. But one thing is for sure : the world is changing in that respect. . Go in campus today ( I have a kid in university) talk to the kids, a very high percentage are Vegan and even more are “woke” . pro LBGTQ and feel quite strongly about it all . This is the generation that is coming to replace us, and will come to power in a couple of decades, We are the dinosaurs.
Thanks for writing that piece. Explains a situation typical of the US regarding ethnic minorities and the African American heritage you have , but it is not unique to the US. . We have had the same in Europe in most countries) regarding gender. In my old ATC center we were as controllers 100% white males when I started in early 1970s , in the whole center , management admin ,technicians included, some 500 staff, the only women were the secretaries, all of them , a few assistants and the cleaning staff. ( also 100% women) . Quite a huge difference today, but still lacking women in top management, but that is also changing rapidly.
When management decided to address the problem in the 90s we were confronted with recruitments bias. The recruiters were all white males that were looking for the qualities and criteria needed to become a controller based on what they knew : so they recruited their clones, and more white men.
Only very few countries solved the problem. Scandinavians , traditionally always more advanced socially but surprisingly in countries like Greece, were over 50% of controllers are women, the exact percentage one finds in the general population. So there are solutions. How to implement them is the issue.
Now does this issue relevant to our case here in Austin? Is the fact that the controller reported to be black really the issue here? Are you sure he was recruited because of the color of his skin and not because he had the qualities to become an average controller and not a super one , in a similar manner as the first women in ATC or in Flying for that matter , had to be to survive? Was he judged by his colleagues differently because he was physically different? (black or woman ?) Or was he just an average controller just like the vast majority of the white colleagues, but when making a mistake was immediately singled out as it often the case. The investigation might tell us that, I say might because I am not sure the NTSB wants to go deep in that minefield..
That said , a last word on “woke” . I know this word in the US especially has recently taken a negative political tone, especially in the republican party, and in the military as well. in Europe we prefer to use inclusion and equity, less emotional. But one thing is for sure : the world is changing in that respect. . Go in campus today ( I have a kid in university) talk to the kids, a very high percentage are Vegan and even more are “woke” . pro LBGTQ and feel quite strongly about it all . This is the generation that is coming to replace us, and will come to power in a couple of decades, We are the dinosaurs.
Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.
The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.
Last edited by punkalouver; 24th Feb 2023 at 05:12.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,813
Received 141 Likes
on
65 Posts
Unlike ATC Watcher, I worked with female controller colleagues from Day 1 [1965]. And, indeed, several of "ethnic origin" [can I say that these days?]. In both ATC and Fighter Control, females rose to the higher ranks. Perhaps we got it right?
yes, but were they vegans? This is a contributory factor apparently.
During recent congressional testimony (7 Feb?), the NTSB Chairman noted that 95% of U.S. airline pilots are White and 3% are Black and that was a “problem” that needed to be addressed. You might ask what that statistic has to do with safety.
First, thanks to the mods for letting this play out. It's a contentious issue, but without letting the light of day shine on these contentious issues we can't move forward with solutions. I will not quote the posts above in full, but would like to address some things.
@ATC Watcher:
You asked(rhetorically or not) If I am sure that the controller in Austin was part of the program instituted in 2013. Of course not. No one knows how he was recruited or trained, or assigned and if it was genuine merit, and would have been selected without the biographic quiz. Recall that I was explaining about 'the system' and as systemic problems go, he was representative of that change in the system. I can't even say it was likely he was part of that new system. One may draw their own conclusions about events, and how the system shaped and produced the individuals, but without specific detail on his background, no one will ever know. Add to that, given the sensitive nature of the situation, those in charge of 'the system' will never, ever be forthcoming about this individual's path that may shed light on the limitations or negative effects of that change in ATC hiring. The NTSB, and the administration as a whole have no interest in pursuing the details required to tarnish the new system under this current admin(Obama term 3).
On a side note to your personal situation, at various times, I'm a college prof. Of course at one time I was also a student. During my mis-spent youth, I too was considered a 'woke' or sponsor of all things trendy, and modern(long before woke became de rigueur). I was very opinionated and thought how smart I was to be so inclusive, and so equality oriented(equity and equality are very much not the same). Of course the system(there it is again) was very much supportive of this particular bent in thought control, and universities around the world are even more directed in this manner today. However, at some point, many university grads hit the harsh reality of the real world. A world where merit in whatever field is no longer sufficient to succeed. Where the importance of doing good work is secondary to the importance of gender, or color, or acceptance of a group of identifying letters jumbled together. Outside of STEM coursework(my chosen field), the majority of youth in university today are bombarded, and repeatedly spoon-fed an unending stream of wokeness, and/or diversity, and/or equity(not equality), and/or pronoun mandates, and/or judged on how well they accept all manor of alternative situations and people. While it's fine for a system(adv education) to make students aware of this systemic program, the process in the US has become completely immersed in the wokeness to the point is has left the educational foundation and entered the indoctrination stage. Even in STEM, we feel the pressure from our dept chair, and college board, but there is resistance as we really have a job to do preparing kids for complex and advanced scientific endeavors. Hope your child comes out of the whole thing with an appreciation that there is another side out there. Where color, gender, letter jumble acceptance, and pronouns all take a back seat to ability to complete the tasks or job at hand. Such as moving the alum tubes around without any bending.
@ATC Watcher:
You asked(rhetorically or not) If I am sure that the controller in Austin was part of the program instituted in 2013. Of course not. No one knows how he was recruited or trained, or assigned and if it was genuine merit, and would have been selected without the biographic quiz. Recall that I was explaining about 'the system' and as systemic problems go, he was representative of that change in the system. I can't even say it was likely he was part of that new system. One may draw their own conclusions about events, and how the system shaped and produced the individuals, but without specific detail on his background, no one will ever know. Add to that, given the sensitive nature of the situation, those in charge of 'the system' will never, ever be forthcoming about this individual's path that may shed light on the limitations or negative effects of that change in ATC hiring. The NTSB, and the administration as a whole have no interest in pursuing the details required to tarnish the new system under this current admin(Obama term 3).
On a side note to your personal situation, at various times, I'm a college prof. Of course at one time I was also a student. During my mis-spent youth, I too was considered a 'woke' or sponsor of all things trendy, and modern(long before woke became de rigueur). I was very opinionated and thought how smart I was to be so inclusive, and so equality oriented(equity and equality are very much not the same). Of course the system(there it is again) was very much supportive of this particular bent in thought control, and universities around the world are even more directed in this manner today. However, at some point, many university grads hit the harsh reality of the real world. A world where merit in whatever field is no longer sufficient to succeed. Where the importance of doing good work is secondary to the importance of gender, or color, or acceptance of a group of identifying letters jumbled together. Outside of STEM coursework(my chosen field), the majority of youth in university today are bombarded, and repeatedly spoon-fed an unending stream of wokeness, and/or diversity, and/or equity(not equality), and/or pronoun mandates, and/or judged on how well they accept all manor of alternative situations and people. While it's fine for a system(adv education) to make students aware of this systemic program, the process in the US has become completely immersed in the wokeness to the point is has left the educational foundation and entered the indoctrination stage. Even in STEM, we feel the pressure from our dept chair, and college board, but there is resistance as we really have a job to do preparing kids for complex and advanced scientific endeavors. Hope your child comes out of the whole thing with an appreciation that there is another side out there. Where color, gender, letter jumble acceptance, and pronouns all take a back seat to ability to complete the tasks or job at hand. Such as moving the alum tubes around without any bending.
In the lower left corner of each post is a red and white triangle hot link. This is used to report a post or posts to the mods for review. There is also a setting in the user control panel for hiding posts from members that one does not want to see. It's called the 'ignore' setting. May be useful for someone who does not want to see alternative opinions expressed that may bear useful info on the topic.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don’t see any Women in Trash Collectin organizations.
I have found this whole thread very interesting. When we started it was about ATC systems in the U.S. As views are being expressed, if it was a bit more procedural, if control meant control rather than what seems more passing information to pilots at times, it might all just be a bit calmer on U.S. ATC and ATCOs might be respected a little bit more. I am quite sure the Austin controller didn't mean to screw up that day- if indeed he is found to have done so - it happened because of possibly errors in yes in selection but also in training and maybe procedures. All need to be looked at. It didn't happen because of his race. That might have put him at a disadvantage though because of the opportunities he was afforded by society.
Now it has become person focused Way back I found the Virgin vs Southwest conversation Interesting. "Can we have a little freedom here" is not something I have ever heard listening and working U.K. ATC. What freedom does he want - the freedom push in - or worse collide? How about an apology or at least neutralizing statement " we were a bit quick off the mark and didn't see you".
There doesn't seem to be much humility- or feeling for the fellow (but different) person here. Lots of entitled comments. "Put yourself in the position of the worse person you can see" is a good way to improve things.
Mods feel free to delete this if you think inappropriate- I have just found the last few posts a little disturbing yet enlightening at the same time.
Last edited by 22/04; 23rd Feb 2023 at 19:07.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 71
Posts: 852
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pending litigation arising from Air Traffic Controller training and hiring processes . . . is news to this SLF/attorney (which isn't surprising since my career so far hasn't been in aviation). I'm not commenting on the court proceedings here, however, because I have no plans to get involved at this time and I'm not otherwise inclined to do a good few hours of reading of the series of court filings, in order to obtain a basis on which at least to try to comment intelligently - and as importantly if not more so, comment in a manner useful to the pilot community hanging around here.
Also, I'm invoking a forum stock-in-trade - I'll wait at least for the NTSB Prelim Report, prior to chasing cause-and-effect links pertaining to this specific controller and these specific actions and omissions. . . . let alone generalizing into larger social commentary.
Class action litigation in U.S. federal court, in general, is a heavy lift. One aspect of it that can be noted here is that the remedial powers of a federal district court are quite broad. Class action outcomes related to employment practices, and more particularly to employee selection procedures, can include broad changes to practices, policies and procedures.
How will the issues on which - if descriptions in previous posts are accurate - the litigation is focusing more attention become part of FAA reauthorization? I'd guess--"watch this space", as the Austin incident is very much on the agenda of one of the U.S. Senators from Texas, who is the ranking member of the Senate Committee with jurisdiction over that forthcoming reauthorization measure.
Also, I'm invoking a forum stock-in-trade - I'll wait at least for the NTSB Prelim Report, prior to chasing cause-and-effect links pertaining to this specific controller and these specific actions and omissions. . . . let alone generalizing into larger social commentary.
Class action litigation in U.S. federal court, in general, is a heavy lift. One aspect of it that can be noted here is that the remedial powers of a federal district court are quite broad. Class action outcomes related to employment practices, and more particularly to employee selection procedures, can include broad changes to practices, policies and procedures.
How will the issues on which - if descriptions in previous posts are accurate - the litigation is focusing more attention become part of FAA reauthorization? I'd guess--"watch this space", as the Austin incident is very much on the agenda of one of the U.S. Senators from Texas, who is the ranking member of the Senate Committee with jurisdiction over that forthcoming reauthorization measure.
Pegase Driver
A lot of gender and race based preferences these days to artificially change ratios. We read about it all the time. Based on an ATR crash and recent near collision disasters(JFK, HNL, AUS ), it would seem that the serious incidents may be skewed because of it, and only a mere 45 days into the year. Coincidence? Perhaps.
.
.
the .. 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
T if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions.
The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination.
The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
Finaly :
you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur
At the beginning of the recording, FedEx checks in as a Cat III arrival.
https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviati...sion/msg75658/
https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviati...sion/msg75658/
Time for SATCO to go and contemplate his navel and then ask for funds to get two LO VIZ RWYS working, or go to gate hold.
A lot of gender and race based preferences these days to artificially change ratios. We read about it all the time. Based on an ATR crash and recent near collision disasters(JFK, HNL, AUS ), it would seem that the serious incidents may be skewed because of it, and only a mere 45 days into the year. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.
The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.
Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.
The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.
But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.
Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.
The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.
And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.
I was a controller for a while, not in the US. No preferential hiring at all, just a very hard selection. Class was probably 75% male. Female graduation rate was way higher, and not because they got more help. Complaining about female controllers really doesn't help your case....
I am a 55 year old white guy, so I can say I am a dinosaur. I believe the word you were looking for ends with -ist