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NEDUDE said
'For example Thomas Cook has AOCs in the UK, Belgium, Denmark and Germany (branded as Condor). Their combined fleet is 94 aircraft. They also regularly use sub-contracted airlines who employ contract pilots which pay far worse than Norwegian. In the summer season 2016 they used Avion Express which employed pilots on short term contracts. All of the Thomas Cook AOCs have U.S. DOT Authority and have it with zero controversy. Why is that? Is it because they have less than 100 airplanes? Is that the magic number?' Firstly, the German, UK, Scandi and Belgium AOC airlines are all long established as independent entities and despite efforts at integration, still operate as such. There are some t&c differences, but largely a TC pilot is well looked after. What is not OK and causes much concern among the tc workforce, is the increased use of 3rd. party operators, such as SmartLynx, Avion Ex and Air Tanker. Expansion of this type of operation is resisted by BALPA, sometimes with success, sometimes less so. However, since the 3rd party penetration into our company has been resisted, we have been able increase our own workforce and increase command oppotunities for people on proper contracts with good t&c's. It's always going to be a fight though, because I'm sure that our management look enviously over to the likes of Norwegian and wish they could treat us the same way. |
BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along 😉👍🏻' Assuming that this comment is not tongue in cheek, yes, there is something you can do about it. Get Unionised and grow a pair! |
I think we can agree that the top management in NAS is extremely clever and visionary. Critics say that they do not play by the rules, but I strongly disagree. I think we can agree they are incompetent, short-sighted and break the rules: After thousands of passengers are left stranded, distraught and their travel plans in ruins: “Norwegian Air’s boss apologizes for chaos” http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/07/06/norwegian-airs-boss-apologizes/ Norwegian’s staff begin to reject the vision of an airline “unemployment” labor model: “We will not accept to negotiate with NAR ES, a staffing company, since this is not consistent with the [Spanish] labor laws, says USO [Union Sindical Obrera] representative Ernesto Inglesis” “Spanish unions threaten Norwegian strike” – DN News 10/1/17 http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik A Norwegian 787 flies across the Atlantic illegally without the required number of cabin crew. Norwegian’s DFO informs a Norway newspaper that the number of flight attendants is based on the number of passengers - the rules state number of seats: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-fly-underbemannet-over-atlanteren---uakseptabelt-sier-luftfartstilsynet/60837640 Labor relations forecast: Spanish uprising |
BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along ������' Good god. What a view. You have a company whose strategy is clearly to put others out of business so they can reap the rewards and that is OK ! How the hell do Norwegian afford all these shiny new jets ? They pay their pilots a fair amount of dosh even if it is through an agency so these pilots have no labour protection. They use the same airports so have the same landing costs. They use the same fuel efficient aircraft as BA and Virgin. So how do they undercut the pricing so much ? And why ? Answer is they make huge great losses and someone somewhere as bank rolling this. And the only reason for such a strategy is ultimate market domination. Pilots on here defending Norwegian simply are supporting the devil from within. It beggars belief that ostensible intelligent people cannot see what the end game is and what that would mean for them. Norwegian have taken on eJ and Ryanair on short haul and are not winning. These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules. Now they are turning to long haul and if they succeed the price will be paid by Ba and Virgin and the stupid crews who have helped them do it. Question...... where has Norwegian got all the money from to do this ???? |
Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop
(Post 9643872)
BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along ������' Good god. What a view. You have a company whose strategy is clearly to put others out of business so they can reap the rewards and that is OK ! How the hell do Norwegian afford all these shiny new jets ? They pay their pilots a fair amount of dosh even if it is through an agency so these pilots have no labour protection. They use the same airports so have the same landing costs. They use the same fuel efficient aircraft as BA and Virgin. So how do they undercut the pricing so much ? And why ? Answer is they make huge great losses and someone somewhere as bank rolling this. And the only reason for such a strategy is ultimate market domination. Pilots on here defending Norwegian simply are supporting the devil from within. It beggars belief that ostensible intelligent people cannot see what the end game is and what that would mean for them. Norwegian have taken on eJ and Ryanair on short haul and are not winning. These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules. Now they are turning to long haul and if they succeed the price will be paid by Ba and Virgin and the stupid crews who have helped them do it. Question...... where has Norwegian got all the money from to do this ???? |
[QUOTE]These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules./QUOTE]
Hahahahahahahaha....jesus.....hahahahahaha......call an ambulance....... hahahaha......completely split.......waist to armpit..........hahahahaha |
[quote=Ryanairpilot;9643886]
These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules./QUOTE] Hahahahahahahaha....jesus.....hahahahahaha......call an ambulance....... hahahaha......completely split.......waist to armpit..........hahahahaha |
OK Ryanairpilot. Glad you find me such a joke. Enzo is right. I was particularly referring to laws relating to funding and subsidising of airlines. I am acutely aware that the other two will do what they can to gain cost advantage. Any cash mountain held by Ryanair has been gained through trading. Norwegians certainly has not.
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Guys/girls
I'm interested in the work schedules they fly at Norwegian. May be it was posted earlier on in the thread? Please point me to that if i overlooked it. Thanks! Sd |
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THE EASY RIDE IS OVER ---- NOT ANY MORE ANY ! Financing / Loan guarantees to Norwegian, to "Buy" Boeings, with Boeing "in the middle" to "Sell", BUT TO BE Bankrolled by US Taxpayers , Ex-Im Bank USA. and, Guaranteed by the US Government ! In the past, the U.S. Export-Import Bank has supported more than one billion dollars in financing for Norwegian's short-haul and long-haul aircraft. All of Norwegan's B-787s have received U.S. government financing support. In addition to the direct financing cost savings, Ex-Im Bank support allows foreign airlines like Norwegian to purchase new aircraft that are more fuel efficient and attractive to customers, compounding the economic advantage they receive from the U.S. government financing - In January 2012, Norwegian placed what was then the largest civil aviation order in European history, including 122 Boeing 737 aircraft (at the time Boeing’s largest ever European deal). When asked whether Norwegian would have trouble financing this immense purchase, ---- Norwegian’s CEO answered: “The order is financed through Exim (Export-Import Bank of the United States) and through state guaranteed loans, so I’m NOT worried about that at all.” In the case of Norwegian, the airline is seeking additional Ex-Im Bank financing while at the same time pursuing efforts to serve the United States via an Irish subsidiary called Norwegian Air International (NAI), which is based on a business model that seeks to avoid tax and employment laws and circumvent international agreements to gain an unfair competitive edge against U.S. airlines and their workers in the global marketplace. - "The Ex-Im Bank must conduct the economic review Congress requires and ensure that U.S. industry and jobs aren't compromised by its response to financing requests such as this application from Norwegian Air," ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Weaken / Bust the Unions in your Home Base of Norway, by all means available, and, hire Cheap / Underpaid Non-union employees elsewhere, anywhere. And, Overwork them, After, they pay Upfront 30 or 40 K for their training cost bond. OSM itself was established as a spin off OSM maritime, an agency supplying crews to shipping companies. OSM statement: “International Aviation will go the same way as shipping". And, not by coincidence, Norwegian's CEO was a maritime lawyer, for twenty years. -------- |
[quote=Enzo999;9643906]
Originally Posted by Ryanairpilot
(Post 9643886)
I think the reference to "playing by the rules" refrers to the fact Ryan has always made money, it started small and built a very successful business built on income and profit, it has never racked up multi million pound loses year in year out with the sole aim of undercutting and bankrupting its competitors! I am no fan fan of Ryan Air and they defiantly don't play by anyone's rules when it comes to employee rights but it does not survive on a "magic money mountain"! |
So where has NOK 17,131,000,000 of debt come from ?
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----- FINANCE / DEBT : 2015 - 17,131 Million NOK Estimates in Million NOK - Source : 4-traders - Thomson Reuters 2016 e - 22,016 2017 e - 33,695 2018 e - 43,416 2019 e - 57,611 ------ The stock price continues in Steady Persistent Decline. MINUS - 30 % - From Last April 2016. MINUS - 11% - From two weeks ago, January 2017 Last April 379 / January 302 / Now 268 again . Norwegian faces MANY challenges, Overcapacity - Overexpansion / Increased Volatility / Rising Debt / Rising Financing Interest Rates / Rising Intense Competition / Escalating Fare Wars / Rising Fuel Prices / Underpaid - Overworked Labor Force. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a few remarks of today : ".....Andrew Lobbenberg, who follows Norwegian for HSBC in London, said he was concerned about the carrier’s substantial number of future aircraft deliveries, which he said placed “considerable burden on its balance sheet.” “.....There is the risk of overexpansion and fuel prices skyrocketing,” said Henry Harteveldt, travel analyst at Atmosphere Research. Budget airlines appeal to very price-sensitive travelers, he noted, “and if something bad happens to the economy, these travelers will be most affected by the downturn.” " ...Discount carriers like WOW Air, Condor, Thomas Cook Airlines U.K. and Eurowings (a subsidiary of Lufthansa) have been able to muscle their way into the trans-Atlantic market because of a decade-old revision of the “open skies” pact, which eased various restrictions on routes and fares. ...Naturally, the behemoth legacy carriers are not sitting idly by as the upstarts gnaw away at their market share. This year British Airways will begin flying between Gatwick Airport and Fort Lauderdale and Oakland, routes served by Norwegian. BA’s parent company, the International Airlines Group, plans to start a long-haul, low-cost operation out of Barcelona this summer, also to compete with Norwegian. And Air France KLM recently said it would begin a long-haul operation that would be “simple” and “innovative.” In the United States, JetBlue is considering entering the European market. Philip Stewart, a spokesman, said that the airline had the option to take delivery of Airbus A321LR aircraft and that the plane “could potentially fly to Europe from the East Coast.” He said Europe suffered from a lack of competition and high fares, “and that is certainly an environment that JetBlue competes well in.” American carriers that already fly to Europe are focusing on new in-flight products to challenge airlines like Norwegian, which offers a “premium” in-flight service with more legroom, meals and airport lounge access, along with three different economy fares. Condor also offers flights with three classes of service. The president of Delta, Glen Hauenstein, said last week that by next year the carrier would fully roll out its “basic economy” fare — for which seats are assigned at check-in and the ability to make changes or cancel is prohibited — on international flights. In addition, starting this year Delta will begin offering a higher-priced “premium select” service on Airbus A350 and Boeing 777 aircraft, with improved seat pitch and upgraded meals, among other amenities. For its part, American recently began offering a “premium economy” service on 787-9 Dreamliner flights from Dallas to Madrid and Paris, and will eventually introduce it on all international wide-body aircraft." ------ |
[quote=Parkbremse;9644156]
Originally Posted by Enzo999
(Post 9643906)
How about you go to Norwegians website and download the annual report 2015. Read it. Then read it again. Google the terms you dont know. Then read it again. That should answer your questions... |
Originally Posted by JaxofMarlow
(Post 9644219)
So where has NOK 17,131,000,000 of debt come from ?
Quoting an absolute debt figure without context, without a balance sheet and without looking at asset structure is just showing off lack basic of business knowledge :ugh: Here is again a report by SEB Bank of NAS i posted earlier which is publicly available: https://webapp.sebgroup.com/mbs/research.nsf/alldocsbyunid/CD0FD8856587EB75C1257F56004F564C/$FILE/NAScredit110216aqw.pdf They give an explanation for their solid B credit rating with stating strength and risks of the corporate structure. If you google a little further, you will notice that in an aviation context, a solid B is about average and considering that they are aggressively expanding gives a hint that financial institutions are actually seeing that this company is build on solid grounds while also acknowledging the risks that go along with such an expansion. Another good source is the official annual report 2015, which as well publicly available. That will give you more information on the asset and liability structure and also an overview of some key financial figures from the last 10 years. People here get always annoyed when they read an article or report in the media which shows no understanding of aviation at all or quoting out of context figures, like when there has been a crash or when a there is a labour related conflict between pilots and management (and the public opinion is swayed against pilots by just quoting wrong figures) but have on the other hand no problem at all, and have taken it with Norwegian to the extreme, to do the exact same thing, jumping to conclusions from hearsay (contents and structure of contracts) or out of context figures without having background knowledge ( do you know without asking google what tangible assets are, do you know how to properly read a balance sheet, do you know about the reporting standards of a large corporation) and showing a confirmation bias that would make an awesome case study in every CRM class. Its all about emotions not about facts here anymore. Post factum world par excellance. |
financial institutions are actually seeing that this company is built on solid grounds “Spanish unions threaten Norwegian strike” – DN News 10/1/17 http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik Spanish crews reject airline “unemployment” labor model: “We will not accept to negotiate with NAR ES, a staffing company, since this is not consistent with the [Spanish] labor laws, says USO [Union Sindical Obrera] representative Ernesto Inglesis” |
In other news BA staff are/have walked out, easyJet pilots threatened strike action, Virgin pilots work to rule and on it goes, pilots threatening strike action seldom happens, at least outside Norway.
Unfortunately for some they will only be happy if Norwegian goes bust or has a crash, for the real anti Norwegian trolls, preferably both, this illustrates more about them than it does about Norwegian Bondi has been at it for years and thus far has be wrong about 99% of his assertions. No one pretends life in Norwegian is perfect but it's what it is, if people don't like it they are free to leave, all join voluntarily, not drafted. All of Norwegians pilots pay tax and social insurance in their country of work, deducted by the employer mainly OSM UK pilots have a union agreement with OSM, Bondi will tell you it's worthless, but it has managed to gain a 3 year pay deal, private health cover, pension and changes/improvement to the hotels used. I have worked for a few airlines in my time and Norwegian meets my needs, I work more than I did in some ( now bust) but on the flip side I earn way more than I did in any of the previous ones that had a more conventional employment set up. I don't pretend to be an accountant or understand debt ratios, but I do understand that you need scale in this business to be profitable, you also need full aircraft, Norwegian have both, this is an airline that will have 21 B 787 dream liners by year end plus over a 100 B738. Ryanair is pulling away from easyJet and Norwegian is closing the gap on easyJet Just need to avoid crashes and going bust �� |
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--- Debt - financial consequences : ---- Just a few Financial FACTS -- "...In particular, the group's net debt has ballooned from --- NOK4.4 billion at the end of 2013 --- to --- NOK18.7 billion ( EUR 2.0 billion ) at the end of 3Q 2016. This has coincided with the addition of long haul aircraft to its business model, but also reflects expansion of its narrowbody fleet. " "... Norwegian's profitability suffered after its long haul launch, falling into loss in 2014 and returning to profit in 2015 –-- mainly thanks to lower fuel prices. It is likely to report another increase in profit for 2016, ... ---- but again mainly due to lower fuel prices: at the 9M 2016 stage its ex fuel unit cost was up by 3% --- and unit revenue was flat. " "...Norwegian plans to accelerate its ASK growth from 18% in 2016 to 30% in 2017, driven by a 60% increase in widebody capacity and a 20% increase for narrowbody routes. This is likely to place more acute downward pressure on unit revenue, while help from lower fuel prices may not be as strong as in 2016." "...Moreover, Norwegian expects its capital expenditure to double from --- USD 1.0 billion in 2016 --- to --- USD 2.1 billion in 2017 as aircraft deliveries step up significantly. "This points to a further increase in net debt. " ..... " but debt must be repaid one day. " ----- FINANCE / DEBT : Source : 4-traders - Thomson Reuters Estimates in Million NOK - 2016 e - 22,016 2017 e - 33,695 2018 e - 43,416 2019 e - 57,611 ------------------- The stock price continues in Steady Persistent Decline. MINUS - 30 % - From Last April 2016. MINUS - 11% - From two weeks ago, January 2017 Last April 379 / January 302 / Now 268 again . Norwegian faces MANY challenges, Overcapacity - Overexpansion / Increased Volatility / Rising Debt / Rising Financing Interest Rates / Rising Intense Competition / Escalating Fare Wars / Rising Fuel Prices / Underpaid - Overworked Labor Force. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sensitivity-analysis showed us that our model is highly sensitive to the fuel cost and the currency combined due to high volatility and sensitivity towards the cost of debt. The sensitivity towards the cost of debt is driven by NAS having a high debt to equity ratio." A debt to equity ratio of 5 means that debt holders have a 5 times more claim on assets than equity holders. A high debt to equity ratio usually means that a company has been aggressive in financing growth with debt, and, often results in volatile earnings as a result of the additional interest expense and a driver of stock performance / risk. S A S AB's Debt to Equity Ratio (Quarterly ) : 0.00 for July 2016. Norwegian Air Shuttle Debt to Equity Ratio (Quarterly): 5.83 for Sept. 2016. Norwegian Air Shuttle Debt to Equity Ratio ( Annual ) : Dec09 Dec10 Dec11 Dec12 Dec13 Dec14 Dec15 0.99 > 1.38 > 2.19 > 2.28 > 2.37 > 6.30 > 6.61 Norwegian Air Shuttle And Companies / Investment Rating = Baa3 Investment Grade: Aaa → Aa1 → Aa2 → Aa3 → A1 → A2 → A3 → Baa1 → Baa2 → Baa3 Long-term Corporate Obligation Ratings are the relative credit risk of fixed-income obligations with an original maturity of 1 year or more. The ratings reflect both the likelihood of default and any financial loss suffered in the event of default. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
Originally Posted by INKJET
(Post 9645150)
3 year pay deal, private health cover, pension
The heads of recruitment were asked directly about pensions and health care and the answer was definite no. Apparently a pension scheme was being "looked at". There was also no mention of any pay deal. The open day was specifically for 737 although the terms for the 787 were also gone over. Perhaps the deal you refer to isn't applicable to new joiners? |
99% of the rhetoric by Inkjet and his kind is heavily influenced by Kjos Kool-Aid. The fact that Norwegian’s Spanish crews are rejecting the airline “unemployment” scheme and recently announced they are prepared to strike, speaks volumes.
Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group posted on facebook regarding your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, OSM: “In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere” https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpilotgroup/posts/1398607800149526 (if a sign-up window appears, click 'not now' to remove) |
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