I reckon that DB and MM would make a wonderful pair of bookends.

Orient Ship Management is seeking to employ US based pilots to be rented out to Norwegian, what do you “reckon” to the statement from OSM to the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association, NCCA, that;

“Under the governing laws of the RLA, until there is a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) in place with the NCCA, there is no obligation to maintain the status quo which means the employer may unilaterally change policies and introduce or expand programs, or make other changes to the status quo terms and conditions of employees”

Perhaps your reckoning is limited to superficial remarks of no consequence or value.

So when wow air is flying low cost, long haul flights in / out of the US its ok, but when Norwegian does it's not? Have you seen the wow contracts?!

CP

Did you ever had a look to the WOW T&C's?

Also note there has been no mention of Vuelings T&Cs yet no doubt they will be given DoT approval without any comment from the American unions

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--- If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. These words have been attributed to Derek Bok who was a President of Harvard University ...


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I have to ask, why the hostility towards Norwegian while giving a free pass to all the other airlines out there who pay less (Eurowings for example) or who make use of contract pilots (WOW Air, Brussels Airlines, and Aegean for example)? Just curious what you (Direct Bondi and marvelman) see is vastly different between Norwegian and the others.

I would imagine it's because of their size and ambition! While other companies might offer slightly worse Terms (although I fail to see how) no other company has 130 operational aircraft with 260 others on order. They have somehow through what can only be described as "magic" built a massive company that many see as a threat to the whole insustry, they are at the forefront of the race to the bottom.

Also many people myself included feeling very uneasy about the "magic" that has got them this far, a company that has lost hundreds of millions of dollars through the years finds the money to buy 400 aircraft, how does that work. The cost of these aircraft seem to be instantly written off, I keep reading they are able to offer tickets to NY for 56 pounds because of the fuel efficient 787, but fuel is cheap and the 787 is extremely expensive, BA and Virgin have 787s but they are not flying people for 56 quid, I wonder why? Also last time I checked Norway were not in EU so how have they managed to worm their way in to the open sky agreement, I will tell you how by being under hand and devious, Irish airline my arse hole!!

All this in no way excuses any of the other bottom feeding airlines in the world taking advantage of its staff or bending employment rules just to make a bit more money, it's just Norwegian are the current kings of it taking over from Ryan a feat many thought impossible.

You are aware that Norway (and Iceland) are covered under the 2012 amendment to the Open Skies treaty correct? Norway and Iceland are also part of the EEA and Schengen agreement, so their inclusion into another EU associated treaty is not all that far fetched.

If you have not seen worse terms and conditions, you clearly have not been looking very hard. There are FAR, FAR worse terms and conditions available out there, even in Europe.

Oh right, then why all the EI regs? And why have they spent the last 3 years convincing US authroities they are an "Irish" company?

Anyway you seem to be missing my point, yes there may well be worse terms around but non on the scale of Norwegian. If you are happy with what's on offer and can't get in to an airline without stumping up 30 grand then go for it, I just hope your willingness to accept **** does no affect my employer in the future.

Well said Enzo. There are worse out there (pay) but nothing like the scale of Norwegian. If by cheating their way into a market that hurts those that play by the rules then they deserve nothing but derision and those pilots that defend them should be ashamed of themselves.

I am just curious why it is okay for some airline companies to use contract pilots, to pay less, and have multiple AOCs in various countries.

For example Thomas Cook has AOCs in the UK, Belgium, Denmark and Germany (branded as Condor). Their combined fleet is 94 aircraft. They also regularly use sub-contracted airlines who employ contract pilots which pay far worse than Norwegian. In the summer season 2016 they used Avion Express which employed pilots on short term contracts. All of the Thomas Cook AOCs have U.S. DOT Authority and have it with zero controversy. Why is that? Is it because they have less than 100 airplanes? Is that the magic number?

WOW Air also employs pilots on short term contracts and have used, and continue to use, sub-contracted airlines to operate some of their routes. Why has that not caused controversy? Is it because they are too small?

So why the past three years fighting with U.S. authorities? Perhaps it is because every other airline that uses multiple AOCs in multiple countries, sub-contracted employees, has lower pay rates, and is nearly the same size, have received the U.S. DOT authorisation with ZERO issues.

As for the EI regs and using Ireland to set up an AOC? Well it is not because they need it for access to the U.S. as Norway, and the NAS AOC are covered under the Open Skies Treaty (In case you haven't noticed Norwegian has been operating into the States for several years now - certainly they did not need the NAI certificate to do that). They also did not need it for the outsourced contracts, or for having a base in BKK, as that has also been done under the NAS AOC, which is based in Norway. So they did not need the NAI certificate for access to the States, and they did not need it for outsourcing contract employees, which have been the two main arguments ALPA has been using in their 'Deny NAI' campaign. So their must be another reason for setting up the NAI certificate. I wonder what that could be...

I certainly didn't pay 30grand and I'm pretty happy earning a 100k€+ as a relief captain (senior fo), which is next to impossible for me to earn as a first officer in germany. Considering that Eurowings pays an A330 captain 85k€ I do think its quite ok...

Sounds good, what's the pension like at Rishworth?

No pension but i guess you know that already. Never said everything was perfect and there is no room for improvement. Then again, the longhaul division exists for four years. Taking this timeframe, a lot has already improved, step by step and how anyone can expects that a company operating for four years has contracts similar to legacy carriers or airlines operating for 20 years+ is beyond me. Didn't have a pension at my previous airline either.

It's people that think that kind of remuneration is ok that are what's wrong with the industry today.
What's the pension?
What's the lol?
What's the sick pay?
What's the increments every year?
How much did you pay to get in?
If there's no pension then what the hell are you going to live on when you retire?

100k€ isn't far off what BA pay new first officers on LH. Except you also get pension, lol, IHP, sick pay, increments every year.
Oh, and they pay for your type rating too.

and you actually work for BA as opposed to an agency.

Norwegian Air Shuttle isn't four years old
 

Norwegian was founded on the remains of Busy Bee in 1992. B737 operations commenced in 2002 and B787 operations.... well that is a question of definition, but generally speaking four years ago. The pilot union had a scope clause, but unions are bound by legislative borders and as there were no bases within "reach" of the union. Therefore they were bypassed. NAS had an AOC called Norwegian Longhaul (NLH) which in turn received an exemption from the CAA in Norway in order to operate EI registered ac until Norwegian could set up an Irish AOC. This allowed NAS to bypass labour laws in Norway. As most know it took a long time for the Irish AOC, NAI to get DOT approval.
Meanwhile NLH received an extended period of exemption. When that finally expired NAS transferred most all of short haul to a new daughter company with a new AOC (NAN) and brought Longhaul on to the NAS AOC and received a exemption for NAS to pick up where NLH were "stopped".
Then new crewing companies were created to which the pilots were divided. Fortunately the person responsible for the CAA exemption accepted a position with one of the new subsidiaries in NAS and left the CAA.
And the saga continues-
I think we can agree that the top management in NAS is extremely clever and visionary. Critics say that they do not play by the rules, but I strongly disagree. They make their own rules.
They just re-write, re-route, adapt and prevail. Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along 😉👍🏻

Ummm, good question. I never thought of that before. Wow, I sure wish there was a way I could save some money for my retirement. Maybe that will be my new business and I can leave aviation. I am going to start a company where people can invest and manage their money for the long term. Very surprised nobody has ever thought of doing that before...