Fly for KLM… no Dutch language required.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Yomama1999

Seemed pretty calm and well substantiated to me.
Are you augmentative enough in the flight deck? Asking for a friend of-course...

This thread is revealing more than is obvious.

Not sure what your point is. You appear to be simply parroting.
Did you actually read all of the posts? (That was a rhetorical question btw)

[oboema]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Not sure what your point is. You appear to be simply parroting.
Did you actually read all of the posts? (That was a rhetorical question btw)

Probably one person operating under multiple victim accounts/ usernames just to make a statement

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Pander216

It is a shame that a subject that is very positive for non-native Dutch speakers is being turned in acquisitions of discrimination, racism and exclusion. Even the Dutch tradition (Sinterklaas) is being turned into something that it is not. Really?

Offcourse, KLM has a history, being 105 years old, just like it is inevitable with any legacy carrier. However, for years pilots are hired that have flown everywhere and are respected colleagues. Their experience at previous carriers is widely being used to improve training, procedures and processes. New is that S/O’s will be able to become SFI to train captains and First Officers as well.

Also, last week I flew with an S/O who had far more hours on the 777 then me in the RHS. He was only within the company for a few months. However, his experience was used by all crew. Hierarchy is very flat in NL (after Tenerife), so don’t worry at all about joining as S/O.

Furthermore, for years KLM has an expanded D&I mindset. Also the KLM group “Connecting colours”, is very active in D&I, including flights with e.g. an entire crew of colour on flights to Surinam, or all female flights. The “Over the Rainbow” group promotes LGBTIQ incentives and “Women on Board” connect women of all background. How is that with EK or QR? Or does RYR have these initiatives?

Being liberal, open-minded, talkative and interested is the backbone of KLM culture since we don’t have golden sinks or are able to sell tickets for 99 cents. Every Dutch person speaks English, even to the extent you cannot order a cup of coffee in Dutch in Amsterdam. Enroute we love to mingle with other crews, and it is more often then not that we end up with Qantas, EK or BA (Mostly cabin crew, since Nigel thinks he is upper class ) in the well known bars.

However, as the Dutch are direct and also love a good pun, don’t get offended when a gay steward tries to hit on you for fun, or jokes are being made. Also that is Dutch culture. Only narrow minded people take something like that as offensive.

And if you think it is strange that it is asked that you have a basic knowledge of Dutch after a year, then please do not apply. I flew for a German airline where from day one I had to speak German. Or what do you think if a Spanish or French native has the same mindset regarding their mother tongue when joining BA? How would you react then?

So, please stop ventilating personal frustrations, based on hearsay or on experiences where you did not get trough the process. I believe that after 2 years you can try again.

Last but not least, KLM has a great jumpseating agreement for crew living abroad. Just register, show up at the gate in uniform and you are able to commute to any KLM destination for free.

For everyone that still thinks KLM is a narrow-minded company :

https://img.static-kl.com/m/56037b9d...ent-engels.pdf

This is an awesome opportunity to work for a great company, based in a lovely country.
And yet people still rubbish it and find a reason to knock it.
Its staggering. Genuinely, I can’t figure out if it’s envy, fear or stupidity.

If it’s not for you, that’s cool, just scroll on.

But if you think it would work for you, give it a crack.
And learn Dutch 😎

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by MerseyView

For starters try here: British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action - PPRuNe Forums

Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums

It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.

Are you serious?
This was almost 20 years ago.
How on earth do you think it’s relevant.
🤡

[MerseyView]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Are you serious?
This was almost 20 years ago.
How on earth do you think it’s relevant.
🤡

I explained it in #95, someone requested information, and I provided it. Never mind Dutch, it seems you are struggling to understand English! Or maybe you were one of the ones responsible back then! Thankfully Cityhopper is a nice place nowadays!

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by Av_mediaGal320

LOL Jog on!!! The intellectual dishonesty here is astounding. Speak of what you know or don't speak at all.

Back to topic!

telling someone to “jog on” and then ending with “back to topic” is a classic straw man (sorry “person”) arguement. A sure sign of having lost the debate.

[Spunky Monkey]

I wish I was younger to be able to apply for this.
What a great opportunity for those who have the fortitude and resilience to apply.
The Dutch are great, The Netherlands are awesome and I am envious.
Good luck to those who apply.

(This will also hopefully lead to an improvement of T&Cs across the European industry.

[TheFlyinGeek]

Given that everything is seniority based at KLM, are you forced on a Reserve Schedule for the first few years, and if so how long does it generally take to hold a 'Flying Block' for let's say the Cityhopper fleet?

Any word if KLM would ever consider non-EASA type rated pilots? I'm a Dutch native currently flying for Canada's flag carrier but since I'm in my early 40s not sure if it's still worth going through the whole ICAO to EASA conversion process without any kind of a job guarantee.

[richpea]

I wish the UK was still in the EU so I could apply for this... cheers Brexit

[Pander216]

And to show what kind of bad airline KLM is and what for monsters the Union are:

Today more specific CLA agreements have been made that allow for better support for woman that have Menstrual issues, PMS or issues with the birth of a child.

Already KLM had profound restrictions on woman that perform breastfeeding, but they only have become better for the mother.

[Jack D]

Breast feeding now permitted , yet another great reason to join ! I trust this is not in the cockpit ?
On the other hand …

[drfaust]

Guys don’t apply. We are all racist, sexist, classist and downright fascist if you ask me. Additionally our CRM is atrocious, especially if you are a woman, an ethnic minority etc.

/hides 🤣

On a serious note, if you are intelligent and under 30 years old looking for a fantastic career, you should be applying. If you are between 30 and 40 it becomes a bit more “interesting”, but unless you have a command position lined up in an excellent company elsewhere you are probably still better off coming here.

You can believe the sour grapes you read on here of course, it doesn’t matter much to me. I’d rather take the good salary, massive pension contribution and oh the loss of license that covers you at 70% of your last earned income until retirement is not too bad either. It can be upped to 100% if you choose to continue working in another job at the airline, but I digress.

Equally important a great bunch of colleagues that couldn’t give a dogs bollocks about your colour, religion, sexual orientation or whatever else you have going on and just want to enjoy a good day out.

Really don’t come here, it’s absolutely ****.

[Pander216]

Originally Posted by TheFlyinGeek

Given that everything is seniority based at KLM, are you forced on a Reserve Schedule for the first few years, and if so how long does it generally take to hold a 'Flying Block' for let's say the Cityhopper fleet?

Any word if KLM would ever consider non-EASA type rated pilots? I'm a Dutch native currently flying for Canada's flag carrier but since I'm in my early 40s not sure if it's still worth going through the whole ICAO to EASA conversion process without any kind of a job guarantee.

Well, not everything is seniority based. Your pay and position is. With KLM Cityhopper (I still believe) your annual leave is as well. However, they want to level this with KLM where annual leave is based on a handicap system.

Regarding standby/reserve, if you don’t bid on a reserve, it is equally allotted true all the pilots.

Roster is a rolling 4 weeks.

Within long haul there is a biding system that firstly goes on seniority, where 13 weeks before roster publication it is decided who had the most senior bid on a trip . However, for every allocated trip your “seniority” drops a bit, so that lower senior people get more chances.

Then, from 13 to 7 weeks before roster publication open flights can be “taken” on a first come-first serve base. When biding on such a flight, you immediately know if you got it.

Some people manage to create their entire schedule, knowing what you will do 3 months in advance.

On European flights (KLM/KLC), you can also bid on flights, guaranteed off etc. Especially the guaranteed off is not seniority based.

I think that KLM wants an EASA license. I am curious to see how transitioning licenses and medicals to the Dutch-CAA will go, looking e.g at GDPR rules. But time will tell.

[Pander216]

Originally Posted by Jack D

Breast feeding now permitted , yet another great reason to join ! I trust this is not in the cockpit ?
On the other hand …

I think you got rejected due to your inability to read English? Or on second hand, I believe you’re just trolling. Anyhow, please save everyone’s time and don’t apply.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by MerseyView

I explained it in #95, someone requested information, and I provided it. Never mind Dutch, it seems you are struggling to understand English! Or maybe you were one of the ones responsible back then! Thankfully Cityhopper is a nice place nowadays!

Thanks for the adult response.
I still don’t see how something from 20years ago is relevant to today. Which is why I asked the question.
If you can’t answer, fine, just say so. 🤡

[Yomama1999]

I think the offer is great. Pay is decent, pension is good, etc. etc. nothing to complain about there at all.

There is something else:

There is not one employer that is perfect and same for the country that hosts it.
In a thread about an employer that offers a job at Pprune, it is customary for everyone to chime in to discuss the good and the bad, discussing renumeration, job culture, country culture.

Never have I seen ,what I can only assume are, employees of the company defending the job offer tooth and nail to such an extent.
Never have I seen on this forum the sentiment that we should not discuss any potential bad, let's only discuss the good, this is only for people who want to join etc.

this can mean one of at least two things.
- The employer is amazing and the employees are very proud to be working there and thus are defending it.
- They are looking at expats as 'outsiders' and boy we should be so lucky that KLM is even offering this to people who are traditionally outside of the requirements.

Or maybe a mixture of both.

I think that people who are not from the Netherlands, coming to KLM should be sure to get all the available information that's out there, to make an informed decision.
They are expats and different things matter to them than the typical Dutchy.

So to the KLMers, don't get your panties in a twist if there is a little bad news here or there to be shared.
The Dutch are tolerant, aren't they?

Again, KLM offer looks fantastic, it is the reactions from the people here that are troubling.

[hannibal lecter]

I am surprised about the bashing towards Dutch people and KLM in particular. (Note: I am not Dutch nor I have any Dutch relative, only have a couple of friends which I first met in the flight deck) My own experience is good, I`ve worked with some Dutch colleagues and they are professional, polite and very open and friendly, never saw anything that would raise my eyebrows in surprise or concern.
KLM is one of the biggest and oldest airlines in the world, probably they've done mistakes in the past but like everybody else. Now I think is one of those airlines who have been taken steps for opening up since many years ago.
And by the way, there is an old saying amongst senior pilots that if you have any sort of problem, always go to Amsterdam/Holland. They will always welcome and support you. That cannot be coming from no where.

[MerseyView]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Thanks for the adult response.
I still don’t see how something from 20years ago is relevant to today. Which is why I asked the question.
If you can’t answer, fine, just say so. 🤡

Calling someone a clown, twice now, is an adult response, is it?

To answer your question, it is, and it isn't. It might be relevant as it shows the last time Dutch and non-Dutch speakers were mixed. However, it is less relevant as most new starters will start at Cityhopper where there is a much more inclusive atmosphere nowadays. From the training department down, there are pilots with experience of various flying schools and airlines. In fact, new starters will probably have plenty in common already.

[Yomama1999]

Originally Posted by hannibal lecter

I am surprised about the bashing towards Dutch people and KLM in particular. (Note: I am not Dutch nor I have any Dutch relative, only have a couple of friends which I first met in the flight deck) My own experience is good, I`ve worked with some Dutch colleagues and they are professional, polite and very open and friendly, never saw anything that would raise my eyebrows in surprise or concern.
KLM is one of the biggest and oldest airlines in the world, probably they've done mistakes in the past but like everybody else. Now I think is one of those airlines who have been taken steps for opening up since many years ago.
And by the way, there is an old saying amongst senior pilots that if you have any sort of problem, always go to Amsterdam/Holland. They will always welcome and support you. That cannot be coming from no where.

That's great!
I just want to point out that working with Dutch people outside of the Netherlands, and working as a foreigner not speaking the language in a Dutch company, are not the same.

What I'm talking about here is best descibed by the following reddit posts that may reflect what you're in for if you try to live full time in the Netherlands as an expat:
"Commendable that you are going for this. I've been in NL for nearly 13 years, moved here from Eastern Europe.

I'm fluent in Dutch, studied here, working with Dutchies everyday.

You'll get accepted into the social life much, much more easily if you speak the language, BUT, and I might be unfairly throwing everyone under the same bus, you'll never be fully treated like other Dutchies.

There will always be that look, that one little comment to remind you who you aren't and where you came from. It's part of the "Western mentality", maybe a superiority complex, hidden deep within the nation. Who knows, but it's there, and if you know then you know.

Difficult to explain it without experiencing it first hand."

and

"I dont feel like a victim, so no, no such mentality here, just plain fact.

Dutch culture, being Germanic in nature is much colder and less open than one might expect from southern Europe or even Eastern Europe, which are more community oriented.

My comment about Western Superiority still stands. It is a part of the heritage which is something not easy to shake off, but I dont hold a grudge, I have no reason to.

But even after all these years, learning the language and doing my best to adapt ro Dutch society, all that hard work will only get me so far.

And this is not me complaining, it's just the way things are. As I've said before, if you know, you know."




it's from a subreddit called 'netherlands', where expats in the Netherlands discuss.

Again, just showing the full picture for someone moving to another country.

[Jack D]

Originally Posted by Pander216

I think you got rejected due to your inability to read English? Or on second hand, I believe you’re just trolling. Anyhow, please save everyone’s time and don’t apply.

it’s what we call a joke , curiously a lack of sense of humour is not a Dutch trait as far as I know . You are getting a little bit too woke imo.
Don’t take things so seriously … and luckily for you I have no need to apply for any job .