Fly for KLM… no Dutch language required.
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 39
Likes: 20
From: uk
Please pass on what happened?
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 574
Likes: 429
From: Outbush
Where is the victim card?can you read? Where did I say she failed a selection?It's literally being pointed out by someone else that there were issues and that people weren't even called due to the issues I.e. not being from the right school. What part are you lot struggling with? I said what I said, don't put words in my mouth, it's very simple. Prove it to be a lie then, that there wasnt a selection in place that would discriminate in that way(unintentionally), prove it, or shut it.
If you want to challenge it, there are two contributors who added up to it. So you can approach logically and try to understand it, you clearly don't because it isn't your experience. So that's intellectually dishonest, isn't it?
LOL oh dear....
If you want to challenge it, there are two contributors who added up to it. So you can approach logically and try to understand it, you clearly don't because it isn't your experience. So that's intellectually dishonest, isn't it?
LOL oh dear....
Are you this argumentative on the flight deck?
Asking for a friend
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 39
Likes: 20
From: uk
Are you augmentative enough in the flight deck? Asking for a friend of-course...
This thread is revealing more than is obvious.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
It is a shame that a subject that is very positive for non-native Dutch speakers is being turned in acquisitions of discrimination, racism and exclusion. Even the Dutch tradition (Sinterklaas) is being turned into something that it is not. Really?
Offcourse, KLM has a history, being 105 years old, just like it is inevitable with any legacy carrier. However, for years pilots are hired that have flown everywhere and are respected colleagues. Their experience at previous carriers is widely being used to improve training, procedures and processes. New is that S/O’s will be able to become SFI to train captains and First Officers as well.
Also, last week I flew with an S/O who had far more hours on the 777 then me in the RHS. He was only within the company for a few months. However, his experience was used by all crew. Hierarchy is very flat in NL (after Tenerife), so don’t worry at all about joining as S/O.
Furthermore, for years KLM has an expanded D&I mindset. Also the KLM group “Connecting colours”, is very active in D&I, including flights with e.g. an entire crew of colour on flights to Surinam, or all female flights. The “Over the Rainbow” group promotes LGBTIQ incentives and “Women on Board” connect women of all background. How is that with EK or QR? Or does RYR have these initiatives?
Being liberal, open-minded, talkative and interested is the backbone of KLM culture since we don’t have golden sinks or are able to sell tickets for 99 cents. Every Dutch person speaks English, even to the extent you cannot order a cup of coffee in Dutch in Amsterdam. Enroute we love to mingle with other crews, and it is more often then not that we end up with Qantas, EK or BA (Mostly cabin crew, since Nigel thinks he is upper class
) in the well known bars.
However, as the Dutch are direct and also love a good pun, don’t get offended when a gay steward tries to hit on you for fun, or jokes are being made. Also that is Dutch culture. Only narrow minded people take something like that as offensive.
And if you think it is strange that it is asked that you have a basic knowledge of Dutch after a year, then please do not apply. I flew for a German airline where from day one I had to speak German. Or what do you think if a Spanish or French native has the same mindset regarding their mother tongue when joining BA? How would you react then?
So, please stop ventilating personal frustrations, based on hearsay or on experiences where you did not get trough the process. I believe that after 2 years you can try again.
Last but not least, KLM has a great jumpseating agreement for crew living abroad. Just register, show up at the gate in uniform and you are able to commute to any KLM destination for free.
For everyone that still thinks KLM is a narrow-minded company :
https://img.static-kl.com/m/56037b9d...ent-engels.pdf
Offcourse, KLM has a history, being 105 years old, just like it is inevitable with any legacy carrier. However, for years pilots are hired that have flown everywhere and are respected colleagues. Their experience at previous carriers is widely being used to improve training, procedures and processes. New is that S/O’s will be able to become SFI to train captains and First Officers as well.
Also, last week I flew with an S/O who had far more hours on the 777 then me in the RHS. He was only within the company for a few months. However, his experience was used by all crew. Hierarchy is very flat in NL (after Tenerife), so don’t worry at all about joining as S/O.
Furthermore, for years KLM has an expanded D&I mindset. Also the KLM group “Connecting colours”, is very active in D&I, including flights with e.g. an entire crew of colour on flights to Surinam, or all female flights. The “Over the Rainbow” group promotes LGBTIQ incentives and “Women on Board” connect women of all background. How is that with EK or QR? Or does RYR have these initiatives?
Being liberal, open-minded, talkative and interested is the backbone of KLM culture since we don’t have golden sinks or are able to sell tickets for 99 cents. Every Dutch person speaks English, even to the extent you cannot order a cup of coffee in Dutch in Amsterdam. Enroute we love to mingle with other crews, and it is more often then not that we end up with Qantas, EK or BA (Mostly cabin crew, since Nigel thinks he is upper class
) in the well known bars.However, as the Dutch are direct and also love a good pun, don’t get offended when a gay steward tries to hit on you for fun, or jokes are being made. Also that is Dutch culture. Only narrow minded people take something like that as offensive.
And if you think it is strange that it is asked that you have a basic knowledge of Dutch after a year, then please do not apply. I flew for a German airline where from day one I had to speak German. Or what do you think if a Spanish or French native has the same mindset regarding their mother tongue when joining BA? How would you react then?
So, please stop ventilating personal frustrations, based on hearsay or on experiences where you did not get trough the process. I believe that after 2 years you can try again.
Last but not least, KLM has a great jumpseating agreement for crew living abroad. Just register, show up at the gate in uniform and you are able to commute to any KLM destination for free.
For everyone that still thinks KLM is a narrow-minded company :
https://img.static-kl.com/m/56037b9d...ent-engels.pdf
Last edited by Pander216; 10th January 2025 at 08:19.
Joined: Dec 2020
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 179
Likes: 80
From: Amsterdam
What do you expect? Minorities insulting the European values! The Dutch have been nothing but sincerely welkoming with you minorities and you slam it in our faces! To show your gratitude, you insult us!
I write this with seethin anger!
I write this with seethin anger!
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2
Likes: 3
From: NL
As someone with quite some years experience in 2 different airlines before joining KLM a few years ago plus coming from a racially mixed background I feel like sharing my experience here. It’s been stated earlier by someone in this thread, as soon as you’ll walk through the door you’ll be regarded as KLM blue, despite race, faith, sexual preference etc. Hierarchy in the flightdeck is very flat and I feel like my precious flying experience is much appreciated, despite not having attended the so called ‘posh’ KFA. The company might not be a good fit for everyone but if you are looking for a solid career in a legacy airline, this is probably one of the best contracts in Europe. And as far as learning Dutch goes: it will make your life a lot more enjoyable downroute as almost everybody in the company is Dutch and they don’t easily switch to English during conversations, despite being almost fluent in it. Might be arrogant, but it’s part of their culture and probably learning Dutch to a reasonable extent is the price to pay if you want to have an enjoyable and good time during your career within KLM. I doubt this will be different within AF, LH, Iberia etc.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 72
Likes: 142
From: UK
For starters try here: British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action - PPRuNe Forums
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
Joined: Dec 2020
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 179
Likes: 80
From: Amsterdam
For starters try here: British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action - PPRuNe Forums
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
Will you start talking about the KLM Tenerife incident next? It's not too far away either.
Hello!! 2025 is calling...
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
For starters try here: British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action - PPRuNe Forums
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
Or here: Air UK ---> KLM UK --> KLM Cityhopper - What happened to the British Pilots? - PPRuNe Forums
It was worse for the Cabin Crew, there are none left.
We can also include the MP debacle that is still in court? Also the MP pilots that took the mainline contract are already captain 737.
If anything, it shows it is best if you go on a KLM mainline contract.
short flights long nights
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,017
Likes: 327
As a Non Dutch person, that had the absolute pleasure of working for Transavia ( a KLM subsidiary) for 18 years, who did not speak Dutch, it was the best years of my aviation career. Pension is not as good as KLM, but not bad. If you can join mainline KLM, do it, you will be very lucky.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 72
Likes: 142
From: UK
Indeed, things are much better in Cityhopper nowadays, new pilots from any background will now be welcomed. All of the KLS straight to KLM elitists have moved to KLM, replaced by the Dutch who have flown for other airlines. The experience of the real world has produced lovely to fly with, well-rounded individuals. I'd say it's a flag-carrier, not a nationality thing. I'm sure there are plenty of Sky Gods in the likes of Lufthansa, BA and Air France, etc. if they were brought up being told that they are special and haven't experienced the real world.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 72
Likes: 142
From: UK
Djeez, you are comparing the acquisition and integration of Air UK that was 25 years ago, with becoming a mainline pilot these days? That was a whole different ballgame. If anything, you can say that the UK pilots that took the mainline contract and learned Dutch are all very happy and respected colleagues. They are transitioning now to captain longhaul, whereas the pilots that chose not to integrate indeed had these problems.
We can also include the MP debacle that is still in court? Also the MP pilots that took the mainline contract are already captain 737.
If anything, it shows it is best if you go on a KLM mainline contract.
We can also include the MP debacle that is still in court? Also the MP pilots that took the mainline contract are already captain 737.
If anything, it shows it is best if you go on a KLM mainline contract.
Firstly, when the opportunity came to get a KLM contract it meant immediately leaving the pilots UK base and moving to an AMS base, either uprooting a family or a tiring commute, for many years. The UK bases were shut later. Secondly, learning Dutch wasn't a factor in any pilot's decision-making process. Thirdly, I don't know of any ex-KLM UK pilots who have yet enough seniority for Captain long haul.
By the way, I find your use of the word 'integrate', let's say, 'unfortunate' here. The very few UK pilots still on a UK contract operate to the same terms, conditions and standards as their Dutch colleagues do and are rostered the same. Typical problems they have had, occurring when their UK bases were shut, are the same problems their ex-colleagues faced.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 11
From: EU
You are cherry picking a little here.
Firstly, when the opportunity came to get a KLM contract it meant immediately leaving the pilots UK base and moving to an AMS base, either uprooting a family or a tiring commute, for many years. The UK bases were shut later. Secondly, learning Dutch wasn't a factor in any pilot's decision-making process. Thirdly, I don't know of any ex-KLM UK pilots who have yet enough seniority for Captain long haul.
By the way, I find your use of the word 'integrate', let's say, 'unfortunate' here. The very few UK pilots still on a UK contract operate to the same terms, conditions and standards as their Dutch colleagues do and are rostered the same. Typical problems they have had, occurring when their UK bases were shut, are the same problems their ex-colleagues faced.
Firstly, when the opportunity came to get a KLM contract it meant immediately leaving the pilots UK base and moving to an AMS base, either uprooting a family or a tiring commute, for many years. The UK bases were shut later. Secondly, learning Dutch wasn't a factor in any pilot's decision-making process. Thirdly, I don't know of any ex-KLM UK pilots who have yet enough seniority for Captain long haul.
By the way, I find your use of the word 'integrate', let's say, 'unfortunate' here. The very few UK pilots still on a UK contract operate to the same terms, conditions and standards as their Dutch colleagues do and are rostered the same. Typical problems they have had, occurring when their UK bases were shut, are the same problems their ex-colleagues faced.
I think pprune moderators would do everyone a favor if they would open a tread for all the klm basher for whatever the reason may be. And in this tread focus on everyone who is interested in applying.
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 491
From: Europe
All countries, all societies have their own attitudes towards foreigners, we Dutch are not worse or better than others in this regard. In fact I can name a few worse places to be in Europe, but I digress..
The thing to understand of our Dutch culture is this, and understanding this will save you a lot of frustration and misunderstanding: as Dutch we have somehow actually come to believe that we are an open and tolerant, non-racist society. That's how we present ourselves and that's how we interact with others, whether they agree or not. (I think you can see a bit of that in this discussion).
If you understand this as a foreigner, you will have a great time in the Netherlands. You just need a bit of patience and understanding sometimes when you hit that wall of tolerance. So if you are young and open of mind, do not let yourself be discouraged by what is written here. Use it to your advantage.
The thing to understand of our Dutch culture is this, and understanding this will save you a lot of frustration and misunderstanding: as Dutch we have somehow actually come to believe that we are an open and tolerant, non-racist society. That's how we present ourselves and that's how we interact with others, whether they agree or not. (I think you can see a bit of that in this discussion).
If you understand this as a foreigner, you will have a great time in the Netherlands. You just need a bit of patience and understanding sometimes when you hit that wall of tolerance. So if you are young and open of mind, do not let yourself be discouraged by what is written here. Use it to your advantage.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
You are cherry picking a little here.
Firstly, when the opportunity came to get a KLM contract it meant immediately leaving the pilots UK base and moving to an AMS base, either uprooting a family or a tiring commute, for many years. The UK bases were shut later. Secondly, learning Dutch wasn't a factor in any pilot's decision-making process. Thirdly, I don't know of any ex-KLM UK pilots who have yet enough seniority for Captain long haul.
By the way, I find your use of the word 'integrate', let's say, 'unfortunate' here. The very few UK pilots still on a UK contract operate to the same terms, conditions and standards as their Dutch colleagues do and are rostered the same. Typical problems they have had, occurring when their UK bases were shut, are the same problems their ex-colleagues faced.
Firstly, when the opportunity came to get a KLM contract it meant immediately leaving the pilots UK base and moving to an AMS base, either uprooting a family or a tiring commute, for many years. The UK bases were shut later. Secondly, learning Dutch wasn't a factor in any pilot's decision-making process. Thirdly, I don't know of any ex-KLM UK pilots who have yet enough seniority for Captain long haul.
By the way, I find your use of the word 'integrate', let's say, 'unfortunate' here. The very few UK pilots still on a UK contract operate to the same terms, conditions and standards as their Dutch colleagues do and are rostered the same. Typical problems they have had, occurring when their UK bases were shut, are the same problems their ex-colleagues faced.
These guys had a long term vision, which was right. And they didn’t even have to do a selection for that. Got free commuting, free Dutch course. Even a few years later the remaining pilots were given a second chance to join, albeit with a selection.
So either stay at your home base on the Fokker -as is- in this asset-stripping program of Air UK, or progress to KLM with one of the best conditions in Europe, where you have to commute (for free) but including all the career prospects including salary and longhaul flying.
I flew with UK pilots of both groups on the Fokker, saw the attitude of both of them. Especially, when the guys that chose not to take(!) the KLM contract saw they made the wrong decision in the long run.
Imagine me as a young F/O sitting next to these guys only being negative, complaining, not caring about the Dutch KLM F/O when flying in an all UK crew. I will never forget my first time in Humberside, after the last passenger got off and I completed the shutdown checklist, I looked around and the entire UK crew had left, without saying a word. Subsequently having to find my way out to the taxi by my self at 10pm without any info or help from the “colleagues” whose base it was. Talking about feeling included. Again, it is this entire playing the victim where the basis are your own choices.
And yes, these UK guys, that progressed to mainline, are onto their long haul command as we speak. Ask our great big smiley Nigerian friend from London that everybody loves (talking about inclusion).
Seniority captain longhaul is just below 22 years now and dropping. I believe within LH you can just become captain A320 by then…
I second Hank Moody’s suggestion; for KLM or Dutch bashing, open another topic. For pilots that would like to join us, me and my other colleagues here are happy to provide them with information and help to feel welcome within the blue family.
Last edited by Pander216; 10th January 2025 at 14:09.
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 49
Likes: 6
From: London
Trying to return to the topic of application/ joining.
Are you initially put onto shorthaul or longhaul? Or is there a choice when applying? Also as someone in their mid 30s, whats the gross salary more or less as I see there is an age factor to the salaries.
Thank you
Are you initially put onto shorthaul or longhaul? Or is there a choice when applying? Also as someone in their mid 30s, whats the gross salary more or less as I see there is an age factor to the salaries.
Thank you
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 11
From: EU
you should read this tread before asking question that has already been answered.
DE IS: FO 320/737/EMB/Second officer longhaul. You can’t not choose it depends on demand.
First year salary 35 year: 85.000k gross + 35.000k gross pension.
after 6/7 years 200K gross total
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 49
Likes: 6
From: London
you should read this tread before asking question that has already been answered.
DE IS: FO 320/737/EMB/Second officer longhaul. You can’t not choose it depends on demand.
First year salary 35 year: 85.000k gross + 35.000k gross pension.
after 6/7 years 200K gross total
DE IS: FO 320/737/EMB/Second officer longhaul. You can’t not choose it depends on demand.
First year salary 35 year: 85.000k gross + 35.000k gross pension.
after 6/7 years 200K gross total
Will go through the thread better but its hard when only 1% is related to actual contract and terms..
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 367
Likes: 81
From: Eu
IMHO this is an opportunity that should be grabbed with both hands . A fine company that respects and takes care of its employees, and no I am not Dutch nor do I work for KLM , but I had many old colleagues who did and who are now enjoying life on a very respectable pension .