Fly for KLM… no Dutch language required.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Belgium
In post #14 by drfaust suggested a company that helps you to prepare https://pilotentraining.nl (also in English), I can second that. I highly recommend this training in order to be fully prepared for the different recruitment stages (not easy). They helped a lot of Dutch pilots before and are fully aware of the process and difficulties.
The trainings are online by the way
All the best with the preparations !!
The trainings are online by the way
All the best with the preparations !!
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6
Likes: 2
From: eu
One year ago I joined the company after working with a few other airlines in Europe. My first general impression:
Cons:
As stated earlier in this topic, I can confirm there is indeed an ego problem within the ranks of KLM. Not only in the flightdeck, as you would expect, but even more in the cabin. Seniority really got to the head of some. If you are not used to the Dutch cockiness this could be a problem for you and take the pleasure out of your job.
Pros:
The T & C are simply to good and the union is strong. If you can handle the above, and learn Dutch quickly, go for it!
Cons:
As stated earlier in this topic, I can confirm there is indeed an ego problem within the ranks of KLM. Not only in the flightdeck, as you would expect, but even more in the cabin. Seniority really got to the head of some. If you are not used to the Dutch cockiness this could be a problem for you and take the pleasure out of your job.
Pros:
The T & C are simply to good and the union is strong. If you can handle the above, and learn Dutch quickly, go for it!
Joined: Dec 2017
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 67
Likes: 19
From: FL400
One year ago I joined the company after working with a few other airlines in Europe. My first general impression:
Cons:
As stated earlier in this topic, I can confirm there is indeed an ego problem within the ranks of KLM. Not only in the flightdeck, as you would expect, but even more in the cabin. Seniority really got to the head of some. If you are not used to the Dutch cockiness this could be a problem for you and take the pleasure out of your job.
Pros:
The T & C are simply to good and the union is strong. If you can handle the above, and learn Dutch quickly, go for it!
Cons:
As stated earlier in this topic, I can confirm there is indeed an ego problem within the ranks of KLM. Not only in the flightdeck, as you would expect, but even more in the cabin. Seniority really got to the head of some. If you are not used to the Dutch cockiness this could be a problem for you and take the pleasure out of your job.
Pros:
The T & C are simply to good and the union is strong. If you can handle the above, and learn Dutch quickly, go for it!
I worked many years in Transavia Netherlands, I was hired that I didn't speak any Dutch.
Dutch people tend to be very cockie, with strong ego and I hope that many of you understand me, they tend to be extremely impolite in their mannerism.
In the flight deck despite knowing you don't speak Dutch, they will keep talking in Dutch even if it is just you and the captain in the flight deck, sometimes they keep looking at you in the eyes and keep speaking Dutch..
Cabin crew used to be a real pain in the ass, very old arrogant pursers, and I totally agree with the comment above, these people think they are above everyone else, even above the captain.
Believe me in all these year flying I have seen bad things but nothing this bad.
All bulletins and company notams are in Dutch and I could not do copy paste to translate because things where presented in their system aviobook.
Line checks, sim session and ground training (CRM, safety, etc..) are essentially a joke, the guy stands there talking 2 words in English, the rest in Dutch.
Be prepared to be treated like a piece of ****, if you are a foreigner particularly if you are not ethnically aligned...
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: Many different places
I totally agree with your position,
I worked many years in Transavia Netherlands, I was hired that I didn't speak any Dutch.
Dutch people tend to be very cockie, with strong ego and I hope that many of you understand me, they tend to be extremely impolite in their mannerism.
In the flight deck despite knowing you don't speak Dutch, they will keep talking in Dutch even if it is just you and the captain in the flight deck, sometimes they keep looking at you in the eyes and keep speaking Dutch..
Cabin crew used to be a real pain in the ass, very old arrogant pursers, and I totally agree with the comment above, these people think they are above everyone else, even above the captain.
Believe me in all these year flying I have seen bad things but nothing this bad.
All bulletins and company notams are in Dutch and I could not do copy paste to translate because things where presented in their system aviobook.
Line checks, sim session and ground training (CRM, safety, etc..) are essentially a joke, the guy stands there talking 2 words in English, the rest in Dutch.
Be prepared to be treated like a piece of ****, if you are a foreigner particularly if you are not ethnically aligned...
I worked many years in Transavia Netherlands, I was hired that I didn't speak any Dutch.
Dutch people tend to be very cockie, with strong ego and I hope that many of you understand me, they tend to be extremely impolite in their mannerism.
In the flight deck despite knowing you don't speak Dutch, they will keep talking in Dutch even if it is just you and the captain in the flight deck, sometimes they keep looking at you in the eyes and keep speaking Dutch..
Cabin crew used to be a real pain in the ass, very old arrogant pursers, and I totally agree with the comment above, these people think they are above everyone else, even above the captain.
Believe me in all these year flying I have seen bad things but nothing this bad.
All bulletins and company notams are in Dutch and I could not do copy paste to translate because things where presented in their system aviobook.
Line checks, sim session and ground training (CRM, safety, etc..) are essentially a joke, the guy stands there talking 2 words in English, the rest in Dutch.
Be prepared to be treated like a piece of ****, if you are a foreigner particularly if you are not ethnically aligned...
Joined: Dec 2017
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 67
Likes: 19
From: FL400
To be honest, the language thing is likely to happen if joining any airline with a majority of single nationality/language workforce. It happens at my southern European base in a supposedly strictly English only airline. I am a native speaker of the local language and frequently find myself being the only one in the crew who tries to speak English when a non-local speaker is present…
In France is the same, pilot tend to speak only French and airlines hire only French. In Italy is the same, Germany(let's not even start), Switzerland etc.
I meant to give a word of caution to our colleagues above that think that having a strong contract is enough to join.
I really truly hope that people will listen when I am saying this, they will make your life a living nightmare.
At some point you will need something from the office, no one will be there for you.
At some point you will need the union, no one is there for you.
Things happen when flying, be it an unstable approach or severe turbolence, the narrative will always blame the foreigner, always.
People tend to criticize the middle east and asia a lot, when in reality the real **** is in our door step in Europe.
I decided to leave Transavia and join another low cost carrier for a similar salary package although there are many bad things here too I still think that I made the right choice to leave.
But I do understand those of you that have to apply for lack of other choices, but I hope that you do with your eyes fully open.
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 349
Likes: 20
From: egll
A while ago on some other thread here, someone said "there is a lot to be said for working with people from your own culture" (or something like that). The more experience I gain, the more I see they were very correct.
Even if you are from a European country but of a "minority" ethnicity, you will be OK in your national legacy because you speak the same language, grew up in the same country, you get the same humour etc etc. Also, I cannot say it with any certainty, but is there a possibility you will be treated as a guest if you joined KLM as a foreigner? (or AF as non French etc etc)
You will be on the same contract, having passed all selections, but, I cannot help feel you will be seen as an outsider to the company even though you have every right to the position that they do. You will be the odd one out. You may be 150 joining, but in a sea of thousands of pilots, you will be alone. Perhaps I am simply saying how I would feel and am wrong.
Even if you are from a European country but of a "minority" ethnicity, you will be OK in your national legacy because you speak the same language, grew up in the same country, you get the same humour etc etc. Also, I cannot say it with any certainty, but is there a possibility you will be treated as a guest if you joined KLM as a foreigner? (or AF as non French etc etc)
You will be on the same contract, having passed all selections, but, I cannot help feel you will be seen as an outsider to the company even though you have every right to the position that they do. You will be the odd one out. You may be 150 joining, but in a sea of thousands of pilots, you will be alone. Perhaps I am simply saying how I would feel and am wrong.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 69
Likes: 65
From: Manchester
I pointed that out as was shot down, funnily enough. People talk about egos but throw tantrums when someone disagrees with them on this forum, insult you and try to invalidate your experience. I totally agree with your point, flown with many dutch pilots, lived there too and this is only news to those who refuse to see. Either because of their socio-political biases or outright prejudices, but foreigners, whether blue colour or white colour, aren't made to feel very welcome right now there. That sentiment is shared across Europe actually and we should be ale to talk about it openly, without insults or being blocked because "you can't go against conservative pilots" apparently(so much for free speech warriors).
When it comes to CRM and attitudes, I experienced the same. At RYR and EZY they had a reputation, as much as Ozzie's have at EK. People can disagree with me but that's reality, that was my experience and you can't deny it. But then, my partner is dutch and I have a lot of love for the country, there are great things and for the right people, this could be an amazing opportunity. Just got with your eyes wide open, you need to be a certain type.
It is the same in my own country, they will speak our language to foreigners, will smile in your face but outright exclude you. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium etc you name it. I must say that the place I felt more open to different cultures in the flight deck was England(in my experience). But then, there's no language issue there as you would all speak English. I think is farcical to paint KLM and the Netherlands, as well as any other flag carrier in Europe as this utopia of multi-culturality and tolerance. None of them are, you learn the language and fit in or if not happy, leave. Unfortunately it is like that.
When it comes to CRM and attitudes, I experienced the same. At RYR and EZY they had a reputation, as much as Ozzie's have at EK. People can disagree with me but that's reality, that was my experience and you can't deny it. But then, my partner is dutch and I have a lot of love for the country, there are great things and for the right people, this could be an amazing opportunity. Just got with your eyes wide open, you need to be a certain type.
It is the same in my own country, they will speak our language to foreigners, will smile in your face but outright exclude you. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium etc you name it. I must say that the place I felt more open to different cultures in the flight deck was England(in my experience). But then, there's no language issue there as you would all speak English. I think is farcical to paint KLM and the Netherlands, as well as any other flag carrier in Europe as this utopia of multi-culturality and tolerance. None of them are, you learn the language and fit in or if not happy, leave. Unfortunately it is like that.
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 93
Likes: 45
From: Palm
I pointed that out as was shot down, funnily enough. People talk about egos but throw tantrums when someone disagrees with them on this forum, insult you and try to invalidate your experience. I totally agree with your point, flown with many dutch pilots, lived there too and this is only news to those who refuse to see. Either because of their socio-political biases or outright prejudices, but foreigners, whether blue colour or white colour, aren't made to feel very welcome right now there. That sentiment is shared across Europe actually and we should be ale to talk about it openly, without insults or being blocked because "you can't go against conservative pilots" apparently(so much for free speech warriors).
When it comes to CRM and attitudes, I experienced the same. At RYR and EZY they had a reputation, as much as Ozzie's have at EK. People can disagree with me but that's reality, that was my experience and you can't deny it. But then, my partner is dutch and I have a lot of love for the country, there are great things and for the right people, this could be an amazing opportunity. Just got with your eyes wide open, you need to be a certain type.
It is the same in my own country, they will speak our language to foreigners, will smile in your face but outright exclude you. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium etc you name it. I must say that the place I felt more open to different cultures in the flight deck was England(in my experience). But then, there's no language issue there as you would all speak English. I think is farcical to paint KLM and the Netherlands, as well as any other flag carrier in Europe as this utopia of multi-culturality and tolerance. None of them are, you learn the language and fit in or if not happy, leave. Unfortunately it is like that.
When it comes to CRM and attitudes, I experienced the same. At RYR and EZY they had a reputation, as much as Ozzie's have at EK. People can disagree with me but that's reality, that was my experience and you can't deny it. But then, my partner is dutch and I have a lot of love for the country, there are great things and for the right people, this could be an amazing opportunity. Just got with your eyes wide open, you need to be a certain type.
It is the same in my own country, they will speak our language to foreigners, will smile in your face but outright exclude you. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium etc you name it. I must say that the place I felt more open to different cultures in the flight deck was England(in my experience). But then, there's no language issue there as you would all speak English. I think is farcical to paint KLM and the Netherlands, as well as any other flag carrier in Europe as this utopia of multi-culturality and tolerance. None of them are, you learn the language and fit in or if not happy, leave. Unfortunately it is like that.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 154
Likes: 38
From: above Tranquility Base coming long
Sure a top notch company like KLM will manage to fill their seats with people who fit the environment. If I was young and KLM would suit me, I would put in the effort to learn Dutch, to observe what are the local customs, adapt and try to be just a number that never shows up in any special way, but delivers good work. Respect will follow.
I certainly would not expect to be acknowledged in my individual speciality. That is something for home.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 69
Likes: 65
From: Manchester
Why is that unfortunate? Sounds pretty normal to me, and I have no issues with that being normal.
Sure a top notch company like KLM will manage to fill their seats with people who fit the environment. If I was young and KLM would suit me, I would put in the effort to learn Dutch, to observe what are the local customs, adapt and try to be just a number that never shows up in any special way, but delivers good work. Respect will follow.
I certainly would not expect to be acknowledged in my individual speciality. That is something for home.
Sure a top notch company like KLM will manage to fill their seats with people who fit the environment. If I was young and KLM would suit me, I would put in the effort to learn Dutch, to observe what are the local customs, adapt and try to be just a number that never shows up in any special way, but delivers good work. Respect will follow.
I certainly would not expect to be acknowledged in my individual speciality. That is something for home.
We should treat each other with dignity, and If I see someone struggling with the language, I'd help them. I couldn't work in my own country because aviation there is for the "posh", lots of guys whose daddy is someone and that's why they got the job, yet go on about foreigners taking positions blabla. And they show these attitudes towards them too and I can't deal with this nonsense.
Yeah I see that, It can be a good opportunity for some.
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 39
Likes: 20
From: uk
Kinda sounded retorical..
But I can give an answer, it's unfortunate, because no matter how much money you earn, how shiny the jets are, it's really the people you work with that matter day to day.
If you're not included in conversation if your language is not quite up to scratch or you look a bit different, it will sting every time.
I would call that unfortunate, even if you'd call it 'normal', or is it 'normaal?'
But I can give an answer, it's unfortunate, because no matter how much money you earn, how shiny the jets are, it's really the people you work with that matter day to day.
If you're not included in conversation if your language is not quite up to scratch or you look a bit different, it will sting every time.
I would call that unfortunate, even if you'd call it 'normal', or is it 'normaal?'
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 261
Likes: 42
From: Europe
Kinda sounded retorical..
But I can give an answer, it's unfortunate, because no matter how much money you earn, how shiny the jets are, it's really the people you work with that matter day to day.
If you're not included in conversation if your language is not quite up to scratch or you look a bit different, it will sting every time.
I would call that unfortunate, even if you'd call it 'normal', or is it 'normaal?'
But I can give an answer, it's unfortunate, because no matter how much money you earn, how shiny the jets are, it's really the people you work with that matter day to day.
If you're not included in conversation if your language is not quite up to scratch or you look a bit different, it will sting every time.
I would call that unfortunate, even if you'd call it 'normal', or is it 'normaal?'
However flawed Dutch people may be, a lot of us are direct to the point of being considered rude in a lot of other places. You have to be able to take some and dish it back out as well. If you come from a place where that is not normal, there may be some adjustment required or a bit of a culture clash will follow. I have worked with all kinds of nationalities and some have more of a conflict avoiding attitude. They will internalize it, sulk about it, talk to others about it, but never to the person they had the conflict with. That will likely not work well with Dutch people.
Having been an expat for roughly 15 years, for me it has always been as good as you make it yourself. If you do not adapt, you will probably have a worse time. That goes for the Netherlands and KLM as well.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 154
Likes: 38
From: above Tranquility Base coming long
Yomama, you also did not answer my question.
For me it is normal to either fit in or move on. I don't expect the environment to adapt to me as a newbie. Again, why would that be considered unfortunate?
For me it is normal to either fit in or move on. I don't expect the environment to adapt to me as a newbie. Again, why would that be considered unfortunate?
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 96
Likes: 1
From: h&h
I would like to add that although Transavia NL is part of the same airline group, the company and flightdeck culture differ quite a bit from KLM mainline.
I have recently been working with many former TRA NL copilots who joined KLM in the past years, and they all say it's a breath of fresh air to have started working within KLM. Some examples they mentioned; CRM is better, relative low hierarchy within the crew. Smaller part of the day is used by the captain complaining about his labour conditions. Colleagues are still mostly Dutch (direct/cocky), but at the same time more open minded and curious. The quality of the training/trainers is better received, a pleasant atmosphere, not the feeling of being 'checked' all the time. The just culture works well, for example if you feel unfit, it feels 'safe' to report unfit.
Don't compare Transavia NL too much with KLM. I've heard numbers of about 80 FO's transferring companies only last year. It says quite a lot imho..
I have recently been working with many former TRA NL copilots who joined KLM in the past years, and they all say it's a breath of fresh air to have started working within KLM. Some examples they mentioned; CRM is better, relative low hierarchy within the crew. Smaller part of the day is used by the captain complaining about his labour conditions. Colleagues are still mostly Dutch (direct/cocky), but at the same time more open minded and curious. The quality of the training/trainers is better received, a pleasant atmosphere, not the feeling of being 'checked' all the time. The just culture works well, for example if you feel unfit, it feels 'safe' to report unfit.
Don't compare Transavia NL too much with KLM. I've heard numbers of about 80 FO's transferring companies only last year. It says quite a lot imho..
Last edited by reivilo; 29th January 2025 at 09:34.
short flights long nights
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,017
Likes: 327
I would like to add that although Transavia NL is part of the same airline group, the company and flightdeck culture differ quite a bit from KLM mainline.
I have recently been working with many of former copilots that left Transavia for KLM, and they all say it's a breath of fresh air to have started working within KLM. Some examples they mentioned; CRM is better, relative low hierarchy within the crew. Smaller part of the day is used by the captain complaining about his labour conditions. Colleagues are still mostly Dutch (direct/cocky), but at the same time more open minded and curious. The quality of the training/trainers is better received, a pleasant atmosphere, not the feeling of being 'checked' all the time. The just culture works well, for example if you feel unfit, it feels 'safe' to report unfit.
Don't compare Transavia NL too much with KLM. I've heard numbers of about 80 FO's transferring companies only last year. It says quite a lot imho..
I have recently been working with many of former copilots that left Transavia for KLM, and they all say it's a breath of fresh air to have started working within KLM. Some examples they mentioned; CRM is better, relative low hierarchy within the crew. Smaller part of the day is used by the captain complaining about his labour conditions. Colleagues are still mostly Dutch (direct/cocky), but at the same time more open minded and curious. The quality of the training/trainers is better received, a pleasant atmosphere, not the feeling of being 'checked' all the time. The just culture works well, for example if you feel unfit, it feels 'safe' to report unfit.
Don't compare Transavia NL too much with KLM. I've heard numbers of about 80 FO's transferring companies only last year. It says quite a lot imho..
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 39
Likes: 20
From: uk
This is unfortunate for KLM trying to attract foreigners and for foreigners not fully aware before signing the dotted line.
I honestly don't know how to turn that into a positive.