Fly for KLM… no Dutch language required.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
Within KLM Cityhopper the working Language has been changed 25 years ago to English, due to Air UK Integration. Even now in (online) meetings, manuals, all the documentation, training, the language is English. Even KLM is changing to that.
In all my time with KLC we always (!) spoke English if there was even one UK crewmember. I cannot remember of any UK flight- or cabin crew that made effort to learn a bit Dutch to have conversations. More so, there were UK people that did not want to shake hand „because it not being part of their culture“. So who had to adapt? Again, stop playing a victim, like the Netherlands is so hard. Indeed with that mindset you won‘t get very far. It is all up to you.
It is interesting that the Brits have this mindset, whereas the Norwegians that joined in the 90‘s all immediately learned dutch and integrated. Nowadays I can hardly see if a colleague is Norwegian, besides the name.
If you like to laugh, have fun, always find a reason to celebrate a first,- or last flight of a crewmember and make „Memorable Experiences“ then join. If you want to sit on your hotelroom and not integrate, then don‘t.
And yes, we are proud or our company. As said, it is not the golden sinks or 99 cent tickets that draw passengers. It is the genuine interest and going that one step further for our passengers, that give KLM the right to survive, coming from such a small home market.
Last edited by Pander216; 12th January 2025 at 11:16.
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 491
From: Europe
It is, the dutch are open minded, talkative, liberal and adapt to other cultures. If the Dutch are abroad, they adapt and mingle. However, if you come to the Netherlands and feel entiteld, not included, play the victim or whatever, then indeed the dutch will signal it and their directness will show. We don’t do b*****.
The Netherlands is a great place to work, KLM is a fantastic airline, and anyone remotely interested should take this opportunity seriously, but like always, there are caveats and those deserve to be discussed. And it could very well be that the Scandi’s adapt better than others, that’s an interesting topic, but it always works both ways..
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
I understand what you mean PENKO . That is the drawback of a flat organisational culture, the concept of “polderen”, rebelliousness against authority. Whereas it creates a very free society, where especially new hires are just as appreciated as long timers, sometimes it my come across as that someone “feels entitled”.
But there is no difference in respect to how that is among the Dutch themselves, or against foreigners. You just have to stand up for yourself. Might be confronting for someone who is not used to this, but when I work in Italy, I also don’t go and tell them when they are late, or the Germans about their concept of calling eachother “Sie”, until the most senior decides it is ok to call eachother with the first names.
I have worked in different cultures and honestly think the Dutch directness and flat hierarchy works best in our CRM based aviation context. As said, directness is only personal when you take it like that. Furthermore, working in a different culture and company offcourse requires some adjustment. You cannot expect 33.000 employees to completely adapt to a small minority.
But there is no difference in respect to how that is among the Dutch themselves, or against foreigners. You just have to stand up for yourself. Might be confronting for someone who is not used to this, but when I work in Italy, I also don’t go and tell them when they are late, or the Germans about their concept of calling eachother “Sie”, until the most senior decides it is ok to call eachother with the first names.
I have worked in different cultures and honestly think the Dutch directness and flat hierarchy works best in our CRM based aviation context. As said, directness is only personal when you take it like that. Furthermore, working in a different culture and company offcourse requires some adjustment. You cannot expect 33.000 employees to completely adapt to a small minority.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 7
From: Europe
The same applies in Spain, for instance—you never truly become one of them and will always remain an outsider. They have a deep love for their Spanish language and are unlikely to switch to English easily. This isn’t unique to KLM; it’s something you’ll find across Europe and even globally. Cultures differ, and even if you speak the language, it’s incredibly challenging to change the culture you were born and raised in.
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 491
From: Europe
Pander, your company is desperate for pilots and needs foreigners to fill the vacancies. How will you adapt to make sure multiple nationalities feel at home in your airline and not just those who respond the way you like or are used to? You may like your Dutch CRM but even the best CRM will break down of there is no adaptation from both sides.
Joined: Nov 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 512
Likes: 829
From: UK
Can we get back to the T&Cs, eligibility and requirements as well as life style, bases and career progression please?
Rather than bashing KLM and the Dutch who are the second oldest ally of the British after the Portuguese.
(Because of the way the water runs down through the North Sea into the English Channel - the water hits Holland first and then bounces across to East Anglia - anyway back to the topic).
Rather than bashing KLM and the Dutch who are the second oldest ally of the British after the Portuguese.
(Because of the way the water runs down through the North Sea into the English Channel - the water hits Holland first and then bounces across to East Anglia - anyway back to the topic).
Joined: Jan 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 4
From: Holland
Pander, your company is desperate for pilots and needs foreigners to fill the vacancies. How will you adapt to make sure multiple nationalities feel at home in your airline and not just those who respond the way you like or are used to? You may like your Dutch CRM but even the best CRM will break down of there is no adaptation from both sides.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
From: Cloud 9
Pander, your company is desperate for pilots and needs foreigners to fill the vacancies. How will you adapt to make sure multiple nationalities feel at home in your airline and not just those who respond the way you like or are used to? You may like your Dutch CRM but even the best CRM will break down of there is no adaptation from both sides.
Me personally, flying for KLM Cityhopper with UK crew for over 10 years and having flown abroad as well, I believe there should be no problem regarding CRM. If you have identified specific gaps in the CRM training regarding cultural differences, please let me know. Happy to forward them.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Well, not everything is seniority based. Your pay and position is. With KLM Cityhopper (I still believe) your annual leave is as well. However, they want to level this with KLM where annual leave is based on a handicap system.
Regarding standby/reserve, if you don’t bid on a reserve, it is equally allotted true all the pilots.
Roster is a rolling 4 weeks.
Within long haul there is a biding system that firstly goes on seniority, where 13 weeks before roster publication it is decided who had the most senior bid on a trip . However, for every allocated trip your “seniority” drops a bit, so that lower senior people get more chances.
Then, from 13 to 7 weeks before roster publication open flights can be “taken” on a first come-first serve base. When biding on such a flight, you immediately know if you got it.
Some people manage to create their entire schedule, knowing what you will do 3 months in advance.
On European flights (KLM/KLC), you can also bid on flights, guaranteed off etc. Especially the guaranteed off is not seniority based.
I think that KLM wants an EASA license. I am curious to see how transitioning licenses and medicals to the Dutch-CAA will go, looking e.g at GDPR rules. But time will tell.
Regarding standby/reserve, if you don’t bid on a reserve, it is equally allotted true all the pilots.
Roster is a rolling 4 weeks.
Within long haul there is a biding system that firstly goes on seniority, where 13 weeks before roster publication it is decided who had the most senior bid on a trip . However, for every allocated trip your “seniority” drops a bit, so that lower senior people get more chances.
Then, from 13 to 7 weeks before roster publication open flights can be “taken” on a first come-first serve base. When biding on such a flight, you immediately know if you got it.
Some people manage to create their entire schedule, knowing what you will do 3 months in advance.
On European flights (KLM/KLC), you can also bid on flights, guaranteed off etc. Especially the guaranteed off is not seniority based.
I think that KLM wants an EASA license. I am curious to see how transitioning licenses and medicals to the Dutch-CAA will go, looking e.g at GDPR rules. But time will tell.
Regarding the EASA license, I've contacted KLM HR in the past and back then they want a full EASA license before being considered for an interview. I believe according to EASA regulations you can work on a temporary validation for 1 or 2 years, while working towards the conversion. But I'm not sure if any airline in Europe ever uses this option.
Last edited by TheFlyinGeek; 13th January 2025 at 16:42.
Joined: May 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 108
Likes: 88
From: Somewhere at the Milky Way
That's great!
I just want to point out that working with Dutch people outside of the Netherlands, and working as a foreigner not speaking the language in a Dutch company, are not the same.
What I'm talking about here is best descibed by the following reddit posts that may reflect what you're in for if you try to live full time in the Netherlands as an expat:
"Commendable that you are going for this. I've been in NL for nearly 13 years, moved here from Eastern Europe.
I'm fluent in Dutch, studied here, working with Dutchies everyday.
You'll get accepted into the social life much, much more easily if you speak the language, BUT, and I might be unfairly throwing everyone under the same bus, you'll never be fully treated like other Dutchies.
There will always be that look, that one little comment to remind you who you aren't and where you came from. It's part of the "Western mentality", maybe a superiority complex, hidden deep within the nation. Who knows, but it's there, and if you know then you know.
Difficult to explain it without experiencing it first hand."
and
"I dont feel like a victim, so no, no such mentality here, just plain fact.
Dutch culture, being Germanic in nature is much colder and less open than one might expect from southern Europe or even Eastern Europe, which are more community oriented.
My comment about Western Superiority still stands. It is a part of the heritage which is something not easy to shake off, but I dont hold a grudge, I have no reason to.
But even after all these years, learning the language and doing my best to adapt ro Dutch society, all that hard work will only get me so far.
And this is not me complaining, it's just the way things are. As I've said before, if you know, you know."
it's from a subreddit called 'netherlands', where expats in the Netherlands discuss.
Again, just showing the full picture for someone moving to another country.
I just want to point out that working with Dutch people outside of the Netherlands, and working as a foreigner not speaking the language in a Dutch company, are not the same.
What I'm talking about here is best descibed by the following reddit posts that may reflect what you're in for if you try to live full time in the Netherlands as an expat:
"Commendable that you are going for this. I've been in NL for nearly 13 years, moved here from Eastern Europe.
I'm fluent in Dutch, studied here, working with Dutchies everyday.
You'll get accepted into the social life much, much more easily if you speak the language, BUT, and I might be unfairly throwing everyone under the same bus, you'll never be fully treated like other Dutchies.
There will always be that look, that one little comment to remind you who you aren't and where you came from. It's part of the "Western mentality", maybe a superiority complex, hidden deep within the nation. Who knows, but it's there, and if you know then you know.
Difficult to explain it without experiencing it first hand."
and
"I dont feel like a victim, so no, no such mentality here, just plain fact.
Dutch culture, being Germanic in nature is much colder and less open than one might expect from southern Europe or even Eastern Europe, which are more community oriented.
My comment about Western Superiority still stands. It is a part of the heritage which is something not easy to shake off, but I dont hold a grudge, I have no reason to.
But even after all these years, learning the language and doing my best to adapt ro Dutch society, all that hard work will only get me so far.
And this is not me complaining, it's just the way things are. As I've said before, if you know, you know."
it's from a subreddit called 'netherlands', where expats in the Netherlands discuss.
Again, just showing the full picture for someone moving to another country.
What you are saying will happen at any place you go in Europe, when you move no matter how hard you try to embrace the culture, you will always be the "other". But i think there are places like in Holland where they will appreciate that you took time and effort to try to embrace their way of living. Then you will have children and they will belong to the place as much as the others.
And this happens not only in Europe, in the States happens to, somebody moving from NY to be based at Dallas or Miami or the West Coast will always be the "other", and we are talking about the same country.
Now let's be practical, the crews at KLM will have to decide to fly with foreigners or to keep cancelling flights and loose passengers in favours of other companies who do not have such issues, and keep loosing money on their pockets to the point the airline has to close. Has happened before, Sabena and the others that came after that one comes to my mind. I am sure the Dutch people will be smart enough to swallow their pride and fly with foreigners, and they will appreciate if you try to learn their language and embrace their lifestyle, but as everywhere else. Ask the Brits that went to Hong Kong to fly for Cathay long time ago, the ones who stayed and were happy where the ones who really tried to understand and adopt the culture they were going to live in.
By the way, I still think that the Dutch are friendly, professional and great people. Might be I am lucky, whenever I travelled with KLM or Transavia or worked with a Dutch partner, always had smiles, a welcoming environment and memorable times. And this experience makes me to think seriously to apply for them.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 367
Likes: 81
From: Eu
It is, the dutch are open minded, talkative, liberal and adapt to other cultures. If the Dutch are abroad, they adapt and mingle. However, if you come to the Netherlands and feel entiteld, not included, play the victim or whatever, then indeed the dutch will signal it and their directness will show. We don’t do b*****.
Within KLM Cityhopper the working Language has been changed 25 years ago to English, due to Air UK Integration. Even now in (online) meetings, manuals, all the documentation, training, the language is English. Even KLM is changing to that.
In all my time with KLC we always (!) spoke English if there was even one UK crewmember. I cannot remember of any UK flight- or cabin crew that made effort to learn a bit Dutch to have conversations. More so, there were UK people that did not want to shake hand „because it not being part of their culture“. So who had to adapt? Again, stop playing a victim, like the Netherlands is so hard. Indeed with that mindset you won‘t get very far. It is all up to you.
It is interesting that the Brits have this mindset, whereas the Norwegians that joined in the 90‘s all immediately learned dutch and integrated. Nowadays I can hardly see if a colleague is Norwegian, besides the name.
If you like to laugh, have fun, always find a reason to celebrate a first,- or last flight of a crewmember and make „Memorable Experiences“ then join. If you want to sit on your hotelroom and not integrate, then don‘t.
And yes, we are proud or our company. As said, it is not the golden sinks or 99 cent tickets that draw passengers. It is the genuine interest and going that one step further for our passengers, that give KLM the right to survive, coming from such a small home market.
Within KLM Cityhopper the working Language has been changed 25 years ago to English, due to Air UK Integration. Even now in (online) meetings, manuals, all the documentation, training, the language is English. Even KLM is changing to that.
In all my time with KLC we always (!) spoke English if there was even one UK crewmember. I cannot remember of any UK flight- or cabin crew that made effort to learn a bit Dutch to have conversations. More so, there were UK people that did not want to shake hand „because it not being part of their culture“. So who had to adapt? Again, stop playing a victim, like the Netherlands is so hard. Indeed with that mindset you won‘t get very far. It is all up to you.
It is interesting that the Brits have this mindset, whereas the Norwegians that joined in the 90‘s all immediately learned dutch and integrated. Nowadays I can hardly see if a colleague is Norwegian, besides the name.
If you like to laugh, have fun, always find a reason to celebrate a first,- or last flight of a crewmember and make „Memorable Experiences“ then join. If you want to sit on your hotelroom and not integrate, then don‘t.
And yes, we are proud or our company. As said, it is not the golden sinks or 99 cent tickets that draw passengers. It is the genuine interest and going that one step further for our passengers, that give KLM the right to survive, coming from such a small home market.
By European standards it is no better than average.
It is important to note , I think , that no one cares about LGBTQ .. whatever ! Or advancements in breast feeding acceptance , or all women flight deck crews or full ethnic cockpit complements ( Surinam) . Nobody cares , they care about, salary, training , promotion prospects and general company atmosphere, which I think is probably fine .
You mentioned a scenario where a gay male f/a might come onto you and then make a joke about it ? Everybody laughs , ok how about if I make unwelcome advances as a straight male to a female f/a and persist in this behaviour . Is that funny ?
Your fake tolerance only goes so far it would seem , I.e intolerant of other people’s intolerance.
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 39
Likes: 20
From: uk
Agreed with most of that. Although the USA is such a melting pot, they are quite welcoming to foreigners, believe it or not. Inter-state even more so.
Hong Kong, as most expats there do not learn the language and mostly interact with a variety of expats, be it Australian, Canadian, English, German, Danish. everyone is from somewhere else so there's no feeling of not belonging as no one belongs there.
Same would go for the middle east.
Just so people are aware that this is not your typical expat job, you're expected to integrate at least by language, and that northern European culture (not just the dutch) is not as inclusive as the USA, or other expat communities.
I know, because I've been around.
It depends on the individual to make the most of what is possible.
As long as people applying are aware of the above, then they are best informed, before they set of on a Dutch 'adventure'.
Hong Kong, as most expats there do not learn the language and mostly interact with a variety of expats, be it Australian, Canadian, English, German, Danish. everyone is from somewhere else so there's no feeling of not belonging as no one belongs there.
Same would go for the middle east.
Just so people are aware that this is not your typical expat job, you're expected to integrate at least by language, and that northern European culture (not just the dutch) is not as inclusive as the USA, or other expat communities.
I know, because I've been around.
It depends on the individual to make the most of what is possible.
As long as people applying are aware of the above, then they are best informed, before they set of on a Dutch 'adventure'.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 11
From: EU
So judgmental , KLM is a good airline ,l , but much better for employees than customers .
By European standards it is no better than average.
It is important to note , I think , that no one cares about LGBTQ .. whatever ! Or advancements in breast feeding acceptance , or all women flight deck crews or full ethnic cockpit complements ( Surinam) . Nobody cares , they care about, salary, training , promotion prospects and general company atmosphere, which I think is probably fine .
You mentioned a scenario where a gay male f/a might come onto you and then make a joke about it ? Everybody laughs , ok how about if I make unwelcome advances as a straight male to a female f/a and persist in this behaviour . Is that funny ?
Your fake tolerance only goes so far it would seem , I.e intolerant of other people’s intolerance.
By European standards it is no better than average.
It is important to note , I think , that no one cares about LGBTQ .. whatever ! Or advancements in breast feeding acceptance , or all women flight deck crews or full ethnic cockpit complements ( Surinam) . Nobody cares , they care about, salary, training , promotion prospects and general company atmosphere, which I think is probably fine .
You mentioned a scenario where a gay male f/a might come onto you and then make a joke about it ? Everybody laughs , ok how about if I make unwelcome advances as a straight male to a female f/a and persist in this behaviour . Is that funny ?
Your fake tolerance only goes so far it would seem , I.e intolerant of other people’s intolerance.
very true. KLM has taken DEI way to far. Thats what the majority of the pilots think and feel. The topic is almost the standard conversation in the flightdeck nowadays. Like how we dislike DEI gone to far! Our CEO has been more busy with DEI than with running the airline. Rumor goes that Paris wont give her a extension of her contract.
back on topic now.
In less than a week more than 100+ suitable candidates have applied. So the question is not why you should pick KLM. But why should klm pick you. Its very simple if you dont like, dont apply. Just move on. Life is simple.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 206
Likes: 20
From: DSOTM
Agreed with most of that. Although the USA is such a melting pot, they are quite welcoming to foreigners, believe it or not. Inter-state even more so.
Hong Kong, as most expats there do not learn the language and mostly interact with a variety of expats, be it Australian, Canadian, English, German, Danish. everyone is from somewhere else so there's no feeling of not belonging as no one belongs there.
Same would go for the middle east.
Just so people are aware that this is not your typical expat job, you're expected to integrate at least by language, and that northern European culture (not just the dutch) is not as inclusive as the USA, or other expat communities.
I know, because I've been around.
It depends on the individual to make the most of what is possible.
As long as people applying are aware of the above, then they are best informed, before they set of on a Dutch 'adventure'.
Hong Kong, as most expats there do not learn the language and mostly interact with a variety of expats, be it Australian, Canadian, English, German, Danish. everyone is from somewhere else so there's no feeling of not belonging as no one belongs there.
Same would go for the middle east.
Just so people are aware that this is not your typical expat job, you're expected to integrate at least by language, and that northern European culture (not just the dutch) is not as inclusive as the USA, or other expat communities.
I know, because I've been around.
It depends on the individual to make the most of what is possible.
As long as people applying are aware of the above, then they are best informed, before they set of on a Dutch 'adventure'.
This is not an expat job and the nature of it is that you will be expected to at least learn the language. That said it will be easy for English speakers to work here and it will take two to tango especially in the beginning. Most people are used to English speakers in their daily life that it just doesn’t matter much. My kids go to primary school and we need about 7 languages to coordinate a playdate, it’s just not a thing here.
Why do you think the reaction from the KLM side has been strong in this thread? The suggestions made are rather bloody offensive is why.
I refute strongly and without reservation the racist, classist, sexist, fascist and non inclusive characterizations leveled here earlier. I’m talking about The Netherlands here as a whole, not only about KLM. This is not a perfect country and sure it has its issues, I shall however not be lectured by people on some high horse in the middle east talking about discrimination and inclusivity. People die there every day for their comfort and convenience to make that classy expat lifestyle work. Piss off, don’t apply, we won’t miss you here.
As I said earlier anyone that is 30 and younger with sound mind and an EASA ATPL has a golden opportunity to get on what is likely the second best contract in Europe, right behind Air France. They will be most welcome and appreciated colleagues, that I can guarantee.
If however one feels they are joining a dinosaur company only populated by elite blonde haired and blue eyed sexist and classist racists, please stay away. We need you like a farmer needs a toothache.
Last edited by drfaust; 13th January 2025 at 06:48.
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 349
Likes: 20
From: egll
very true. KLM has taken DEI way to far. Thats what the majority of the pilots think and feel. The topic is almost the standard conversation in the flightdeck nowadays. Like how we dislike DEI gone to far! Our CEO has been more busy with DEI than with running the airline. Rumor goes that Paris wont give her a extension of her contract.
back on topic now.
In less than a week more than 100+ suitable candidates have applied. So the question is not why you should pick KLM. But why should klm pick you. Its very simple if you dont like, dont apply. Just move on. Life is simple.
back on topic now.
In less than a week more than 100+ suitable candidates have applied. So the question is not why you should pick KLM. But why should klm pick you. Its very simple if you dont like, dont apply. Just move on. Life is simple.
This is good, more chance for the rest of us.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 99
Likes: 4
From: U.K
It started about 20 years ago but continued for another roughly 15!
I just popped a question on, Mersey View put a link on so you could make up your own minds with a little “homework”
Nowhere is perfect but go in with open eyes.
The U.K. guys were in a totally different position to what is being offered now,
They were working for a company that were assimilated into KLM, I think the Transavia guys although Dutch were treated in a similar fashion.
One posting says they need the extra pilots as many work part time, again do your homework. Why have they gone part time especially in Cityhopper. Rosters maybe?
Hey companies change, maybe KLM has. Maybe the Dutch have also and as non Dutch non Dutch speaking pilot you may be welcomed with open arms.
Sign on the dotted line and post on here in a couple of years and let us know how things turned out.