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Virgin Recruiting

Old 28th Jul 2023, 07:01
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telekon
Everyone who is a UK passport holder and has a basic grasp of how labour supply affects wages maybe?
You think all the UAE nationals are up in arms because they let outsiders in? EK still one of the best paid gigs around if you can face it.

Every single industry in the UK allows foreign nationals to obtain sponsorship if they have the right skills and salary, but itís quite a lot of effort for the companies involved to do, so most are put off from doing so.

To keep it Virgin relevant, BALPAís crusade at the moment is for more days off, longer rest periods and more pilots operating on longer flights, which can all be achieved much easier in an expanding airline with more pilots in the company. Even BA (supposedly the be all and end all of British aviation) is struggling to find qualified pilots to fill their ranks, so outside of your xenophobia you canít blame them for looking down a different path to fill the spots. Take it up with the government.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 08:28
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Interesting you mention the UAE, given its clear and overt bias in favouring nationals over immigrants in the labour market there (Emiratisation). You are correct at least in pointing out that the problem lies with the UK government for its complicity in allowing the undercutting of locals.

I don't blame Virgin for acting in its own interests to try and suppress labour costs but suspect (and hope) that thanks to regulatory divergence from EASA their search for UK licenced foreigners will be largely fruitless.

15 years ago, US pilots were sleeping in crash pads and cars parked at the end of the runway. It has always been a mostly closed labour market there and now it's staring to bite. Look at the situation there today. Do you think such wages would exist if the whole world was eligible for E-3 visas?

Opening to the world will only serve to jeopardise any serious rise in T&C's in the UK and must be opposed vehemently.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 09:13
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Comparing the UK to the US is apples and oranges. Thereís never been an hours requirement to enter the airlines in the UK and as such when youíre giving 200 hour cadets jet experience then thereís never going to be a shortage of jet qualified pilots to go to the large carriers. The difference is that unions over there actually get the job done and companies are interested in holding onto skilled workers.

The Emirati locals might get preferential treatment when it comes to redundancies etc. Donít think that the same wouldnít happen in Virgin. Foreign hires are more expensive to the company because of the manpower required to get the company in a position to be able to sponsor them. Any sign of downturn and Iím sure it will be sorry we no longer can sponsor your visa, out you go.

Virgin will pay the successful applicants the same rate as UK pilots, so I donít know where you think this new cheap labour pay scale is coming from. Itís a collective agreement. As I say itís down to BALPA to actually negotiate a salary and QOL that retains their crews. They should be starting with at least 15% since the airline moved from 750 hour contracts to 900. Still cheaper than their Delta counterparts who got an effective 18% this year.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 12:21
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seosan
Comparing the UK to the US is apples and oranges. Thereís never been an hours requirement to enter the airlines in the UK and as such when youíre giving 200 hour cadets jet experience then thereís never going to be a shortage of jet qualified pilots to go to the large carriers. The difference is that unions over there actually get the job done and companies are interested in holding onto skilled workers.

The Emirati locals might get preferential treatment when it comes to redundancies etc. Donít think that the same wouldnít happen in Virgin. Foreign hires are more expensive to the company because of the manpower required to get the company in a position to be able to sponsor them. Any sign of downturn and Iím sure it will be sorry we no longer can sponsor your visa, out you go.

Virgin will pay the successful applicants the same rate as UK pilots, so I donít know where you think this new cheap labour pay scale is coming from. Itís a collective agreement. As I say itís down to BALPA to actually negotiate a salary and QOL that retains their crews. They should be starting with at least 15% since the airline moved from 750 hour contracts to 900. Still cheaper than their Delta counterparts who got an effective 18% this year.
You still donít get it do you.

Supply vs Demand. If Virgin donít think they have a slightest hint of a recruitment and retention issue then they wonít give a pay rise, why would they. They have less of an issue if they have access to a much larger labour market, many of whom would be delighted to work for barely half of what a virgin pilot makes when compared to their home countries.

UK pilots canít work in the EU anymore, the playing fields are tipped against UK pilots if EU pilots can work in the uk.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 13:39
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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I would say the necessity of having a UK license is a big barrier for most EU Nationals/EASA licensed pilots.

I guess few experienced pilots would be willing to go through all the hassle of doing 13 theory exams (again) + medical + LST in simulator + bureaucracy + costs in order to have a UK license and apply for Virgin.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 13:44
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.caa.co.uk/commercial-ind...-january-2023/


Route 6 for a current EASA holder - no need to do theory again, so with a valid TR not too much to do to get a uk licence.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 13:45
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seosan
You think all the UAE nationals are up in arms because they let outsiders in? EK still one of the best paid gigs around if you can face it.

Every single industry in the UK allows foreign nationals to obtain sponsorship if they have the right skills and salary, but itís quite a lot of effort for the companies involved to do, so most are put off from doing so.

To keep it Virgin relevant, BALPAís crusade at the moment is for more days off, longer rest periods and more pilots operating on longer flights, which can all be achieved much easier in an expanding airline with more pilots in the company. Even BA (supposedly the be all and end all of British aviation) is struggling to find qualified pilots to fill their ranks, so outside of your xenophobia you canít blame them for looking down a different path to fill the spots. Take it up with the government.

Considering you mention the UAE would you support a special allowance for British pilots and a different pension scheme as well as other benefits not available to pilots coming on a work visa? Unless itís changed since I was there that is what they get to keep them happy. Opening up work visas is to the detriment of British pilots and should be challenged by BALPA.
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Old 28th Jul 2023, 13:46
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VariablePitchP
UK pilots can’t work in the EU anymore, the playing fields are tipped against UK pilots if EU pilots can work in the uk.
Can't really march out that sob story when it's what the UK pop voted for. If you think about it logically the reason they're advertising for non-UK only on the Boeing is that I imagine many Boeing rated bods came from FR, who are all on EASA licences and, since Brexit, a large portion on EU passports. This recruitment opens the door to a large pool of rated pilots who up until a few years ago would've had the right to apply anyway. It's only EU nationals, it's not like the supply line has grown outside of the realm that it was before COVID. The UK CAA also made it considerably easier for pilots to make the conversion between EASA than they did on the continent. Looking forward to your picket at Aviation House regarding that one.

You can't improve T&Cs without having enough bodies to cover the schedule in the way that you want (more heavy crewed trips, more days off etc). It's a negotiation, you have to give to get. It's BALPA who dropped the ball letting this happen in the first place.

Originally Posted by roll_over
Considering you mention the UAE would you support a special allowance for British pilots and a different pension scheme as well as other benefits not available to pilots coming on a work visa?.
Isn't the irony in this that if the company hired non-UK citizens on a different pension scheme, with no private healthcare etc, that you'd be up in arms about how the T&Cs were diminishing? I take on board that the UAE was not the perfect example, what with govt owned and run airline, no union etc.
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Old 30th Jul 2023, 20:33
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seosan
Can't really march out that sob story when it's what the UK pop voted for. If you think about it logically the reason they're advertising for non-UK only on the Boeing is that I imagine many Boeing rated bods came from FR, who are all on EASA licences and, since Brexit, a large portion on EU passports. This recruitment opens the door to a large pool of rated pilots who up until a few years ago would've had the right to apply anyway. It's only EU nationals, it's not like the supply line has grown outside of the realm that it was before COVID. The UK CAA also made it considerably easier for pilots to make the conversion between EASA than they did on the continent. Looking forward to your picket at Aviation House regarding that one.

You can't improve T&Cs without having enough bodies to cover the schedule in the way that you want (more heavy crewed trips, more days off etc). It's a negotiation, you have to give to get. It's BALPA who dropped the ball letting this happen in the first place.



Isn't the irony in this that if the company hired non-UK citizens on a different pension scheme, with no private healthcare etc, that you'd be up in arms about how the T&Cs were diminishing? I take on board that the UAE was not the perfect example, what with govt owned and run airline, no union etc.
...to be brutally honest, I don't think the Virgin management have opened this avenue up for EU pilots in order to improve terms and conditions at Virgin in the future! Lets not politik this situation when there is no need!

The fact is, in my very humble opinion, that VAA is very definately not the employer of choice that it once was. It can't attract UK pilots because of this, and is so forced to look elsewhere. It really is as simple as that.

I feel fairly qualified to state the above as a long serving ex-VAA Captain who was unceremoniously made redundant out of seniority during their "shake up" of terms and conditions to retrograde permanent new ones that are quoted above in this thread. There are a significant number of us (most with decades of service dutifully done to get that LH command at the "best gig in UK") that are taking them to court for all sorts of unsavoury discriminative reasons. The six week hearing starts in February.

Even their "star" instagram sensation TRE is off to the High Court shortly to allegedly face accusations of some pretty nasty career-ending defamations made to bosses of colleagues.

They made their bed with a very oportunistic response to Covid that was also very much an outlier compared to other airlines at the time.

....it is certainly worth thinking if you want to lie in that particular bed?

As for working out your time to command etc - well, just factor in that it counts for NOTHING at Virgin when the axe falls. Our stories are true testament to that.
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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 16:12
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NAT Zulu
...to be brutally honest, I don't think the Virgin management have opened this avenue up for EU pilots in order to improve terms and conditions at Virgin in the future! Lets not politik this situation when there is no need!

The fact is, in my very humble opinion, that VAA is very definately not the employer of choice that it once was. It can't attract UK pilots because of this, and is so forced to look elsewhere. It really is as simple as that.

I feel fairly qualified to state the above as a long serving ex-VAA Captain who was unceremoniously made redundant out of seniority during their "shake up" of terms and conditions to retrograde permanent new ones that are quoted above in this thread. There are a significant number of us (most with decades of service dutifully done to get that LH command at the "best gig in UK") that are taking them to court for all sorts of unsavoury discriminative reasons. The six week hearing starts in February.

Even their "star" instagram sensation TRE is off to the High Court shortly to allegedly face accusations of some pretty nasty career-ending defamations made to bosses of colleagues.

They made their bed with a very oportunistic response to Covid that was also very much an outlier compared to other airlines at the time.

....it is certainly worth thinking if you want to lie in that particular bed?

As for working out your time to command etc - well, just factor in that it counts for NOTHING at Virgin when the axe falls. Our stories are true testament to that.

how come you didnít return to VAA? Surely everyone got their jobs back?
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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 20:22
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eagerbeaver1
how come you didnít return to VAA? Surely everyone got their jobs back?

No they didn't! They keep that pretty quiet. Probably on account of a good number of them taking them to court over the issue.

...others elected not to return. That should tell you something too!
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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 21:33
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And some who stayed on during the covid debacle have elected to leave since the creation of Virgin 2.0, which also speaks volumes....
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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 22:36
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Iím very very sorry to learn that.
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Old 3rd Aug 2023, 05:43
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like the management are as despicable as BA ! Maybe more so . Didnt think that was possible
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Old 3rd Aug 2023, 07:09
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It has certainly been a very rough three years for some of us! But it all comes out in February when the six week hearing commences. Some of it even beforehand this year in the High Court.

I believe there are hundreds of similar claims ongoing concurrently for cabin crew too.

....they don't put that in the adverts.
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Old 4th Aug 2023, 10:34
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Shades of the Forty-Niners ...

...
how come you didnít return to VAA? Surely everyone got their jobs back?
I was told a while back that VAA management managed to arrange for a number of 'undesirable' or trouble-maker pilots who they'd previously made redundant, to fail their re-hiring interviews. Shades of the CX Forty-Niners.

I'll ask our tame Virgin mate for clarification tonight, (if he's in the pub.)
Good luck with the court cases - keep us posted please ?

LFH
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Old 4th Aug 2023, 10:42
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Originally Posted by Lordflasheart
...


I was told a while back that VAA management managed to arrange for a number of 'undesirable' or trouble-maker pilots who they'd previously made redundant, to fail their re-hiring interviews. Shades of the CX Forty-Niners.

I'll ask our tame Virgin mate for clarification tonight, (if he's in the pub.)
Good luck with the court cases - keep us posted please ?

LFH
This.

Add trade union reps to that list, although it probably falls into the "undesireable" category.
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Old 4th Aug 2023, 15:25
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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Balpa reps screwing over fellow pilots - surely not!
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Old 4th Aug 2023, 19:11
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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On another topic,

Has anyone been through the cut-e tests at Zenon lately. Would appreciate some info, thank you.

Cheers
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Old 5th Aug 2023, 07:17
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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undesirables and trouble-makers

Balpa reps screwing over fellow pilots - surely not !
I think you may have misunderstood -

I think Nat meant - Trade Union Reps were top of management's wish-list of undesirables and trouble-makers who were not wanted back - so they had to 'fail' their re-hiring interviews. If true - thats a black-list offence under labour relations law.

There's probably a long queue of Subject Access Requests as a result - https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/yo...-of-your-data/ - while the shredding department works overtime.

Our Virgin mate wasn't in the pub last night - seems he got clobbered for an extra trip.

LFH
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