IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[Chief Willy]

Originally Posted by balpalover69

I mean I feel bitter at the utter nepotism and lack of integrity from the BACC. As I said. I left a firm that made 0 redundancy (not easy but similar) thinking that this was going to be a safe job. Even going back, I know that when it comes to it. I’m the 1st to be thrown under the bus (again)….

I mean I’m struggling to sympathise with the ‘I dodged redundancy by a few places, now I want the seat I want, potentially at the disadvantage to my (ex) colleagues who in a lot of cases haven’t earned any money (or very little) in the last 2 years.

Some of us who are at the top of the PRP now face a new 7 (or8) year freeze before looking at long haul if we return on the a320, delaying a long haul move 10 years from where it was expected. So as I said, I wouldn’t come here seeking sympathy.

Whilst I have the utmost of sympathy for you: That’s BA. You know the deal now. It’s rubbish if you are junior. The way you were turfed out was deeply unpleasant. But at the end of the day it is a seniority based airline, get used to it and stop trying to change it.

In all likelihood the other airlines will probably start recruiting about the same time BA do from the PRP into mainline so you hopefully will have a choice with where to go. I genuinely hope and pray these opportunities are only a few months away for everyone in your dreadful situation.

As for the comments about 320 FO stagnation etc I gather “normal” PnP rules and processes will start again later this year, no more “leapfrogging”. I think anyone in the 320 RHS can forget about getting on the 787 though as due to the way redundancy was handled in 2020 I expect there to be an exodus of senior pilots from the “at risk” 777 and 380 fleets onto the “safe” 787 and 350 fleets first, but this should open up positions on the 777 and 380 fleets for those 320 pilots who are happy with the risks of going on those 2 older fleets. The 350 will probably drop a bit more junior though as its an Airbus and I cant see too many 777 pilots wanting to slide over to that fleet.

Bon chance all and I hope by this time next year the PRP and PHP will have all had the opportunity to rejoin BA again.

[thetimesreader84]

Further up the thread someone mentioned mass resignations from BALPA members, well if rumours are true its happening. So much so they had to have a hearts & minds zoom call with remaining P32L members.

I didn't watch it (I wasn't invited) but from what I've heard it can be summed up as "you're behind CRS, then probably PRP (we haven't decided but BA hold the purse strings & won't pay for two courses) so you won't be going anywhere for 5-7 years, oh and we can't do anything to help your lifestyle beyond tinkering with JSS, please don't cancel your subs".

And for those talking about MoA, and redundancy, in my opinion it stopped applying when people on the 787 who didn't even have their uniform were saved in preference to junior 320 mates.

BA call the shots, balpa try to find a way to sell it to their (increasingly senior, LH) members.

[Chief Willy]

Originally Posted by Time Traveller

... which smacks of, let's say, excluding women from men only clubs because that's how it always was in the past, so it shouldn't be changed.

Seniority is borderline, if not outright illegal (especially the open ended way in which BA implements it).

What makes you think that it is illegal? There is nothing more predictable in BA than the latest batch of DEPs moaning about seniority, to only a few years later (with a bit of seniority) later changing tack and supporting seniority. If you don’t like it or understand it, please go to another airline.

[Time Traveller]

BALPA know it already - sotto voce, they admit as much.

[Plastic787]

Point of order. Seniority is not illegal as a method of determining redundancies however it must not be used as the sole factor. There’s a big difference. Hence how the redundancies were carried out perfectly legally. I said this was a discussion I didn’t want to get into and yet I have. I’ve lost the best job I will ever have in aviation through redundancy determined by seniority. Didn’t argue it, because redundancy is awful no matter how it is selected. The methodology in place will always be arguable, seniority however is as transparent as it gets and was part of the small print when I bought the ticket.

[Plastic787]

Originally Posted by Time Traveller

Edit - and BA is a very very long way from the best job in aviation

That certainly wasn’t a reference to BA.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Originally Posted by Chief Willy

What makes you think that it is illegal? There is nothing more predictable in BA than the latest batch of DEPs moaning about seniority, to only a few years later (with a bit of seniority) later changing tack and supporting seniority. If you don’t like it or understand it, please go to another airline.

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.

[Chief Willy]

Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.

I actually agree with a lot of that, seniority systems help to suppress wages for sure. Your seniority number has a £ value at the end of the day. But the issue now is how would you introduce a new system now into an airline like BA without there being many “losers” in the fallout? Also there is the added issue of job (in)security. Who in their right mind would bid for a 777/380/LGW command in a non-seniority system knowing in the very next downturn their job is toast? Seniority has major flaws but also brings with it some element of security. Sadly that means those at the bottom of the list in this, the biggest of all industry downturns ever, have had some dreadfully s****y bad luck and an unimaginably awful couple of years. There’s no perfect system and no nice way to deal with downturns/redundancies at the end of the day.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Originally Posted by Chief Willy

I actually agree with a lot of that, seniority systems help to suppress wages for sure. Your seniority number has a £ value at the end of the day. But the issue now is how would you introduce a new system now into an airline like BA without there being many “losers” in the fallout? Also there is the added issue of job (in)security. Who in their right mind would bid for a 777/380/LGW command in a non-seniority system knowing in the very next downturn their job is toast? Seniority has major flaws but also brings with it some element of security. Sadly that means those at the bottom of the list in this, the biggest of all industry downturns ever, have had some dreadfully s****y bad luck and an unimaginably awful couple of years. There’s no perfect system and no nice way to deal with downturns/redundancies at the end of the day.

Well exactly. To introduce a new system would either have to be short dramatic and painful or overtime and painful.

Should redundancies be done by performance? How do you measure that. What ever method is used pros and cons can be attached. No seniority with everyone’s head on the block can mean the bad eggs get removed.

What ever method is chosen people will suffer, it’s horrible.

Like you have said no perfect system is out there. Seniority does have benefits and in a situation like COVID last in first out can seem fair. BA didn’t really do that for COVID though did they. I know a few guys personally who got the ****ty end of the stick, despite seeing peeps joining over 12 months after them but on to the “protected” fleet. BA made a mess of that one IMO and it’s going to be sore for a while.

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.

so why didn’t this work for all the non Seniority airlines out there? Afaik in the U.K., only Virgin and BA are legacy seniority airlines; why isn’t your hypothesis playing out between wizz Ryan and easy?

[balpalover69]

Originally Posted by 3Greens

so why didn’t this work for all the non Seniority airlines out there? Afaik in the U.K., only Virgin and BA are legacy seniority airlines; why isn’t your hypothesis playing out between wizz Ryan and easy?

Pre covid BA was a £20k type rating with a circa 25k salary for cadets (correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the figures are round about here) and Ryanair was sponsoring type ratings (€5K to the applicant) and paying around £50k upwards for UK bases for FO’s (albeit on completion of 500h flying)


This is before you consider any cadets that joined BA during the last 4 years are actually being paid £0 now.

[MonarchOrBust]

I'm pretty sure the cadet salary was 28k back in the year 2000!

[Whitemonk Returns]

Jobs in the UK I would take before going to BA...

TUI, Virgin, Jet2, Easy and... Ryanair. Many of them will start recruiting in the next few months.
Theres probably a few more I'm forgetting

[Plastic787]

Originally Posted by Chief Willy

due to the way redundancy was handled in 2020 I expect there to be an exodus of senior pilots from the “at risk” 777 and 380 fleets onto the “safe” 787 and 350 fleets first, but this should open up positions on the 777 and 380 fleets for those 320 pilots who are happy with the risks of going on those 2 older fleets.

A lot of the more senior pilots from the 747 and A380 fleets got moves to other fleets so I don’t see why it’s a necessity that they bail now from the 777 and A380. Ultimately no one with the required seniority to avoid the chop from the jumbo lost their job (there were huge negative financial impacts I grant you but no redundancy) so the proof will be in the pudding but if there is some impact I suspect that to be fairly short lived. The thing that really did for the jumbo guys and girls was that they had nowhere to go in short order, it was long course everywhere they looked. God forbid the same situation occurred in a couple of years time the A380 pilots can CCQ onto the A350 or even the A320 in a pinch. The 777 pilots have the 787 on their Type Ratings so that’s another short course. I would argue the case that the 777 really is another at risk fleet, some of the 300s are amongst the newest aircraft in the airline - is the only aircraft after the A380 with any significant capacity - and the 777-9 (providing certification issues resolved and the small matter of paying for them) is arriving in 2024/25. To me the only fleet that looks dodgy is the A380 and that’s on nowhere near the scale of the 747 due to the short course situation.

[TheAirMission]

Originally Posted by Plastic787

Ultimately no one from the jumbo lost their job (there were huge negative financial impacts I grant you but no redundancy) so the proof will be in the pudding but if there is some impact I suspect that to be fairly short lived.

You're joking, right? Lots of 747 junior First Officers lost their jobs through redundancy, the fact they were on the Jumbo was just a coincidence, their seniority number was in the chop.

[Alrosa]

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns

Jobs in the UK I would take before going to BA...

TUI, Virgin, Jet2, Easy and... Ryanair. Many of them will start recruiting in the next few months.
Theres probably a few more I'm forgetting

That’s fair enough, but let’s also agree that this is a subjective discussion, and dependent on the individual and what they want out of flying.

I suspect when BA start recruiting externals (outside current pools) some people will still be interested. Admittedly that could be some way off, but I’m just making a point !

[BAreject]

Originally Posted by Plastic787

Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

All this talk about redundancies is tosh. No redundancies were ever needed. The whole thing was a farce. You can bang on about this all day long but the fact is, 249 junior (non 787/350/ex cityflyer/destined for 787 but currently without course date....) members were let down by the BACC in their hour of need. They orchestrated a plan to save their own bacon. What they should have been focusing on was solidarity and coming up with a plan to save their most vulnerable.

[Chief Willy]

Originally Posted by BAreject

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

All this talk about redundancies is tosh. No redundancies were ever needed. The whole thing was a farce. You can bang on about this all day long but the fact is, 249 junior (non 787/350/ex cityflyer/destined for 787 but currently without course date....) members were let down by the BACC in their hour of need. They orchestrated a plan to save their own bacon. What they should have been focusing on was solidarity and coming up with a plan to save their most vulnerable.

The BACC did try and save everyone. And every BA pilot I spoke to would have happily paid more to save everyone. You need to vent your anger at BA. BA seemed to want forced redundancies for reasons I will never understand.

Many in BA would argue that you are the entitled one, wanting a direct spot on a nice new 787 rather than “doing your time” on the 320 fleet like those who have given years of service to BA already.

[Plastic787]

Originally Posted by BAreject

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

says the guy wanting to skip the queue of over 200 FOs who’ve done their time on SH and been patiently waiting 6+ years. It sucks that you got made redundant I’d never tell you otherwise but that does not give you the right to trample all over my career aspirations and disadvantage me and plenty of others on your way back in. You can backfill my seat on SH thanks and if you don’t want it then you can’t be that desperate for a job after all.

[Plastic787]

Originally Posted by TheAirMission

You're joking, right? Lots of 747 junior First Officers lost their jobs through redundancy, the fact they were on the Jumbo was just a coincidence, their seniority number was in the chop.

what I meant by that is they didn’t lose their job because they were on the 747 but senior enough to avoid the chop otherwise. Just like the 150 Airbus FOs and 70+ that were made redundant from the 777 didn’t lose their jobs on the basis of fleet either.