IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
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Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
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Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.
Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
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Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.
Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
hopefully bluer skies ahead for all
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Hearing rumours that the CRS is all coursed and there may be external recruitment before the start of summer for early autumn courses - can anyone at BA or in the PRP confirm?
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Love the optimism, but I can clarify that will not be the case. CRS looking likely to be empty by the end of May with the PRP next in line to be drained. Please don’t forget that after than there’s another hold pool ‘PHP’ of those pilots and cadets who signed contracts that never started.
So recruitment for those ‘new-external’ DEPs is not just around the corner. Sorry.
I wish it was, that way I’d get my job back sooner!
So recruitment for those ‘new-external’ DEPs is not just around the corner. Sorry.
I wish it was, that way I’d get my job back sooner!
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What I meant was, they've exhausted all internal moves and the CRS and will begin to look to PRP and PHP, which are still external, come June July time. Not implying that there will be any 'proper' external recruitment for a while yet. I believe PRP is 130 through out of 270..... and that's for this New Gatport Wick outfit.
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It is interesting to note that no other IAG airline made any compulsory pilot redundancies during covid. BA did and now they are having to wet lease…
Last edited by eagle21; 27th Jan 2022 at 16:48.
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What I meant was, they've exhausted all internal moves and the CRS and will begin to look to PRP and PHP, which are still external, come June July time. Not implying that there will be any 'proper' external recruitment for a while yet. I believe PRP is 130 through out of 270..... and that's for this New Gatport Wick outfit.
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My bet is end of this year they will open up. I know 6 guys still waiting to go back to BA. Not far away but they say not before June for sure.
See how summer goes then open up September-ish to get externals started possibly next year.
This is all IMO and guess work.
Of course we are still not fully out of the woods yet, everyone treading carefully it seems.
See how summer goes then open up September-ish to get externals started possibly next year.
This is all IMO and guess work.
Of course we are still not fully out of the woods yet, everyone treading carefully it seems.
I suspect there will be hell to pay amongst the SH FO community (prospectively around 40% at least of the pilots on the bus will have valid bids for LH this year) if the inevitable happens and PRP and external recruitment begins to slide back into those vacant LH seats. Any LH vacancies should be coursed with those internal bidders with valid bids. We all know the “2 course argument” will come into play as a means to justify it but why does this rule set only seem to be applicable to Airbus FOs? If that’s such a big deal then surely BA should be recruiting DEC to LH as well as that’s more cost efficient than running two courses…. But we all know DEC LH is a non starter with the BACC. Shame they wont protect the career aspirations of their own pilots on the more junior side of the coin though. I see mass resignations from BALPA from SH FOs shortly on the horizon.
Is there anywhere to see the T&C’s of the new gatwick start up?
how does it to compare to BA main and EasyJet?
it’s the best kept secret in aviation…why has it not been fully disclosed…
it would be great if someone could shed some light.
how does it to compare to BA main and EasyJet?
it’s the best kept secret in aviation…why has it not been fully disclosed…
it would be great if someone could shed some light.
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Shame they wont protect the career aspirations of their own pilots on the more junior side of the coin though. I see mass resignations from BALPA from SH FOs shortly on the horizon
You sound surprised. In case you were sleeping under a rock in 2020 whilst 249 were laid off, It should come as NO surprise to you that the BACC has very little interest in the aspirations of junior pilots. They won't give a t*ss about your threats of mass membership resignations. What's needed is fundamental change.
Last edited by Plastic787; 28th Jan 2022 at 16:47.
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I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.
Plus, you’d be surprised at the number of former LH FO’s in the PRP.
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No I wasn’t sleeping under a rock I was having difficulty sleeping as I was at risk myself but thanks for your needless condescension. Whilst I have every sympathy for those made redundant (and without going into the interminable discussion of the rights and wrongs of it) the fact remains that redundancy based on LIFO was no secret pertaining to employment with BA and in fact formed part of the Memorandum of Agreement attached to the contract that presumably you read before signing (how’s that for condescending?). The fact that Balpa tried their best to uphold contractual terms should not have come as a shock to you. What I was referring to was something quite different. I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process, pilots remaining on the P32L status list will benefit from increasing relative seniority instead of stagnating and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.
MOA isn’t available with the contract FYI. I was only able to view it after joining, on docunet. Regardless I didn’t read anywhere being on a plastic plane makes you invulnerable from redundancy either…
If you’re on the 787 it seems a bit of a cheek to quote the MOA to your colleagues that were made redundant.
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I’m not on the 787, presumably you missed the part about being stressed due to being at risk. I refuse to believe the vast vast majority of new joiners wouldn’t have had any contacts in BA who they could have asked before joining to send a copy of the MOA. That’s what I did. The whole argument on the MOA is a red herring anyway it was a fact out in the open that BA chopped from the bottom up. I for what it’s worth would have had no issue with being made redundant this way, it’s what I signed up to.
As for the comments about there being LH pilots in the PRP, so what? They’re not in the seat anymore (very sadly for those concerned) and should not be jumping the seniority queue. No displacement only refers to pilots in situ in the seat. Not to now external pilots.
Dave A has already communicated that the only agreement existing in coursing PRP Pilots relates to their seniority rather than the type ratings they previously held. Now of course I know full well what is going to happen but if you were senior on the A320 in the RHS (or even junior hoping for better treatment by JSS) you’d have a very different view on this issue and trying to argue otherwise is pointless. Do you really care about saving BA money? Or is that just a convenient excuse for you to justify something that shouldn’t be happening? I hope for most that’s rhetorical.
As for the comments about there being LH pilots in the PRP, so what? They’re not in the seat anymore (very sadly for those concerned) and should not be jumping the seniority queue. No displacement only refers to pilots in situ in the seat. Not to now external pilots.
Dave A has already communicated that the only agreement existing in coursing PRP Pilots relates to their seniority rather than the type ratings they previously held. Now of course I know full well what is going to happen but if you were senior on the A320 in the RHS (or even junior hoping for better treatment by JSS) you’d have a very different view on this issue and trying to argue otherwise is pointless. Do you really care about saving BA money? Or is that just a convenient excuse for you to justify something that shouldn’t be happening? I hope for most that’s rhetorical.
I mean, that’s a bold assumption. I joined BA not knowing anyone there and hadn’t hear that redundancy was sorted by age/seniority, not much difference (and select fleets)
You don’t need to talk to me like a fool, I feel foolish enough leaving a safe job that made no redundancies for what I thought was a safer gig at a decent outfit.
I think we’re at cross purposes to be honest. My comments regarding being aware that BA chopped from the bottom were primarily directed at those above who feel visceral bitterness at the BACC for negotiating them out of a job. I understand the bitterness at losing the job I really do, I’ve been there and bought the T Shirt (admittedly in a situation not remotely as bad as Covid), but the bitterness and anger should not be directed at the BACC it should be directed at the government (and not just ours) for abandoning almost every part of the pre-existing pandemic management strategies and ignoring the WHO’s existing advice on pandemic management by imposing absolutely useless and ineffective populist travel bans.
I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).
Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”
I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.
I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).
Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”
I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.
Last edited by Plastic787; 28th Jan 2022 at 21:18.
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I think we’re at cross purposes to be honest. My comments regarding being aware that BA chopped from the bottom were primarily directed at those above who feel visceral bitterness at the BACC for negotiating them out of a job. I understand the bitterness at losing the job I really do, I’ve been there and bought the T Shirt (admittedly in a situation not remotely as bad as Covid), but the bitterness and anger should not be directed at the BACC it should be directed at the government (and not just ours) for abandoning almost every part of the pre-existing pandemic management strategies and ignoring the WHO’s existing advice on pandemic management by imposing absolutely useless and ineffective populist travel bans.
I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).
Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”
I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.
I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).
Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”
I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.
I mean I’m struggling to sympathise with the ‘I dodged redundancy by a few places, now I want the seat I want, potentially at the disadvantage to my (ex) colleagues who in a lot of cases haven’t earned any money (or very little) in the last 2 years.
Some of us who are at the top of the PRP now face a new 7 (or8) year freeze before looking at long haul if we return on the a320, delaying a long haul move 10 years from where it was expected. So as I said, I wouldn’t come here seeking sympathy.