Ryanair Cancelling flights!
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
I once worked for an outfit where we had more than the legal minimum days off per month. The normal days off allocation was not in any contract, it was just the accepted norm. Guess what, when demand became greater than supply the normal days off were reduced to legal minimum. No contract, no union. The further insult was when our 4 day stop over in Africa became 2 'duty/rest days' & 2 days off. Usually, after a weeks duty away from home we'd have 3-4 days off back home to transition back to European flying. As there was no jet lag involved we found ourselves back on roster after 2 days back home. Lots of grumbling, but nothing to be done. Morale was in the toilet. Wedges often have thin ends. Beware.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 165
Likes: 6
From: Europe
Contractor Conundrum
Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, Section 20
This link mentions holiday pay. We are told that the 'contractors' are forced to take a month off, unpaid, and often not of their choosing. Given that an employee is entitled to a months holiday pay based upon an average of a month's income, I would have thought this would be sufficient incentive for contractors to establish once 7 for all their true status. Not to mention all the other worker's right, including sick day.
This link mentions holiday pay. We are told that the 'contractors' are forced to take a month off, unpaid, and often not of their choosing. Given that an employee is entitled to a months holiday pay based upon an average of a month's income, I would have thought this would be sufficient incentive for contractors to establish once 7 for all their true status. Not to mention all the other worker's right, including sick day.
Those employed directly that have been unilaterally allotted Annual Leave days without 30 days notice are entitled to have the days returned to them as set out by the Act.
Joined: Jul 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 295
Likes: 31
From: Sunny Bay
This practice is common in the industry outside the civilised West where workers have some legal protections.
For instance, Hong Kong Airlines currently contracts 28 days AL to pilots. If you request three or four days AL in a month they will roster you for a longhaul flight finishing the day before your requested Leave, and bingo, the three or four days ‘rest and recovery’ you earned is now shown as AL. In effect the employee pilot subsidises the airlines AL budget. Daylight robbery. Perfectly legal.
And no such thing as ‘earned weekends’ on AL either.
Office staff work Monday to Friday, and if they take 5 days AL they automatically get the Sat/Sun off as well (and they get to sleep in their own beds every night the rest of the time).
Meanwhile aircrew, who’s lives are constantly disrupted by 24/7 rostering, are deprived of the Sat/Sun attached to AL (no such thing as ‘the weekend’ for aircrew), thus being effectively discriminated against compared to the Admins (who may, coincidentally, write those rosters).
For instance, Hong Kong Airlines currently contracts 28 days AL to pilots. If you request three or four days AL in a month they will roster you for a longhaul flight finishing the day before your requested Leave, and bingo, the three or four days ‘rest and recovery’ you earned is now shown as AL. In effect the employee pilot subsidises the airlines AL budget. Daylight robbery. Perfectly legal.
And no such thing as ‘earned weekends’ on AL either.
Office staff work Monday to Friday, and if they take 5 days AL they automatically get the Sat/Sun off as well (and they get to sleep in their own beds every night the rest of the time).
Meanwhile aircrew, who’s lives are constantly disrupted by 24/7 rostering, are deprived of the Sat/Sun attached to AL (no such thing as ‘the weekend’ for aircrew), thus being effectively discriminated against compared to the Admins (who may, coincidentally, write those rosters).
Last edited by Killaroo; 6th November 2017 at 01:54.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Meanwhile aircrew, who’s lives are constantly disrupted by 24/7 rostering, are deprived of the Sat/Sun attached to AL (no such thing as ‘the weekend’ for aircrew), thus being effectively discriminated against compared to the Admins (who may, coincidentally, write those rosters).
HR is the 'industry' feeding from this structure, designing rosters a small part of their vocation; they spend every waking hour circumventing contracts, creating conflict and generating adversity. It is this way they wedge themselves into remedies, thus ensuring their own survival..
Have seen it in a few corporations in my time..Whilst Mr O'Leary and his business model has plumbed new lows, they are not alone in their endeavours!
Mach 3
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 624
Likes: 1
From: Stratosphere
The MBA's aren't that smart though are they, because they only have to look at SWA to realise "there is another way".
But the problem is, when you don't buy into or believe in the business and consider it merely a stepping stone to "greater things", you can trash it during your tenure, move on, and are insulated from the ramifications or consequences....
But the problem is, when you don't buy into or believe in the business and consider it merely a stepping stone to "greater things", you can trash it during your tenure, move on, and are insulated from the ramifications or consequences....
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: France
About AL, each airline do their own stuff. If pilots would not accept this 
they would not do it ...
A friend of mine in Austria, if ask 6 days holiday, he will have days on then 5days holidays then days on, I was choked when he told me that.
In my airline if I ask 5 days holiday, I m sure to have 2 days off 5 days holiday 2 days off.
An other friend of mine in France, if he ask at least 3 days holiday, he ll have 3 days off 3 days holiday 3 days off.
The basic should be at least like my airline.
they would not do it ... A friend of mine in Austria, if ask 6 days holiday, he will have days on then 5days holidays then days on, I was choked when he told me that.
In my airline if I ask 5 days holiday, I m sure to have 2 days off 5 days holiday 2 days off.
An other friend of mine in France, if he ask at least 3 days holiday, he ll have 3 days off 3 days holiday 3 days off.
The basic should be at least like my airline.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 2
From: Europe
The MBA is nothing more than cookie cutter.
Horizon Air also among the 'smartest guys in the room' in a great self inflicted upper cut...
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ilot-shortage/
Push the unit cost of labour towards zero, divide and conquer on the way...Pure genius! Only problem for these morons is as labour unit cost approaches the zero bound, revenue intercepts at zero too! Clearly though O'Leary is the grand wizard in aviation
You sir are absolutely correct.
SWA have been only doing it consistently for decades and I might add Rob Fyfe did a pretty good job of treating people with respect at Air New Zealand
Horizon Air also among the 'smartest guys in the room' in a great self inflicted upper cut...
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ilot-shortage/
Push the unit cost of labour towards zero, divide and conquer on the way...Pure genius! Only problem for these morons is as labour unit cost approaches the zero bound, revenue intercepts at zero too! Clearly though O'Leary is the grand wizard in aviation
You sir are absolutely correct.
SWA have been only doing it consistently for decades and I might add Rob Fyfe did a pretty good job of treating people with respect at Air New Zealand
Joined: Jul 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 295
Likes: 31
From: Sunny Bay
About AL, each airline do their own stuff. If pilots would not accept this they would not do it ...
A friend of mine in Austria, if ask 6 days holiday, he will have days on then 5days holidays then days on, I was choked when he told me that.
In my airline if I ask 5 days holiday, I m sure to have 2 days off 5 days holiday 2 days off.
An other friend of mine in France, if he ask at least 3 days holiday, he ll have 3 days off 3 days holiday 3 days off.
The basic should be at least like my airline.
they would not do it ... A friend of mine in Austria, if ask 6 days holiday, he will have days on then 5days holidays then days on, I was choked when he told me that.
In my airline if I ask 5 days holiday, I m sure to have 2 days off 5 days holiday 2 days off.
An other friend of mine in France, if he ask at least 3 days holiday, he ll have 3 days off 3 days holiday 3 days off.
The basic should be at least like my airline.
In the current climate, pilots need to start being more picky, and instead of just looking at bottom lines (pay and promotions) when choosing a job, have a closer look at all the underhand ways they rip you off in AL, Days Off, Staff Travel, Duty Travel, Med and Lic Cover etc. In the excitement of getting a new job these things are glossed over. But once you’re online they are the things that will constantly piss you off and make you hate the place.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
From: 60 north
Same Old Same Old!
Annual leave for employees, not contractors, on days off . Did not believe it until I saw it! Fantastic!
Floated out and DH on day off without being asked , all the old tricks.
But now with a friendly smile.
No pay increase in sight for anyone.
Pilots walking out, voting with the feet , as that is the ONLY way they can VOTE!
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.
Its wetlease time this summer.
Floated out and DH on day off without being asked , all the old tricks.
But now with a friendly smile.
No pay increase in sight for anyone.
Pilots walking out, voting with the feet , as that is the ONLY way they can VOTE!
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.
Its wetlease time this summer.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Pilots walking out, voting with the feet , as that is the ONLY way they can VOTE!
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.
It is so unnecessary that employees that by their nature are long term and not readily transferable are considered something to be exploited for their lack of movement, rather than savoured as valuable long term assets.
There are companies that understand the strategic asset that pilots are to an airline. In times to come, businesses will return to a more accommodating (partner) approach with their employees, but with huge investments in adversarial models, to a hammer every problem is a nail.
Ryanair isn't hurting enough yet.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: ...............
Did you ever consider that RYR might be making things worse for a reason.? Maybe the cancellation of leave / issued leave on days off is all part of a plan. Make the environment as toxic as possible for the next few weeks until the arrival of the ' Messiah' (PB) from Malaysian. He arrives and with a wave of his arm instantly makes some of the nasty things go away ....." and if you'll just trust me and sign the agreement ...." Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing ....
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 99
Likes: 1
From: Location
Hey Ryanair, how are the rosters looking? You can't fire 59 captains at a time and replace them with 999 cadets.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1107/91...-collectively/
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1107/91...-collectively/
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
Ryanair said it was "inundated" with applications from pilot union members in Monarch, Air Berli,n and many other facing redundancy or pay cuts because of the failure of those pilot unions,
From the rte news article. Is RYR saying that the unions were responsible in some way for the demise of Monarch & Air Berlin? Wow!
From the rte news article. Is RYR saying that the unions were responsible in some way for the demise of Monarch & Air Berlin? Wow!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 1
From: Hotel Gypsy
I was sat on the apron at Faro mid-morning today idly chatting with the handling agent about the 5 Ryanair 737s parked on the line. She told me that their whole morning 'shift' had been binned a few days back and an airport that used to have 30 Ryanair movements a day was now handling 11. It was certainly unusual seeing 5 aircraft with doors closed and nothing going on.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 79
From: UK
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t FR park planes up in the winter in places where parking is cheaper? Could this not be another reason why you are seeing planes at those places?
Not an FR pilot, so I am speculating.
Not an FR pilot, so I am speculating.