SAS Ireland SAIL
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: London
I think Smooth Airperator has hit the nail on the head! As a former Monarch FO who joined Primera and very recently joined SAIL I recognise a lot of what he says. At Primera there were plenty of cultural issues, miscommunication and misunderstandings but mostly colleagues got on together and actually produced a reasonably good working environment. Standards at Primera were either satisfactory or much better but a few of my colleagues were not up to the task. They passed the joke of a selection via Skype and a few online tests only then to be failed in the sim on OCC or on a line check. I suspect dealing with cultural challenges at SAIL and a better recruitment process would help.
The trainers I knew at Monarch were almost exclusively friendly and very able instructors. They had high standards but were practical as well. They were always fair and I dont expect that has changed. However, if you are a charlatan, you will be found out!
The trainers I knew at Monarch were almost exclusively friendly and very able instructors. They had high standards but were practical as well. They were always fair and I dont expect that has changed. However, if you are a charlatan, you will be found out!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,410
Likes: 46
From: Between a rock and a hard place
I was considering taking a flight with SAIL, I just cancelled!
Sounds like a sour mix of cultures without a firm hand (such as in Ryanair) to steer people right.
If noticed by the majority customers, I don't know. Tbh, my one and only SAIL flight was pleasant. Nice crew, cabin and flight deck. I still don't like the way they're dumping our own fair trade in Scandi though.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Cardif
Salary
After my application, I received the contractual terms and the possible average monthly salary for Captain position is:
Basic salary 6,842 Ģ +
Overnight (10 nights) 510 Ģ +
Block hours (60 hours) 1,620 Ģ
Total: 8,972 Ģ gross
+ Benefits
After tax doesnt look really high to live in the London area.
Someone knows what the benefits are?
I asked several times, but I havent received an answer.
Basic salary 6,842 Ģ +
Overnight (10 nights) 510 Ģ +
Block hours (60 hours) 1,620 Ģ
Total: 8,972 Ģ gross
+ Benefits
After tax doesnt look really high to live in the London area.
Someone knows what the benefits are?
I asked several times, but I havent received an answer.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: London
Pension and partially subsidised private healthcare as well. 5/4 roster. New A320NEOs and SAS staff travel after 6 months. Operating out of LHR can be a pain but the newly rebuilt T2 is very nice indeed.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: France
Italians, French and Spaniards operate in more of a 'man and boy' style (often dictating and not truly appreciating the value of junior colleagues - sorry it's true) and are more by the book. A good thing and bad thing in that they seldom think outside the box. It's this one thing that is often the source of conflict. The English style is not as 'by the book' but can often be more practical (IMHO having flown at 5 Airbus operators over the world).
Working currently in Uk and been with 3 differents operator before (not Uk), Uk is for me the far more about strict SOP, by the book and no manual flight, after I agree the CRM was usually the best with less dictator captain.
Now I understand all those cultural difference not easy if people are not use to it and little bit open about the world.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 269
Likes: 1
From: Age
These useless pilots with poor standards didn't just jump in a SASI airplane and fail their training. They've been interviewed, went trough a simulator screening done by CAE who is running SASI. So who's to blame? CAE who, in this case ,is not able to select pilots for their own airline, or the training department being unfair to some pilots who then are not that useless?
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Burwash
SAIL LHR
Reading the last two pages is hilarious....
For anyone considering joining:
Things have vastly improved. Hotels are now industry standard and T&C's are now pretty good. Still the only real problem is CAE who learn very slowly, but to be fair, every company has its managers that cause problems. Certainly in LHR the union is doing a good job of ensuring they abide by UK law - a major clause included in the contract.
Standards? Yes standards expected are high, but more than that, much more than that - you attitude is expected to be professional and positive. If you suggest that you are going to ignore SOP's you will find yourself some grief.
Brits vs Europeans? I can only express a view from the Brits side - yes many of us have not been used to flying with so many europeans, but really it only means OUR communication needs to be better and yes that takes effort - but can only serve to improve our stds as pilots.
SOP's are SOP's if you don't like a company's SOP's don't join, we all know BA has innovative SOP's but i doubt anyone would join and then actively say they won't follow them.
So pay very little attention to those vehemently moaning - it's not perfect, but I'd recommend it
Good luck to all
For anyone considering joining:
Things have vastly improved. Hotels are now industry standard and T&C's are now pretty good. Still the only real problem is CAE who learn very slowly, but to be fair, every company has its managers that cause problems. Certainly in LHR the union is doing a good job of ensuring they abide by UK law - a major clause included in the contract.
Standards? Yes standards expected are high, but more than that, much more than that - you attitude is expected to be professional and positive. If you suggest that you are going to ignore SOP's you will find yourself some grief.
Brits vs Europeans? I can only express a view from the Brits side - yes many of us have not been used to flying with so many europeans, but really it only means OUR communication needs to be better and yes that takes effort - but can only serve to improve our stds as pilots.
SOP's are SOP's if you don't like a company's SOP's don't join, we all know BA has innovative SOP's but i doubt anyone would join and then actively say they won't follow them.
So pay very little attention to those vehemently moaning - it's not perfect, but I'd recommend it
Good luck to all
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Cardif
Many thanks for the information, anyway today I received the official benefits list from CAE:
- roster 5/4 with flexible roster pattern of 6/3
A Flexible Roster pattern option may be made available on which in principle you will be rostered on the basis of six (6) consecutive duty periods on-duty followed by an off-duty period. The off-duty period shall normally be a period of three consecutive 24 hour periods beginning when you are released from duty after the sixth consecutive duty (the Flexible Roster Pattern). The Flexible Roster Pattern will be based on the Standard Roster Pattern however there will be a sixth duty where there would otherwise be a day off.
- Insurance
At the Company's expense, the Company will provide you with Personal Accident insurance in accordance with the detailed policy terms and conditions which are available on request. You may wish to take out additional insurances in accordance with your own personal requirements.
The Company will provide you with access to medical insurance at your own expense and responsibility. This insurance is offered at Company rates.
The Company will provide you with a monthly allowance of Ģ55.00 if you choose to avail of towards personal medical insurance. This allowance must be put toward personal medical insurance Payment for this allowance will be made through expenses procedure detailed in Company Polices and procedure where receipts are submitted.
- LOL
The Company will provide you with an annual allowance of GBPĢ 1,500 to put towards Loss of Licence (LOL) insurance. This allowance must be put toward LOL insurance and you may be asked to provide evidence of such insurance. You are entitled to avail of the Company's rates if LOL insurance is arranged through the Company.
- Pension 5% of basic pay around 100 Ģ
- Travel ID tickets after 6 months limited on SAS Ireland network
- roster 5/4 with flexible roster pattern of 6/3
A Flexible Roster pattern option may be made available on which in principle you will be rostered on the basis of six (6) consecutive duty periods on-duty followed by an off-duty period. The off-duty period shall normally be a period of three consecutive 24 hour periods beginning when you are released from duty after the sixth consecutive duty (the Flexible Roster Pattern). The Flexible Roster Pattern will be based on the Standard Roster Pattern however there will be a sixth duty where there would otherwise be a day off.
- Insurance
At the Company's expense, the Company will provide you with Personal Accident insurance in accordance with the detailed policy terms and conditions which are available on request. You may wish to take out additional insurances in accordance with your own personal requirements.
The Company will provide you with access to medical insurance at your own expense and responsibility. This insurance is offered at Company rates.
The Company will provide you with a monthly allowance of Ģ55.00 if you choose to avail of towards personal medical insurance. This allowance must be put toward personal medical insurance Payment for this allowance will be made through expenses procedure detailed in Company Polices and procedure where receipts are submitted.
- LOL
The Company will provide you with an annual allowance of GBPĢ 1,500 to put towards Loss of Licence (LOL) insurance. This allowance must be put toward LOL insurance and you may be asked to provide evidence of such insurance. You are entitled to avail of the Company's rates if LOL insurance is arranged through the Company.
- Pension 5% of basic pay around 100 Ģ
- Travel ID tickets after 6 months limited on SAS Ireland network
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: Outta town
So its basically 6:3 then, with occasional 5:4? Or does the employee have the option to reject the "flexible" option?
Seems disingenuous to say 5:4, and then to say, oh by the way, we've got flexible rosters.... we all know where this leads
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Cardif
If is in the contract and clear like that I dont think it is possible to reject anything.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Burwash
so basically 13 days off 4 times a yr with 2 days leave left over - LHR contract
AGP i believe get 30 days leave
Joined: Apr 2018
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,817
Likes: 276
From: United Kingdom
From a friend of mine who is union rep for SAS, this was his own words: If this company is goes under (hopefully) the pilots are out on their own.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 360
Likes: 2
From: in the hills
From a friend of mine who is union rep for SAS, this was his own words: If this company is goes under (hopefully) the pilots are out on their own.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
Joined: Apr 2018
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,817
Likes: 276
From: United Kingdom
Tell your friend "the union rep" not to be so hopeful. sas won't be going under any mat in Denmark nor will Sail under any mat in Spain. He's a fabulous imagination. perhaps he should focus on his own performance rather than dreaming .................................
https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/no...e-fly-i-sommer
https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/no...den-av-kollaps
Use Google translate, and you will discover a lot of interesting news. SAS Scandinavia is going fairly good at the moment, the same can't be said about SAIL.
From the press it seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, even say it's worse than Ryanair, that takes some making.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Burwash
From a friend of mine who is union rep for SAS, this was his own words: If this company is goes under (hopefully) the pilots are out on their own.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.
The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.
For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.
What a lovely post, there are some truly inspiring people about! Wishing people get made redundant huh? What a wonderful human being you are!
We have had SAS mainline management on jumpseats, they are really happy with SAS Ireland, maybe not so much with the handling company.
it has been expressed to us if this doesn't work, mainline is in trouble.... so wish away Hahaha
Last edited by R1ddle; 3rd December 2018 at 00:26.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: europe
If you are working for SAIL you are not exactly part of an innovative upstart trailblazing new and different ways of doing things. Nor are you an independent competitor. You are flying mainline planes on mainline routes, arenīt you?
And if you ignore the PR people and fancy management speeches and instead read the fine print in the annual reports you will notice SAIL isnīt exactly contributing to the bottom line.
This whole discussion about T&Cs and how they are/will be/might be improving is a bit of a joke. The only reason SAIL was created is to pressure the mainline crews into accepting lower T&Cs. Now if you can add 2 and 2 together you might see that if management succeeds in this - lowering pay and pensions for mainline crews, who are already at the low end in Europe - then they obviously canīt raise the same for SAIL crews a whole lot. That would defeat the purpose. Au contraire, management would turn around and use those very lowered T&Cs against SAIL crews.
And should management not succeed, well then there is no point in having SAIL and it will very quickly go the way of all the other SAS non-main airline experiments.
You are pawns in a dirty game. Do you let yourself get played?