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SAS Ireland SAIL

Old 11th Sep 2018, 14:02
  #501 (permalink)  
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It is beyond me why several participants in this thread keeps talking about CAEs ability to change things.
CAE are pimps, pimping a lowball contract at instructed by their masters, SAS.
It is not that difficult and by the way BALPA should stay well clear of this operation only designed to lower T&C for mainline SAS pilots.

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Old 11th Sep 2018, 14:20
  #502 (permalink)  
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Errr shouldn’t that be SAS are the PIMPS, CAE are the hookers and the crews are ..................

Like it or not, the pilots stuck together for once and refused to help out CAE in their hour of need as many of the earlier promises were broken. Let’s see if BALPA have pulled a rabbit out of the hat.
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Old 11th Sep 2018, 20:50
  #503 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATIS View Post
Errr shouldn’t that be SAS are the PIMPS, CAE are the hookers and the crews are ..................

Like it or not, the pilots stuck together for once and refused to help out CAE in their hour of need as many of the earlier promises were broken. Let’s see if BALPA have pulled a rabbit out of the hat.

The problem with these sub contractors SAIL, Cityjet etc. is that its only a temporary solution for the employees. Nobody became a pilot to work for the bottom of the food chain. Why would anybody stay in these companies, if being offered a job elsewhere (or anywhere for that matter), hence they lack crews. Not because there are not enough pilots with a CRJ 900 rating or a A320, but because there is no retention plan, once the pilot is out of his training bond (in Cityjet), or (in SAIL) being offered an A320 job elsewhere.

It seems to me that the attitude in SAIL and Cityjet etc. is: We know that we have nothing to offer, and we will not compete with other companies, so we might as well screw the pilots as much as possible, as long as we have them.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 18:19
  #504 (permalink)  
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Seems like the Norwegians will do something against this social dumping, from abcnyheter.no:

Politicians believe SAS is approaching social dumping through its Irish subsidiary, and will consider legislative change. "Does not match reality," says SAS.
"This is obviously in the direction of social dumping. There is an evolution in aviation we will not delete. We now look at how we can tighten up the provisions of the Working Environment Act, "says Arild Grande (AP) in the Storting's Employment and Social Committee for ABC News.
He receives support from colleagues in the same committee:
"Today, SAS management balances on the edge of the law and always fits in undermining today's law while not being convicted of it," says Per Olaf Lundteigen (Sp), and announces he will go for legislative change if needed.
"I think SAS should sharpen. They should not go ahead to tear down our own good working life, complementing Solfrid Lerbrekk (SV).
Last Thursday ABC News wrote that SAS management will continue to build overseas. Today, how much can be flown by other than SAS pilots through negotiated agreements. The low cost airlines have no such limitations.
With nine machines in SAS Ireland, SAS will be close to the limit of the tariff agreement that expires in 2019.

"It is not uncommon for the board of directors to be in charge of the board and management of a company. I think it is quite natural for SAS to work this way too, "said Gustafson to Dagens Næringsliv after SAS reported a record profit of almost 2 billion after the third quarter.
The statement provoked strongly the Norwegian SAS Pilots Association (NSF).
According to chairman Christian Laulund, SAS is flying pilots from the subsidiary SAS Ireland (SAIL) to operate SAIL machines in the regular grid. These are employed by an Irish agency, and have lower pay and poorer conditions than regular staff pilots in the parent company.
"If it's not social dumping, I do not know: They bring labor early on Monday morning, and fly them home Friday," said Laulund.
He added that they did not pay taxes to Norway, and that SAS had no Norwegian employer's contribution.League leader Yngve Carlsen of the Norwegian Air Force Association says he has discussed the issue with the LO management. They respond to pilots from SAS Ireland being accommodated in hotels in Scandinavia for several days, and flying SAIL machines from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen on routes that pilots in the motherhood SAS usually have flown.

If that's right, such a practice is both sensational and problematic, "Carlsen told ABC News.
According to Carlsen, it violates rules of the International Labor Organization (ILO). The basic principle is that migrant workers must be treated equally with the host country's employees in terms of salary, working conditions and social rights.
"How much of the pilots in SAIL moved from the bases in Malaga and London to" position "themselves is in this context, says the federal leader.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 18:31
  #505 (permalink)  
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Also from abcnyheter.no

Pilots are strongly provoked by management's claim that their flagged Irish subsidiary has contributed extra good to billion profits for the company after a summer where they themselves have set up on days off to spare passengers.
The reason for their extra effort is that the subsidiary SAS Ireland (SAIL) has not had enough pilots, which contributed to a series of cancellations for SAS this summer. 100,000 passengers were hit by the chaos.
"It can be hardly characterized as anything but a good bluff, writes the board of the Norwegian SAS Airways Association (NSF) in a letter to its members about the claim from the SAS management.
Also, CEO Rickard Gustafson's announcement that SAS management will probably use the executive board to put even more of its operations from Scandinavia to low-cost countries, threatening negotiated agreements with the employees, as they experience it, pilots will see red.
- At the same time, our highest boss is saying that our last small employment protection (Rolle Distribution Agreement and Lease Agreement) is going to be eliminated, directly provoking, SAS's pilots write in the internal member letter ABC News has.
"If there is no social dumping, I do not know," explains chairman Christian Laulund in the Norwegian SAS Airways Association to ABC News about plans to put more out of business to be competitive.

In short, it is said that SAS has established a company in Ireland where wages are well below the Scandinavian level, and the conditions are worse than in the parent company SAS. Pilots and cabin crew are employed on time-limited contracts in an Irish agency, CAE Parc, from which SAIL buys services from.
In July, ABC News revealed that pilots in SAIL had sent a warning letter to the SAS management, warning that more pilots had terminated or been on their way due to poor conditions in a market where there is a screaming need for pilots internationally .
Predicting a loss of 130 million
CEO Rickard Gustafson admitted that the SAS crisis was due to "specific challenges" with the crew in SAIL and another subcontractor, the Irish-registered airline, City Jet. He also owed the delayed delivery of Airbus flights and airline lines.
The SAS management acknowledged that they had been overly ambitious in their planning of the summer - despite the fact that they could hardly walk around in countless host shifts. As a result, the employees in Scandinavia eventually received double pay for holiday and day off until 30 August - while SAS has to pay out millions in return for passengers who had been traveling due to canceled flights.
SAS itself estimates that the summer's crisis has cost them 130 million kroner. That number fires the pilots off.It is not unreasonable to assume that the annual result for 2018 will be nearly half a billion weaker due to the start of SAIL and problems with our wetlease operators, which should be a mindset for those responsible, the pilot association writes in the letter to the members.
- Did not contribute a fuss
Manager Christian Laulund believes SAS has not calculated all the startup difficulties SAIL has incurred - such as recruitment costs, pilots training to fly Airbus and loss of reputation.
"SAIL has not contributed a boost to higher revenues, and how over a hundred million in additional expenses in the third quarter will provide lower costs, appear as a riddle, writes the NSF board to its members.
- There are strong words?
- Yes. Someone must explain to me how this company may have contributed to lower costs and higher revenues when the phase is as it is, says Laulund.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 19:56
  #506 (permalink)  
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So in summary what is the conclusion of this article? coz I can not see the point...
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 11:05
  #507 (permalink)  
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The Norwegian parliament is finally waking up and may investigate into WTF the aviation industry is up to!
Then pass new laws OR start to use the current ones to stop illegal practices.

Cpt B
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 14:16
  #508 (permalink)  
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But not only that, it is like cancer, working as inspiration for the Primera Baltic's etc.

Flight Personnel Union is also working hard not to let it settle in Denmark (check-in.dk):

Danish and Nordic unions are ready for sympathy conflict if the announced conflict with Primera Air Nordic is launched.The Flight Personnel Union (FPU) unions union announced on August 23 a conflict against Latvian Primera Air Nordic, a sister company to the Danish Primera Air Scandinavia.
According to the FPU, Primera Air Nordic, based in Riga, uses Eastern European cabin crew on the company's flights from Copenhagen Airport. Employees from Eastern Europe are allegedly employed by recruitment companies in Guernsey and Malta and operate on terms far from the Danish agreements.
According to the FPU, the cabin crew's salary is equal to half of the salary paid by a Danish cabin crew to an agreement and, in addition, there should be limited access to pay under sickness and no paid holiday. The FPU also claims that the employees of Primera Air Nordic will be driven by taxi from pick-up locations in Malmo and Lund to Copenhagen Airport, which is basically their base.
FPU: Primera Air Nordic rejects dialogue
FPU has attempted to reach an agreement with Primera Air Nordic, just as the trade union already has an agreement with Primera Air Scandinavia. However, according to the FPU, the Latvian company has refused to enter into a dialogue or negotiation of the terms, and therefore the trade union has announced conflict.
Now FPU receives support from transport workers throughout the Nordic region and the Danish trade unions HK and Dansk Metal, who are ready to enter into a sympathy conflict if the FPU's collective agreement against Primera Air Nordic ends in conflict. It writes FPU's own media Luftfart.nu.
"In a conflict situation, the FPU, like any other LO trade union, can request sympathy - and I can not imagine anything else than we are ready to provide," says Jan Villadsen, chairman of 3F Transport in Denmark and the Nordic Transport Workers' Union , to Aviation.nu.
HK and Dansk Metal are backing up
According to Luftfart.nu, the trade unions HK and Dansk Metal also back up a possible action.
René Knudsen, head of the HK Service Capital, which organizes, among other things, check-in staff at Copenhagen Airport, says:"If we are asked for sympathy conflict, we will sympathize within the legal framework. This means that passengers do not get handled tickets and can not be checked in, "says René Knudsen.
Labor law must take a position
Before that, however, the Labor Court must first decide on the legality of a conflict with Primera Air Nordic, as was the case in FPU's case against Ryanair in 2015. In that case, the Labor Court concluded that the FPU could legitimately initiate conflict with the Irish low-fare carrier, and subsequently Ryanair closed its bases in Copenhagen and Billund.
The date of the first and preliminary hearing of the Labor Court on the conflict notice against Primera Air Nordic is not yet determined, FPU states at CHECK-IN.dk.
Primera Air's communications department announced in August a brief comment on the FPU's conflict warning that Primera Air Nordic has no "scheduled departures from Denmark".
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Old 14th Sep 2018, 06:50
  #509 (permalink)  
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More about the social dumping in the danish medias (dr.dk).

Danish low-fare carrier is being sued in court to bypass the pilot agreement.
The Labor Court has to decide whether Primera Air has violated Danish labor law by manning flights with pilots on contract at a bureau in Guernsey.The former Primera Air Scandinavia pilot Michael Ingvardsen now requires half a million danish crowns in custody after having worked full-time for two years for the Danish-based airline.
In a case that was prepared today at the Labor Court, he argued with the trade union movement that the airline has broken his Danish agreement by hiring labor from a brokerage agency in Guernsey.
- I hope a judgment will put an effective stop to social dumping in the industry. At least here in Denmark. I'm sorry that I myself accepted these terms to begin with, "says Michael Ingvardsen.

Together with the FPU union, he has sent a complaint to the airline, who is asked to pay a bid for two years' payback, lack of retirement, holiday pay and sickness pay.
It is money that the company should have paid if Michael Ingvardsen had been employed directly in the Danish agreement, which Primera Air has entered into with the Flight Personnel Union, FPU.
Resident of Denmark - employed at Guernsey
Instead, he was employed from May 2015 to May 2017 on a contract with Flight Crew Solutions, one of several brokerage agencies on the British Channel Island, Guernsey. The agency provides pilots and cabin crew members with the airlines.
Thus, the pilots on the paper are self-employed or contractors who charge their expenses rather than a wage earner.
According to FPU, this type of employment covers more than half of Primera Air pilots in Denmark. And therefore the trade union estimates that the case may end up costing the airline over 30 million danish crowns.

We believe that Michael Ingvardsen is to be considered a regular employee. Not as a self-employed person in Guernsey. And if we win the case, Primera Air has many other pilots who are ready to do the same demands, says lawyer Jan Gloggengieser Gam.
The right of employment has also been asked to decide whether Michael Ingvardsen can be considered a temporary employee if he can not be recognized as an employee.
"If the court thinks that, then we have a law based on the EU directive, which says that temporary workers must have the same conditions, including pay as employees in the user company, says Jan Gloggengieser Gam.
Primera Air in defense: Rejects all claims
Through a response from the Danish Employers' Association sent to the Labor Court, Primera Air refuses to acknowledge Michael Ingvardsen and FPU's requirements.
Among other things, the airline agrees that, in its contract with Flight Crew Solutions, it has renounced the right to be regarded as a member of the company and that it is not a temporary employment relationship.

In addition, Primera Air writes that, according to a compilation of his working hours, Michael Ingvardsen did not flew for the Danish company in the Iceland-owned travel group for the most part.
Instead, the claim states that 63 percent of his work in the two years was performed for the subsidiary Primera Air Nordic, which is based in Latvia and is therefore not covered by the Danish agreement.
DR News has contacted Primera Air in order to have an interview on the matter. But in the company, one has not wanted to participate.
Researcher: FPU and Michael Ingvardsen have a good case
Assistant professor Christian Højer Schøler, researcher at the University of Southern Denmark, has seen the documents in the case and believes that FPU and Michael Ingvardsen have good chances of winning.
He calls the case for a further development of the Ryanair model, where Primera Air has hired the company on Guernsey to avoid being covered by the agreement in Denmark.

"There are a number of conditions in his employment, suggesting that he would be considered an employee," says Christian Højer Schøler.
He points first and foremost to the high number of flight hours Michael Ingvardsen spent two years at Primera Air.
And then it is against the claim that he should be self-employed, that he should comply with the company's instructions in all situations and not have to work for other companies.
According to Christian Højer Schøler, here is Michael Ingvardsen's duty to perform his work in the cockpit personally.
- The self-employed person may send another to perform the task because it is a contract with a result to be delivered while an employee will have to meet personally because it is a personal employment.
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Old 14th Sep 2018, 10:16
  #510 (permalink)  
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So could this stop SASI from doing flights that start in Scandinavia and only do flights that start in London or Malaga?
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Old 14th Sep 2018, 10:46
  #511 (permalink)  
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SASI is currently operating for example stockholm-oslo and stockholm-copenhagen flights...

I remember when norwegian opened first Spanish base in Malaga they were doing the same, Spanish crew being send to scandinavia to operate flights from there...

I do believe sooner or later SASI will stop operating flights that start in Scandinavia, but they will still operate flights from LHR and AGP with those t&c...

In Norwegian it took 5 years to sign CLA for Spain, and now they have 7 bases in Spain...
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 06:37
  #512 (permalink)  
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Late September pay.
It wasn’t made before the end of the month, currently October 1st and no September pay!!
not a good sign! ��
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 08:26
  #513 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aeromaniac View Post
Late September pay (due technical reasons).
October 1st and still no September pay!
Not a good sign! ��
First of all I am not sure how it looks in England, but in Spain the employment contract seems completely illegal...

Second of all if I would not receive salary as per contract equals I would be unable to work until I receive salary...
So far there are no cancellations today...

Finally I would assume that the salary is late due to secretary working in famous agency running SAIL having weekend off :/

This mickey mouse company does not stop to surprise, how despite complete incompetence they are still running the airline ;/
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 09:00
  #514 (permalink)  
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Thats no good!
When was September pay supposed to be in , as per the contract?
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 20:54
  #515 (permalink)  
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Talking to SAS LHR crew last night, not been paid not good
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 22:17
  #516 (permalink)  
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Aeroflot is hiring A320/B737 Captains. Let me know if you need help.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 23:16
  #517 (permalink)  

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Why not start a separate thread, Fly320bus, and share the knowledge on what the conditions are? Let's see how serious you are .. , hm?

This link does not show much of attention from the recruiters: Aeroflot pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 04:22
  #518 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Why not start a separate thread, Fly320bus, and share the knowledge on what the conditions are? Let's see how serious you are .. , hm?

This link does not show much of attention from the recruiters: Aeroflot pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools.

not interested in big threads,
just wanted to help as I recently joined. And I know how it feels to go through this situation. That's all. Best of luck.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 05:29
  #519 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
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I may have misworded my request, it is a genuine one. Congrats for your leap of faith, by the way!

The Aeroflot's conditions are not the worst in EU. From what I learned, definitely better than Primera's (unless you had lived at one of their bases and/or could reach for the high level PIC hrs pay).

Though I assumed you were connected to AFL recruitment - sorry for that - we're still interested to know. Even if AFL were the low edge, sharing their T&C helps. It puts a mirror in front of the "western" 3rd tiers and pushes up the whole pyramid.

This is a SAIL thread, let's not hijack it. Hence the request for a separate one. It is time to get fat, the winter's coming.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 2nd Oct 2018 at 15:08.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 07:21
  #520 (permalink)  
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If there is moneny trouble, SAS main will of course pay the salaries, after all, SAIL is needed before the negotiations with SAS main next spring.....
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