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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 8th Oct 2014, 20:51
  #801 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: The Wood
Posts: 248
I've seen several SH 320 rosters for both LGW and LHR across winter and summer and they're again appalling at times.

An example of a friend who is LHR 320 this month from Roster Buster:

Day 1-7 on night stopping every night, off 8-9, 10-11 on (day trips), 12-13 off, 14-15 on (day trips), 16-17 off, 18-19 on night stopping, 20 off, 21-27 on night stopping every night. Here take day to mean within what I can see of the roster, not date.

That's after 3 and a bit years in the company - working every weekend. I'd rather bunch my stuff together and have proper blocks off, not night stop and get my fair share of weekends off. Call me a boring weirdo for enjoying family/ friend time by all means but BA are in fact TOO stuck in the 60s in many respects. I wouldn't invest my time in a company in this way on the basis of a promise later - which without a shadow of doubt will not be delivered.
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 21:03
  #802 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 36
Thanks WBF

you haven't cheered me up!!!
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 21:52
  #803 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,218
What's more, with a roster like that you have to live very close to your base. Heathrow is an expensive part of the world. On a more structured roster you could commute.
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 22:04
  #804 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 576

I understand the 737 is nearly finished and it wouldn't be for entry onto that, but I was pondering more the 777/747 especially for guys with lots of hours (I have 5000+). Managing about 9 days off a month at the moment and going from earlies to lates mid duty-cycle, with at times less than 62 hours rest between 6 consecutive runs does not make for good rest planning!
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 22:16
  #805 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 683

Surely you must be over-egging your pudding. The LH rosters given here look tranquil and serene when compared to the back2back2back2back2back2back rosters some of your colleagues seem to manage with absolutely no problem at all! (whilst commuting from far far away!)

Get a grip man!
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 05:42
  #806 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,517

I was under the impression that BA had a better scheduling agreement? Is there any sign of improvement in the near future?
Probably worthy of a thread in itself but the answer is (IMHO): Absolutely not, if anything for many it's on course to get worse.


The LH rosters given here look tranquil and serene when compared to the back2back2back2back2back2back rosters some of your colleagues seem to manage with absolutely no problem at all! (whilst commuting from far far away!)
Ahhh ...have you been reading another Forum ...

I'm pretty sure that the colleague involved must be very very very senior and certainly wouldn't be doing it with a string of East Coast 3 dayers. In any event EASA is going to put paid to most B2Bs in the not too distant future, reducing the ability to swap/trade trips to produce a more "commuter friendly" roster, something anyone planning on living outside the London Area needs to factor into their decision making.

Get a grip man!
It's a fair cop, I promise I'll try

Last edited by wiggy; 9th Oct 2014 at 07:28. Reason: Trim rambling post
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 08:18
  #807 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eurozone
Posts: 150
Just had the inevitable PFO

Rated and current on the 744/8, 5500 hours on type. ex GSS.

God alone knows what they are looking for. Not me obviously.

Looks like the dole queue after xmas...
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 11:20
  #808 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 683
get some 320 hours, then come to easy and have a career - a work/life balance. Keep fighting. Consider no man happy until his end is known. BA pilots are faced with potentially one of the most contrasting changes, shy of Swissair, that any pilots will face. It's done. Tables are turning.
The problem "BA pilots" face is that the company are attempting (reasonably successfully) to reduce the T&Cs of one third of BA pilots (SH) down to the likes of Easy.

However, still on my first marriage and with well over 20 years now in BA I've probably had my career. Work/life balance is not an issue, and with something approaching 2million pounds in a SIPP, I don't need to worry too much that my end is not yet known. Though I accept the airline world is not what it once was for any of us, and certainly for those starting out. That's a shame, but it is no fault of mine! I have done nothing to hasten the career's demise, other than to have been present to witness it!

I hope you enjoy Easy as much as I enjoyed BA you bitter little man.

Last edited by 4468; 9th Oct 2014 at 11:47.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 12:45
  #809 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 683
Your SIPP is exceptional - certainly not the standard for a BA pilot I'd hazard. Rich wife/ inheritance/ wind fall/ trust fund/ no life?
Exceptional? How would I know. It's not a topic of conversation at work.

Rich wife? Ha! Inheritance? Ha! Wind fall? I wish! Trust fund? No! No life? Quite the opposite!

I transferred a small personal pension into the scheme when I joined, and then spent at least ten years accruing at 45ths. It's what it says on the tin. My pension earned in BA.
Ask BMI/ MON pilots how safe pensions are.
Precisely why it's now in a SIPP, and no longer in the company scheme. It's my money to do with whatever I wish.

As for your financial calculations over a career, you'd need to be far more rigorous to come up with an accurate comparison I'm afraid. You'd also need a crystal ball. 18 years to a command? A LH command maybe. But a Gatwick command living an Easyjet style life? Not a chance. Gatwick is the most junior because there are far far better options available within BA for anyone who so prefers.

Have you overlooked the fact that some of our senior co-pilots earn around 100k basic, plus allowances? A 35 year captain (the career length you chose) would be earning in the order of 150k basic plus allowances. Your 'back of a fag packet' calculations don't stack up I'm afraid.

As I said. I hope you enjoy Easy as much as thousands of pilots are able to enjoy BA. Whilst you're flogging backwards and forwards around Europe on multi-sector days, there are BA colleagues taking a couple of Rolls Royce to the Maldives. They'll probably stay a week before bringing the Rollers back. It's their job you see. Sometimes the roster looks more like a holiday brochure!
a work/life balance.
Don't make me laugh!

Incidentally, I understand from the recruitment department we are interviewing a considerable number of Easy pilots. Can't imagine why. Obviously not you though eh?
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 12:48
  #810 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 18,303
BA offers a top drawer package in the UK. Always did, still does.

I was lucky not to get into BA and instead get into EZY because the last decade has been the glory years of share windfalls and short commands and ready base transfers. That is probably somewhat over as the business matures.

My reason for posting is to make only the following point. Housing costs within 90mins of LHR (and LGW) have risen from silly to breathtaking compared to the UK regions whilst the direction of travel on tax is that high earners are going to be vigorously milked harder including their pensions. So. If you can live in the regions (or abroad) like many EZY and also many BA crew manage then that is a Good Thing.

BA top dollar money against a nice house within 90 mins of LHR will probably leave less disposable income than Jet2 top dollar money and a nice house within 90 mins of Leeds when applying the tax regime of 2019.

It might be sweet to be a BA 777 pilot and live in Leeds or an EZY Captain and live in Leeds. What might become less pleasant is a BA pilot stuck for a long time on short haul in LHR or an EZY Captain stuck in LGW.

Tax and house prices are becoming game changers sadly. That 2m family house in Maidenhead might be consuming 13,000 a year 'mansion tax' of that final salary pension within the next couple of years...
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 12:56
  #811 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 18,303
I know of a couple of EZY SFO's who have had the welcome on board letter from BA but don't know whether to go or not. There is no right or wrong answer. Some have gone, some have stayed.

Sadly, and I mean that because I really want other employers to offer much higher pay, its not as clear cut as it once was.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 13:06
  #812 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: uk
Age: 29
Posts: 18
Does anyone have any idea when the SH review will be out and what it may result in?
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 13:44
  #813 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 683

Some of what you say bears a passing resemblance to accuracy. Some does not. However...
It's likely to be 12 years as an FO on 320 before even having the chance to change fleets now and you know it.
I'm afraid I don't 'know that' at all! That sounds completely wrong. If you accept that BA need LH copilots, (2016 sees the first BA pilots reaching 65 since retirement age changed) and that the company aren't, in any normal circumstances, able to recruit into positions for which there are unfrozen internal bidders. Then I don't see how it could possibly take very much longer than the Engagement Freeze (5 years) to move.


I'm afraid I can't say this with any certainty, however:

Firstly congratulations. Particularly if you go straight to LH. BA place no residency requirements on anyone. New joiners will be no different, but I'm afraid I can't recall how long you must serve (if any) before qualifying for staff travel.

Tax is between you and HMRC, and is dependent on how many 'midnights' you spend in the UK.

Part time is not limited by length of service, though I vaguely recall there may be a requirement to spend 6 months full time after any conversion.



I believe the SH review is due to be announced before the end of the month. Mutterings are that pilots won't be too surprised? Who knows if that's accurate?
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 14:57
  #814 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,517

I would like to continue to live in my current overseas home if I were to join BA, is that acceptable for new joiners? And if it is, can I opt out of PAYE tax or would I pay tax as normal and then need to submit a tax rebate claim at the end of each year?
No reason why not, just be aware if asked that there's a caveat in Flight Time Limitations about not having to travel more of than 90 minutes prior to report for a trip.....

There's a bit more these days to being non-resident than simply midnights out of the UK so you'll need to take professional advice. If you are deemed non-resident by UK HMRC yes you can apply to be on a list with BA which removes you from PAYE. If the rules for you are the same as those that apply to UK nationals then depending on how much UK Duty you do in the year you will still liable to an element of UK tax. You'll probably have to file an annual return with HMRC and could/would have a annual tax bill based on the duty time in the UK during the year. In addition you will obviously (??) have also have to reconcile your Tax and Social Charges situation with your own tax authorities "at home".

At the moment you get staff travel after 6 months.

Not sure what the requirement is to get part time in the first place, but the last time I looked you needed to do three months full time flying after any conversion course before going onto or/back onto a part time roster.

Last edited by wiggy; 9th Oct 2014 at 18:57.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 17:45
  #815 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Spain
Age: 40
Posts: 19

There are very few compulsory retirements for the next 5 years, and the masses do not hit 65 for about a decade hence the stagnation and long times to get off the SH fleets.

There are many many additional variables in predicting when one reaches the major seniority number to leave SH, such as expansion, take-up of part-time, tax changes, type requirements on new types etc, but as things stand a decade on SH does not look unreasonable. I got very bored once and look at how long from my seniority as junior trash and it looked to be in the 7-9 year region. And it that length of time so much can change in IAG/BA that it could become moot.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 17:46
  #816 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 706
I believe the SH review is due to be announced before the end of the month. Mutterings are that pilots won't be too surprised? Who knows if that's accurate?
That seems to be the gist of it. Other departments will most likely bear the brunt. The biggest hit for SH pilots would be a pay cap at LHR to match LGW. But everything is conjecture.

One thing is for certain, SH pilots cannot work any harder, and more to the point SH cannot improve its balance sheet unless BA sort out the dysfunctional and frankly ridiculous working practices and inefficiencies of the many working groups and logistics systems that are the hallmarks of the airbus operation out of LHR.

The biggest single reason we still have an in-house SH operation (any other legacy airlines recruiting into their SH arm?) is that BA are actually not very good at running an efficient and profitable SH airline, and never have been. That is what is about to change, as IAG now run the show. Long Haul is and will continue to be THE part of BA that is desirable to work for from a pay/work life balance. Overall BA is still a good gig. But only really if LH is your bag and you don't mind spending 10-15 years building seniority to enjoy the best it has to offer.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 18:13
  #817 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 18,303
Forgive me, I am intrigued by this as its a hot topic amongst the FO's at work of whom half are applying to BA or half are wondering whether they ought to have.

One thing is for certain, SH pilots cannot work any harder
Is it pretty common to be doing more than 800hrs flying/1500hrs duty in BA short haul?

The most common heard motivator I hear runs along the lines of "I can't do forty years of low cost flying" due to a perception of high utilisation. Generally people nod and accept that as a given. Yet like last year I look at my logbook and note todays rolling 365 is:

Flying time 695:20 Duty hours 1398:03

That's with three days sick, normal leave and full time roster in an orange minibus. If BA short haul really is worse than this rather than better then a few people's lifestyle calculations at work might need adjustment. Relocating to London to fly more hours on longer duties is not part of the generally portrayed brochure.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 19:26
  #818 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portugal
Posts: 60
BMRR, haven't heard about a possible SH pay cap at LHR. If that's true I believe over half the LHS peeps are well over 16 yrs plus resulting in major pay cuts. Think the proverbial may hit the fan pretty soon!
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 19:30
  #819 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Talking Really??

There really is so much drivel written on here about BA, most of which seems to come from people who aren't even in BA! I'm a junior SH commuter and life is nowhere near as bad as what's been spouted on this forum.

The 10-12 year wait for LH is utter BS. I did my own sums from last year's bid and also had a detailed response from the P&P guys and it's the standard 5 year wait as has already been mentioned. There are 750 internal transfers planned in the next 12 months alone!

I've been at the bottom for the last few years and my rosters (triplines and blindlines) have always been blocked work. One huge, unique advantage of life in BA is the ability to chop and change your roster through eMaestro to suit your needs.

I have done a couple of consecutive months of only one weekend off, then I've had a couple of months with almost every weekend off! The last 12 months have been harder work due to the manning level ballsup but our CAP in nov is down to the 70's. I didn't come close to the 800 hour mark last year, it was less than 700!

BA isn't what it was. It will probably deteriorate. There are elements of the Ezy/loco job that I'd love to have but you can't have it all (?). I would, however, still recommend BA. Network size, control of roster, fleet switching, variety, security and decent pay (with the allowances tax calculation and increments my take home is more than I thought it'd be and continues to go up).

I am posting this to add a little balance to the continual negative slant on life in BA. It really isn't that bad.😄
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 20:26
  #820 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 207
Could anyone else post (or PM) typical LH rosters?

Thanks in advance.
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