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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 4th Mar 2016, 14:39
  #2701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 80
Wiggy,

Is that good or bad? What are the general thoughts?
VeroFlyer is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 14:54
  #2702 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,424
Originally Posted by VeroFlyer View Post
Wiggy,

Is that good or bad? What are the general thoughts?
TBH I'm not sure I want to go there ....we've had an ongoing and what has been at times a very unpleasant "on-line" debate via the Union forum in the run up to the ballot, and I'm not sure I want to repeat it here.

However anyone joining in the near future will no doubt be exposed to the fall out from this ballot so what I would say, all very much IMHO:

Some think Bidline is doomed now we are "full EASA" so we need to move on, some don't. Some think JSS might flatten the seniority gradient, some think it might steepen it...personally I honestly don't think anybody will know for sure how rostering will work until they've seen it in action so voting either way on this was a real leap of faith.

As far as the flying pay, the company didn't like the fixed monthly payment and were determined to go back to a variable rate, and they pretty much linked the continuation of a pilot bonus scheme to returning to the variable scheme. As a result on the line opinion was split - some like variable rate (work higher hours = get paid more) plus the chance of a bonus if the company continues to perform well, but some ( particularly those looking to get loans, mortgages) are not best pleased at the prospect of losing a fixed figure from the monthly payslip.


To give you an idea of the split in opinion, of those that returned votes:

54.4% voted to end Bidline/ go to JSS and get rid of the Fixed Flying pay.
43.8% voted to keep Bidline and keep Fixed flying pay....
1.8% voted for neither ( a somewhat controversial Option on the ballot paper)

....and would you believe over 20% of those who could have voted didn't return a vote ( which was electronic).....at all. Given this was quite possibly the most important ballot we've had in BA BALPA for over 20 years all I can say about those individuals not voting is

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2016 at 15:10.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:11
  #2703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,442
Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?
Megaton is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:18
  #2704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 1
i thought the turnout was 65%
3Greens is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:22
  #2705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Megaton View Post
Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?
I have flown with a few Captains who did not vote for exactly that reason.
Jaffo320 is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:22
  #2706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 363
Existing Bidline was largely rendered extinct by the advent of EASA, mainly the requirement for a certain number of days off after a Longhaul trip crossing four or more timezones.

We were being asked to choose between "Bidline 17" or a BA version of Jeppesen Strict Seniority, both of which it was argued were more useable with EASA. The controversy comes when you realise that neither system exists yet and we were basically being asked to vote based upon a series of statements about each. Oh yes, and the percentage pay deal side of it was identical for both options, with some sweeteners for the preferred deal. So not really a pay ballot.

Anyway, we are where we are so we'll see if JSS actually works.

Ref FPA or Flying Pay, FPA is guaranteed monthly, Flying Pay is hours dependent. It will be interesting to see how mortgage providers interpret it for the most junior.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:26
  #2707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,424
Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?
I know for sure there was a bit of that (and I understand the logic) but I don't we've got a rough total of 800'ish pilots so close to retirement that they all aren't going to cast a vote (though of course I agree it depends how you define close)...

3Greens

i thought the turnout was 65%
From my e-mail from BALPA: "Ballot Return 79.8%"..

FWIW there was a bit of confusion caused by one or two "wags" on the Union forum chucking some ficticious figures around just before the official announcement....
wiggy is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:36
  #2708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 785
Questions:

1. When is this being implemented?

2. What happens to the "Fixed flight pay" for those of us joining who are unlikely to see an aircraft for the first few months of training and had perhaps done sums based on the pay numbers given to us by BA? Do you simply get nothing?

3. What exactly are these statements about JSS and how is it supposed to work?

I am working my notice at the moment and obviously don't regret my decision to leave the land of the Irish loco at all but have no information about the current pay deal beyond what BA have given me and wouldn't know about this change except for what people have posted on here.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 15:43
  #2709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,424
What happens to the "Fixed flight pay" for those of us joining who are unlikely to see an aircraft for the first few months of training
AFAIK the change to pay and the system is fairly instant.

I very much stand to be corrected but I'm not sure new joiners picked up Flying pay (variable or fixed) from day one anyway, so plan on being on basic. Somebody I'm sure will correct me or will clarify when Flying pay/Rate is first triggered (perhaps early days of line training when the requirement for a safety pilot is dropped ?). In any event from now on in your career in BA the variable rate will not get paid unless you fly, so if you are sick, or doing an internal type conversion/upgrade or ground course within BA you will lose an element of your monthly pay. However the theory is that when you actually do fly it's an higher hourly rate and so there's an offset/break even point of x00 hours a year, but certainly the loss of pay if on the ground for any reason was one of the objections that many had to the change back to the variable rate.

What exactly are these statements about JSS and how is it supposed to work?
Good question. You'll no longer be bidding for lines, you'll be expressing preferences (bid groups). The most senior pilots will get first pick, but perhaps with a lesser chance of picking up all the top work/days off.. ....as for how it works in reality I know one or two people who think they know how it might work, the rest of us...............

.

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2016 at 16:10.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 16:19
  #2710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 2
Does anyone happen to know what the Flying Pay figure will be?

Also, will the figure be based on actual on/off blocks or scheduled block times?

In the same position as Jwscud so would be useful to know for some calculations.
nebby is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 16:31
  #2711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 566
I personally think both systems would have effectively been the same anyway. The big reason not to vote B would have been to prolongue what we have now, as JSS will now be here in no time at all.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 16:34
  #2712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
Ref FPA or Flying Pay, FPA is guaranteed monthly, Flying Pay is hours dependent. It will be interesting to see how mortgage providers interpret it for the most junior.
This is NOT a good result for those of us lower down the pecking order. As someone looking to move house this summer, I've now got to explain to Mrs 2W2R why we have to adjust our budget.....downward.

As for JSS, only time will tell on that front. Being asked to vote on something that was put forward as a set of assumptions and doesn't yet exist didn't exactly fill me (or many many others) with confidence.

This is democracy at work and we don't always get what we want in life, but as far as I'm concerned, BALPA have just 'negotiated' away two massive items and yet I'm left pondering what's on our side of the scales to balance the equation. Or have we just had our pockets pinched.....I'm on Reserve in April, here's to looking forward to May's pay packet .

Anyway, it's done now so lets just hope JSS is as good as we've been led to believe. Meanwhile, I'll be assessing my outgoings each month....guess which one will be first.

Evening All.

2W2R
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 16:45
  #2713 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Personally I'm happy to see the FHR return because I've been short changed by several thousand pounds per year ever since FPA arrived. I never did understand the argument that it is good for when you are sick or on a conversion course. I'd rather stick my couple of grand of extra earnings in the bank each year and have an emergency fund for if I am unfortunate enough to become sick. Mortgages; yes I suppose that will take a bit more discussion with the banks, but I always found BA's mortgage certificate perfectly satisfactory before. I did not see an increase in what I was allowed when FHR first disappeared, so why do we expect a reduction now?
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 17:11
  #2714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 363
Mortgage provider's lending criteria are a lot different now compared to how they were prior to the introduction of FPA (some may say "tougher").
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 17:30
  #2715 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 785
To be fair regarding Bidline, BA made clear at the roadshows I went to last year that it was liable to change in the not too distant future.

However, they gave the clear impression that flight pay was a fixed part of pay from day 1.

When is JSS slated to come into being? I guess I might not see any blind lines after all, or rather everyone will get blind lines of some form!
Jwscud is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 18:36
  #2716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 64
Posts: 928
JSS will come in around 18 months from now, apparently; so mid to late 2017.
eckhard is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 19:24
  #2717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?

So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay? If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?
FlyingTinCans is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2016, 21:28
  #2718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,424
FTC

Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?
So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?
No. FWIW I did both an command upgrade and then later a conversion under the system we're effectively going back to and during both courses my pay was reduced down to basic for the ground phase of the courses.

If it helps I'll quote in part from a BALPA e-mail describing how the "Flying Pay Supplement"(FPS), or hourly rate will work:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FPS will be paid per planned flying hour .......The planned date of introduction is in April 2016.
The break even points for pilots between [the old] FPA and the new FPS, taking into account the fixed payments while on leave under FPS, are as follows:
320/767/LGW 705 hours
744/777/787/380 730 hours
Any pilot flying above these hours, will be better off under FPS, and vice versa (my emphasis).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving on:

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay?
TBH it didn't turn out that way since the intial two options the BALPA Company Council offered in the ballot contained exactly same pay deal....FWIW a hastily introduced "C", "we don't accept any change to T&Cs", didn't attract many votes.....

Perhaps some can begin to understand why the debate elsewhere got quite heated, and that's before considering the merits of the rostering systems...

....If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?
Yes - Three year deal: Year 1: 2% underpin or RPI, Year 2: 2.5% underpin or RPI, Year 3: 2.5% underpin or RPI

I've deliberately left the bonus scheme we've also agreed to out of the discussion, I honestly think that boils down to "do you feel lucky".

Lengthy post but hope it helps.

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2016 at 23:32. Reason: Tinkering again and again and ...
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 23:15
  #2719 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by FlyingTinCans View Post
Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?

So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay? If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?
2% uplift. No, BA doesn't pay allowances on ground duties.
Lead is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2016, 01:23
  #2720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by Lead View Post
2% uplift. No, BA doesn't pay allowances on ground duties.

Had there been an option D to include FPA and JSS I suspect it would have been very popular.

To add insult to injury I gather a very pleasant member of our cabin crew fraternity has been on Trip Advisor complaining about BA pilots getting preferential treatment at a certain T5 coffee bar and as a result the days of cheap coffee (by that I mean free coffee but with a healthy Tip for the brilliant staff) are over too.....

Pathetic
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