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Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?

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Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?

Old 23rd Mar 2014, 21:24
  #81 (permalink)  
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Thanks Al, that is entirely my point, experience changes that attitude.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 00:23
  #82 (permalink)  
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This mass exodus won't worry RYR - they will just get another load of youngsters to sell their souls and pay a huge amount of money to work for them. They have an almost endless supply of desperate people in debt up to their eyeballs on flying training willing to work for nothing to call upon. Sad but true...
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 00:28
  #83 (permalink)  
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There is a shortage of pilots in Ryanair and there is nothing anyone can do about it until they get the chance to train more people which takes a lot of time.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 01:04
  #84 (permalink)  
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I think the real trouble will start in 2015. The aircraft will start rolling in for Ryanair around then.

I think that in 2015 Emirates and Norwegian will be recruiting a lot of Boeing guys at the same time.

It's when these two big players start taking Boeing guys in the same period will be when there will possibly be a significant problem for Ryanair.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 06:09
  #85 (permalink)  
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JS-Thank you for your comment. I do know this industry well enough to know that if you turn up to CTC with 89,000 pounds cash, it is very unlikely that they will turn you away whatever your ability. It is also bad business for you to fail once into CTC. That is why you have a 90% plus pass rate. In the years prior to CTC you had Perth and Oxford approved flight training schools, through which it was very tough to pass. We have moved down the road of the FAA where you just pay for a license and then a job.

If there truly becomes a Pilot shortage, which I doubt, then it will just lead to a further deterioration in standards as less and less able Pilots are employed in to the right seat of these multi-crew aircraft. It is a path to tragedy, I hate to say that, but standards are so persistently being eroded that there is only one way that it will end.

It was not for no reason that having allowed the initial license to really become no evidence of ability that the FAA have had to introduce the 1500 hour rule. This rule comes in directly as a result of FAA inspectors looking at the standard of the low hour Pilots.

Last edited by polax52; 24th Mar 2014 at 07:23.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 07:47
  #86 (permalink)  
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Spot on polax52, well said sir.

Flying training nowadays has very little to do with safety, especially when it comes to the low cost carriers. All they want is people who are willing to sell their souls and pay to go to work. Its a very sad state of affairs. The MPL is another step towards lower standards - its only there to help the airlines address a "possible" pilot shortage - its not to make better pilots.

Flying training organisations have been predicting a pilot shortage for the last 50 years! IMHO if you turn up for an "assessment" with them they are very unlikely to turn you away if you're willing to give them £90k+ for training, regardless of your ability.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 09:58
  #87 (permalink)  
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antonov09 - The wonderful thing about PPRuNe is you can make statements with no basis in reality and the gullible and foolish just lap it all up as fact. In your case, however, you are actually are correct on one important point about easyJet - some of us do indeed wear cheap plastic anoraks to work. On the other minor details of easyJet contracts you are totally wrong. You obviously work at Gatwick and it is understandable you cannot stand us, as we are more successful than nearly all the other airlines there put together. Like all conspiracy theorists, it may be difficult to dislodge some of your neuroses about us, but I will do my best. If, however, you believe that the CIA kiiled JFK, man did not land on the moon, the Illuminati run the world and that MI5 killed Princess Diana it may prove difficult.

No pilot at easyJet now gets taken on with a 'zero hour contract' as you describe. Without exception they get taken on at some point on the New Entrant Contract scale, but do earn £1200 for 8 months. The brand new MPL guys or CTC cadets go onto what is effectively a year's probation at the end of which they get permanent contracts. Absolutely every one of them knows the deal beforehand and the times at which move up the scale (annually). From the second they arrive at easyJet they are destined to go onto that permanent contract if they do not mess up too badly (like any airline there is a minimum standard, which even you would support I hope). There is a clear route from where they are to where I am as a TRE. It can be done from zero to TRE in around 10-12 years if that is what you want and can pass the interviews, courses etc. A 10 year TRE at easyJet earns around £160k a year - not quite Lufthansa, but not exactly the stuff of starvation in the street. There are various contract variations depending on what country you are based in, so I will quote the UK one as that is the one I know best. A Captain at easyJet (we have promoted around 120 this year) earns a basic of £93,821 plus sector pay of around £30 a sector (you do about 400-450 sectors a year at Gatwick) plus they get 7% of their salary paid by the Company into a pension fund. The main topic of conversations among captains is how they are going to manage to keep their salary below £100k/year to avoid the high tax bracket - not easy, but a problem most people would prefer to have. You can become a captain at easyJet from arriving as a cadet in around 6 years (some of done it quicker). The key thing is the whole deal is not like Ryanair with every pilot having some variation on a hidden contract - every pilot knows exactly the deal and knows exactly the deal the guy sat next to him is on. We are not perfect, but we are completely transparent. As a little aside, this week I received a further £3600 into my current account from a share dividend. I have also been putting in £125 a month into a share scheme for the last few years. I cash them in every month - this month I got £1350 tax-free on my £125 investment. Next month I will do the same. Yes, it is hard to bear, but I am coping. Also, like nearly all easyJet pilots of all ranks I have been putting £250 a month over 3 years (total investment £9000) into another share scheme run by the Company. Assuming the share price does not collapse between now and August, I expect to get around £55k back on my investment. There are indeed some shocking problems of capital gains tax to consider, but again I am coping. Oh, and before I forget, I also receive around £2k in profit-related pay just before Christmas - I hope to do the same this year. And finally, I am about to receive about £3600 net in back holiday pay in May. It is a terrible airline, flying these horrible brand new Airbuses to more destinations than most airlines in the world could offer. But yes, you were absolutely right - the plastic anoraks are a terrible item of clothing.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 10:16
  #88 (permalink)  
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good reply to a moron!
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 10:41
  #89 (permalink)  
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A shame there is no like button on this site ADM
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 11:21
  #90 (permalink)  
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ADM certainly shows the benefit of having a Union clearly this is the problem which is causing the awful situation at Ryanair.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 11:28
  #91 (permalink)  
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Spot on ADM!
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 11:40
  #92 (permalink)  
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AdM, you forgot to mention the loyalty pay. It is paid as a percentage of basic salary. For FOs/SFOs, 5% at third and fourth anniversary, 10% at 5th. and subsequent anniversary. For CPTs, it's 5% at 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. anniversary, 10% from 5th. to 9th., and 15% annually from the 10th.

The scale is not reset when changing seats, so when you become CPT, you are in all likelyhood on the 10% scale. It is all pensionable as well.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 13:09
  #93 (permalink)  
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Nice to learn that CTC applicants are able to pay their debts rather quickly.

Maybe there is even room for CTC to increase their training fees

Last edited by zerograv; 24th Mar 2014 at 13:14. Reason: typo
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 13:54
  #94 (permalink)  
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ReallyAnoyed - my apologies. I did indeed forget the loyalty bonus. As a 10 year plus Captain I receive once per year 15% of my basic salary plus my 17.5% for being a TRE. At today's salary that is £16535.21 before tax or £9921.57 after tax - that is net into my current account in addition to my normal salary. The stress it generates in trying to keep under the £100k limit is indeed vexing, but I am coping. Again, just to emphasise the point, every detail I have given is available to all pilots and not just a few at easyJet. There is a clearly mapped-out route that can take an MPL pilot at easyJet from lowly cadet to senior training captain with none of the big crevasses that used to exist. Hard fought for, but that is what we now have. It has been good for the Company to have peace in our ranks and good for all pilots to have a clearly identified career structure. We are not perfect but we are way better than Ryanair.

I am not saying all this to boast or to lord it over other people. I am trying to show that the ridiculous comments of some contributors on here, who equate easyJet to Ryanair, are just totally off the plot. There is one crucial difference between the two companies - the presence of credible trade unions who have negotiated fair deals in difficult times. I unashamedly like working for easyJet and intend to do so for the remainder of my flying career. We all know there are downward pressures on terms and conditions in the airline industry - Ryanair have led the charge to the bottom. EasyJet tried valiantly to follow them into the abyss, but were prevented from doing so by tough negotiations from a position of strength - brought about by the presence of BALPA and other excellent European pilots' unions. For reasons I cannot fathom, Ryanair pilots thought they would do better without BALPA - the results of that decision are on this very thread for all to see. Somehow we missed out on sorting the plastic anorak, but I live in hope that even that may one day be resolved to save us from looking like tramps.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 14:48
  #95 (permalink)  

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Don't forget the two weeks salary worth of shares (limit £3k) we are also about to be given........

The suggestion that any TRE would accept anything other than the required standard is crass. Just because people can afford the training DOES NOT guarantee success......you still have to achieve the required CAA/EASA standard which is who TRE's act on behalf of. You seriously think a TRE is going to put his/her reputation/integrity on the line just because someone has paid £xx,000 for their training
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 15:34
  #96 (permalink)  
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ADM said

For reasons I cannot fathom, Ryanair pilots thought they would do better without BALPA - the results of that decision are on this very thread for all to see.
remember that FR pilots are not all British, many are members of IALPA which is the Irish union, so BALPA recognition would not necessarily be acheivable.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 15:47
  #97 (permalink)  
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AdM has repeated what others have already said about the T&Cs within easyJet. For a fellow Pilot albeit from another Airline to hold such a strong negative view of easyJet speaks volumes for his/her character and ability to hold a fair opinion. However, whilst upholding the view of the poor quality anorak can I also add my dislike for the pullover made from some cheap synthetic material that makes my hair stand on end when I pull the thing off. So now we have added to our wows:
1. As Captains remaining under the punitive £100k taxable pay level
2. Cheap anoraks disliked by crew and other airline employees
3. Synthetic material used in jumpers that simply ruin my hair
In summary the company is a disaster!

Being a superstitious type I steer away from tempting fate however since easyJets start in 1995 shall we compare the safety records of the legacy carriers such as BA, Air France, Lufti, KLM, Iberia with easyJet. Anyone want to make any conclusions? So the "experts" on this forum who bring safety issues up from time to time are basing their views on what? The answer is there is no statistical or factual evidence to make any of the sweeping statements about risk or safety so please don't suggest otherwise.
At least with the warmer weather coming problems 2 and 3 on my list are becoming less of an issue for the next few months!
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 18:54
  #98 (permalink)  
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ADM, It was a lot more complicated than you make it out too be, a bit similar to EZY UK covering EZY Portual striking (or potentially!), theres more beneath the surface. The BALPA/RYR fight fell flat on its face because RYR threatened to close down all the small UK bases, reduce based personnel at the larger ones and base the aircraft in Europe and operate in the reverse if recognition was achieved in the UK. The question was then asked of BALPA, can they do this? can you stop them?

A lot was learned from that campaign and the experience gained showed that a pan European initiative was the only way to tackle this problem and this squarely puts us into the RPG era.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 20:59
  #99 (permalink)  
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There is a lot of crowing from a small number of EZY guys about how much better they are. Having been at both airlines, I can tell you with certainty that they are pretty much the same, with minor differences. Substitute direct aggression for smiling assassins, genuine 5/4 roster for a worse roster with a better leave system and a few other trimmings, and to work at they're basically the same. Same kind of operation, similar size aircraft, similar standards of ops/training. So why the peeing contest?

It seems a number of the EZY crowd buy into the management "orange" bull, somehow losing perspective on the fact that they haven't got a great job either.

Ultimately, both airlines treat their crew badly and neither pay as they should for the hard graft and high standards that the bulk of their crews operate to. The current contracts for EZY FOs are dreadful, so don't be smug about them. Captains seem to be significantly better paid, but remember that RYR have never had a pay-to-fly scheme and pay their FOs reasonably.

There are a lot of things to see improved, but how about those smug, easily bought EZY pilots get a little pride back and stop attacking colleagues who have a pretty bad lot and instead focus their frustrations on management. We should all support each other, but by turning against fellow pilots, you are defending corrupt managers.

By the way, the high rate of income tax starts at £150k, I think, and you only pay the higher rate on earnings above whatever the threshold actually is, so trying to keep earnings below £100k would be damned stupid. Or are you confessing to manipulating declared earnings, ie. tax evasion?
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 22:54
  #100 (permalink)  
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Ah how predictable. Anytime anyone dares to question his beloved Easyjet, our rodent friend comes out shouting about how much he earns.

I think I've yet to meet a Ryanair Captain who complained about his remuneration either Alex. Money isn't everything dear boy.

You place Ryanair in the "scum" bracket. Sadly they are only just before easy jet in the scum airline league table you seem to have in mind. The key difference is that whilst Ryanair's pilot hater has a name and public face, all of the orange ones hide behind closed doors.

There will be a flood of orange drivers beating a path to Norwegian and their Airbus fleet. One hears the state of all companies in day to day conversation. and knowing several people who have worked elsewhere who now are fortunate enough to work for Norwegian, I am confident in that statement.

The Ryanair exodus does hold a lot of truth. I was having coffee with an ex Ryanair FO at the sim recently. He received a call from the Chief Pilot offering any base if he stayed. Apparently unheard of until now.

Best wishes to you all. Even if you do think the additional rate of income tax begins at £100k.
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