Ryanair accused of 'exploiting' staff
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Unfortunately,
I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time.
Never seen Safety issues though
Racedo,
The facts are in plain view. if a so called contractor gets his/hers work schedule from a company, wears an ID and/or Uniform from a company, is only allowed to work for that one company, then according to EU and thus also National legislation, you are employed by said company, nomatter what your contract, which in that case is illegal ( again always the responsability of the employer),tells you.
Brookfield and all are just smokehoods in this case.
And yes, I have spend a considerable amount of money on legal advice to obtain this info, which is absolutely correct.
Like it or not, these are the facts.
Booking through the Ryanair website is a snakepit of boobytraps for the inexperienced traveller or user.
By specifically having to navigate through insurance offerings, and specifically having to indicate you do not want this service, they knowingly increase the chances of users inadvertantly choosing insurance. same goes with the hotel, luggage, carhire and transportation offers, of which FR all gets a commission.
Asking passengers to pay an extra fee for the obligatory web check-in, which is done at your home with your computer, paper and printer, is exploiting. no other way of putting it.
In a way, I do admire their antics, as it is very succesfull...I do hate their antics as a passenger, who, mind you still pays less than with the competition.
I am also sure that a lot of crew for Ryanair are happy with their current situation. Good for them, but the fact remains that Contracting pilots for airlines do not exist according to EU legislation, of which Ireland is a member state.
Now Racedo, if you are flightcrew, you would better support our profession by actively fighting against the downward spiral our profession is going.
So no legal, taxation, design or business qualifications then and claiming "I am a Passenger" is a bit more than that.
I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time.
Never seen Safety issues though
Racedo,
The facts are in plain view. if a so called contractor gets his/hers work schedule from a company, wears an ID and/or Uniform from a company, is only allowed to work for that one company, then according to EU and thus also National legislation, you are employed by said company, nomatter what your contract, which in that case is illegal ( again always the responsability of the employer),tells you.
Brookfield and all are just smokehoods in this case.
And yes, I have spend a considerable amount of money on legal advice to obtain this info, which is absolutely correct.
Like it or not, these are the facts.
Booking through the Ryanair website is a snakepit of boobytraps for the inexperienced traveller or user.
By specifically having to navigate through insurance offerings, and specifically having to indicate you do not want this service, they knowingly increase the chances of users inadvertantly choosing insurance. same goes with the hotel, luggage, carhire and transportation offers, of which FR all gets a commission.
Asking passengers to pay an extra fee for the obligatory web check-in, which is done at your home with your computer, paper and printer, is exploiting. no other way of putting it.
In a way, I do admire their antics, as it is very succesfull...I do hate their antics as a passenger, who, mind you still pays less than with the competition.
I am also sure that a lot of crew for Ryanair are happy with their current situation. Good for them, but the fact remains that Contracting pilots for airlines do not exist according to EU legislation, of which Ireland is a member state.
Now Racedo, if you are flightcrew, you would better support our profession by actively fighting against the downward spiral our profession is going.
So no legal, taxation, design or business qualifications then and claiming "I am a Passenger" is a bit more than that.
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!
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So some of the critique here lately in the media is unjustified and everyone should just get on with it and if you don't like it leave.
Personally i find this view difficult to understand but in some cases then i would say you are probably right, it is better to just leave or get on with it or at least raise them internally to be dealt with instead of becoming someone that see a need to make a thing or two publicly about things. In some cases however i don't think is even possible to resolve things internally since the company are the ones that put you in the situation in the first place.
In Ryanair self-employed pilots used to have no choice to get a job if they were not 'willing' to sign a contract having to join one of a number of limited companies prepared by a set of accountants. By doing that they become a director of the company and had to use the services of these 'approved accountants' charging the pilot around 4% of their gross annual income. This rate was not negotiable nor was the setup so if you didn't like it you couldn't work as a pilot for the company. For some of these limited companies this meant the accountancy charge could be as high as 13.000€ per annum for handling expenses, tax and payroll and some other services. Individually figures around 2000€-4500€ were common for the director which is in the end of the day a pilot working for the company (an employee also it could turn out). It should be added also that if the pilot asked a accountant outside the ones you needed to use, the same service would typically cost a third to half of what the pilot needed to pay to get 'employment.'
Jobs nowadays are scarce and pilot jobs notoriously difficult to get close to home even on the same continent so if this situation does not constitute a prisoners dilemma then frankly i dont know what is since you have no way of changing this into something more appropriate if you want to get a job and do what you are trained to do. Without any representation it becomes a game where you have little to no power to highlight issues such as safety since the theats of punishment and oppression is all apparent and on occasion also very clearly seen via memo's such as the latest response to a safety petition by the Chief Pilot.
Additionally the pilots used to have or some no doubt still do a liability clause where the pilot "in the performance of his or her duties" were or still are financially responsible for all liability incurred with no upper limit including omission. Getting insurance would make the whole employment uneconomical since the rate for putting it in place astronomical.
I doubt many think this is the way it should be in any profession. So next time we hear arguments like; just leave, stop whining and get out i can't help to think that it is exactly that has led this profession into what it is today.
Or is this just me whining?
Personally i find this view difficult to understand but in some cases then i would say you are probably right, it is better to just leave or get on with it or at least raise them internally to be dealt with instead of becoming someone that see a need to make a thing or two publicly about things. In some cases however i don't think is even possible to resolve things internally since the company are the ones that put you in the situation in the first place.
In Ryanair self-employed pilots used to have no choice to get a job if they were not 'willing' to sign a contract having to join one of a number of limited companies prepared by a set of accountants. By doing that they become a director of the company and had to use the services of these 'approved accountants' charging the pilot around 4% of their gross annual income. This rate was not negotiable nor was the setup so if you didn't like it you couldn't work as a pilot for the company. For some of these limited companies this meant the accountancy charge could be as high as 13.000€ per annum for handling expenses, tax and payroll and some other services. Individually figures around 2000€-4500€ were common for the director which is in the end of the day a pilot working for the company (an employee also it could turn out). It should be added also that if the pilot asked a accountant outside the ones you needed to use, the same service would typically cost a third to half of what the pilot needed to pay to get 'employment.'
Jobs nowadays are scarce and pilot jobs notoriously difficult to get close to home even on the same continent so if this situation does not constitute a prisoners dilemma then frankly i dont know what is since you have no way of changing this into something more appropriate if you want to get a job and do what you are trained to do. Without any representation it becomes a game where you have little to no power to highlight issues such as safety since the theats of punishment and oppression is all apparent and on occasion also very clearly seen via memo's such as the latest response to a safety petition by the Chief Pilot.
Additionally the pilots used to have or some no doubt still do a liability clause where the pilot "in the performance of his or her duties" were or still are financially responsible for all liability incurred with no upper limit including omission. Getting insurance would make the whole employment uneconomical since the rate for putting it in place astronomical.
I doubt many think this is the way it should be in any profession. So next time we hear arguments like; just leave, stop whining and get out i can't help to think that it is exactly that has led this profession into what it is today.
Or is this just me whining?
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Clunk1001
You say
So why does the company have such a problem with the pilots doing so if it will be seen by the public as merely a money motivated tactic? Surely the company would welcome the scorn and ridicule it would bring on the pilots and enable them to further erode the pilots package. The pilots winging would play straight into the companies hands…that is unless there was an anterior motive on the companies behalf and a need to keep things under cover? It raises questions in my head….you don't hide unless you need to.
Deepest Norfolk
Why are you on a professional pilots network if
a) You don't like to hear pilots winging and
b) Your not in the industry
Im not on the NHS equivalent of PPrune.
Your statement
smacks of you
a)whinging about the pay that you don't get in the NHS compared to the doctors
b)you don't have to be here listening to the 'pilots whinging'
c)your obviously not happy in your job in the NHS pay wise, why whinge about it to pilots.
d)please feel free to go and pay £70-75,000 for your training with no guarantee of a job, then spend several years if your lucky as a flight instructor then pay a further £20,000 for a type rating, then you too can whinge when your terms are eroded year on year.
I am guessing your training was paid for by the government?
You say
Pilots waving their little 'safety' flags as a last ditch attempt for better Ts&Cs is a schoolboy tactic which most people can see through.
Deepest Norfolk
Why are you on a professional pilots network if
a) You don't like to hear pilots winging and
b) Your not in the industry
Im not on the NHS equivalent of PPrune.
Your statement
'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!
a)whinging about the pay that you don't get in the NHS compared to the doctors
b)you don't have to be here listening to the 'pilots whinging'
c)your obviously not happy in your job in the NHS pay wise, why whinge about it to pilots.
d)please feel free to go and pay £70-75,000 for your training with no guarantee of a job, then spend several years if your lucky as a flight instructor then pay a further £20,000 for a type rating, then you too can whinge when your terms are eroded year on year.
I am guessing your training was paid for by the government?
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No Pablo, you have many valid points!
And clunk1001, you really did not understand the prisoners dilemma game theory, did you? Chump!
Either Clunk is a troll, or the incarnation of MOL!
As this is the attitude, you not happy with the setup, shut up and walk out the door, there is another gnom ready with £30.000 for another TR anyway!
So the game is for all to say STOP, everybody wins, however the risk is of course the rats hiding below the sewer will jump up and try to steal these jobs!
But if everybody for once could see the BIG picture, and just for once unite, in one force, only than change can happen. I doubt enough are willing to move out of their comfort zone, it's strange, it seems after several revolutions, people have been whipped into submission!
Clunk should read the recent article in Air International, about pilot debts / commuting - and safety issues - EASA don't give a damn, until we have our own Colgan hole in the ground, are we so complacent, that this is what it will take before change will happen?
And clunk1001, you really did not understand the prisoners dilemma game theory, did you? Chump!
Either Clunk is a troll, or the incarnation of MOL!
As this is the attitude, you not happy with the setup, shut up and walk out the door, there is another gnom ready with £30.000 for another TR anyway!
So the game is for all to say STOP, everybody wins, however the risk is of course the rats hiding below the sewer will jump up and try to steal these jobs!
But if everybody for once could see the BIG picture, and just for once unite, in one force, only than change can happen. I doubt enough are willing to move out of their comfort zone, it's strange, it seems after several revolutions, people have been whipped into submission!
Clunk should read the recent article in Air International, about pilot debts / commuting - and safety issues - EASA don't give a damn, until we have our own Colgan hole in the ground, are we so complacent, that this is what it will take before change will happen?
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The red tops would lap that up - 'Pilots face the axe for raising safety concerns'
Interesting article here:
Flying high Ryanair posts 13% rise in annual profits but new row with pilots looms | This is Money
Interesting article here:
Flying high Ryanair posts 13% rise in annual profits but new row with pilots looms | This is Money
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No I'm not a troll. No I don't work for (or with) any European airline. No I don't have an agenda.
I think RYR have plenty of criticism due them, in all areas of their business. But the two articles linked in this thread have the opposite effect (on me anyway).
The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?
And the RPG article actually makes the RPG look bad for raising it as a safety issue. A link with commuting and safety is fair enough (I've already read the articles thanks TruckFlyer), but that's not what's in the article - its about money - pensions, medicals, uniforms and sick pay. And as 5/4 is as about as good as it gets, commuting isnt mentioned in the article. Again, contracting gets much worse outside aviation - "how about you put aside 15% of your salary for sick pay like everyone else does, instead of that flash car or big watch?" is what people will say.
My point is that whilst people may have a good cause - they are not making a good case.
And on that subject, Truckflyer, great argument by the way, the old "well you're a chump" rationale. Prisoner's Dilemma involves participants being given limited choices, in complete isolation. Wheras in RYR the RPG is specifically there to facilitate communication between Pilots, irrespective of its recognition by RYR, so there really is no similarity to Prisoner Dilemma.
Happy to discuss, if you want to give a name to your version, which involves people with multiple choices able to openly communicate, but choose not to. A name might be Pilot's Dilemma.
I think RYR have plenty of criticism due them, in all areas of their business. But the two articles linked in this thread have the opposite effect (on me anyway).
The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?
And the RPG article actually makes the RPG look bad for raising it as a safety issue. A link with commuting and safety is fair enough (I've already read the articles thanks TruckFlyer), but that's not what's in the article - its about money - pensions, medicals, uniforms and sick pay. And as 5/4 is as about as good as it gets, commuting isnt mentioned in the article. Again, contracting gets much worse outside aviation - "how about you put aside 15% of your salary for sick pay like everyone else does, instead of that flash car or big watch?" is what people will say.
My point is that whilst people may have a good cause - they are not making a good case.
And on that subject, Truckflyer, great argument by the way, the old "well you're a chump" rationale. Prisoner's Dilemma involves participants being given limited choices, in complete isolation. Wheras in RYR the RPG is specifically there to facilitate communication between Pilots, irrespective of its recognition by RYR, so there really is no similarity to Prisoner Dilemma.
Happy to discuss, if you want to give a name to your version, which involves people with multiple choices able to openly communicate, but choose not to. A name might be Pilot's Dilemma.
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 17:02.
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RyR are not the worst of these types of companies in Europe / EASA, there are companies that have much worse conditions than RyR have, and where the same safety issues apply.
There is some good reports here: More CAPA Resources | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Which shows a concerning trend.
Chunk, here is the scenario, your daughter is flying from Dublin to Rome tomorrow, however the FO for the flight is feeling ill.
So analyse the dilemma:
1. He can choose to call in sick, and not get paid.
The company will investigate him to check if he was really ill. Even nothing found, it might give negative influence on his future career.
2. He can choose to self-medicate / or do nothing, and go to work, because he needs the money to support his debts, family and kids.
3. He can call his company, and complain - and most likely get a reprimand / called in for tea and biscuits.
4. He can pretend he overslept / he did not hear the alarm, and see if the company will take any action against him.
Most people who have real "illness" of some kind, does not just have it one day off, normally will be 2-3 days and upwards, depending what the issue is.
Now of course, 99% of the pilots, will most likely choose option number 2!
Chunk, are you happy to let your daughter go on that flight, knowing that this happen?
It is easy to be self-serving, and argument that the FO should know better etc., however the day it happens, and **** hits the fan, it will be to late to complain, knowing we could have done something to improve conditions.
It is general culture in EASA Lo Co, to take calculated risks, the thought is, not a problem, we have 2 pilots, so even if something happens to one of them, there is a second one there to save the day!
But one day, as we know Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong!
And let's hope you don't come back on these forums complaining and crying than Chunk, when you discover that your arguments and assumptions was WJONG!
There is some good reports here: More CAPA Resources | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Which shows a concerning trend.
Chunk, here is the scenario, your daughter is flying from Dublin to Rome tomorrow, however the FO for the flight is feeling ill.
So analyse the dilemma:
1. He can choose to call in sick, and not get paid.
The company will investigate him to check if he was really ill. Even nothing found, it might give negative influence on his future career.
2. He can choose to self-medicate / or do nothing, and go to work, because he needs the money to support his debts, family and kids.
3. He can call his company, and complain - and most likely get a reprimand / called in for tea and biscuits.
4. He can pretend he overslept / he did not hear the alarm, and see if the company will take any action against him.
Most people who have real "illness" of some kind, does not just have it one day off, normally will be 2-3 days and upwards, depending what the issue is.
Now of course, 99% of the pilots, will most likely choose option number 2!
Chunk, are you happy to let your daughter go on that flight, knowing that this happen?
It is easy to be self-serving, and argument that the FO should know better etc., however the day it happens, and **** hits the fan, it will be to late to complain, knowing we could have done something to improve conditions.
It is general culture in EASA Lo Co, to take calculated risks, the thought is, not a problem, we have 2 pilots, so even if something happens to one of them, there is a second one there to save the day!
But one day, as we know Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong!
And let's hope you don't come back on these forums complaining and crying than Chunk, when you discover that your arguments and assumptions was WJONG!
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Truckflyer, I don't think the article mentioned being penalised career-wise for not turning up for work, it said they didn't get paid. Just like the millions of contractors everywhere that simply budget for the fact they don't get sick pay.
So why would anyone reading the article care?
I agree there is an issue, there is still a downward trend in Ts&Cs. But these articles won't convince anyone.
So why would anyone reading the article care?
I agree there is an issue, there is still a downward trend in Ts&Cs. But these articles won't convince anyone.
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 17:43.
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Of course you could budget for it, if you self-employed, you should get paid more than the normal employee, just for that reason, to budget for various costs.
It is supposed to be a tax benefit for RyR, as they save lots of money on various contributions they need to pay for an employee, however with ALL these Lo Co companies, the pay is the same as if you are employed, so that takes away any advantage to be self-employed.
Secondly a pilot can not choose to work for one company one month, and next another company, that is one of the basic criteria s to be self-employed. You are trained with one companies SOP's and are obliged by contract to only work for them!
Anyway, have a look at the Dutch tv program, 2 parts was made!
There is a bully culture in these companies, to either do what you are told, or leave! There is no 2 way communication, it is Der Fuhrer way or No Way!
I thought we ended that in 1945, it seems not!
It is supposed to be a tax benefit for RyR, as they save lots of money on various contributions they need to pay for an employee, however with ALL these Lo Co companies, the pay is the same as if you are employed, so that takes away any advantage to be self-employed.
Secondly a pilot can not choose to work for one company one month, and next another company, that is one of the basic criteria s to be self-employed. You are trained with one companies SOP's and are obliged by contract to only work for them!
Anyway, have a look at the Dutch tv program, 2 parts was made!
There is a bully culture in these companies, to either do what you are told, or leave! There is no 2 way communication, it is Der Fuhrer way or No Way!
I thought we ended that in 1945, it seems not!
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clunk
[QUOTE]The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?[quote]
My reading is that most other airlines dont charge Cabin Crew or their training, uniform, offer a basic wage, sick pay et whereas FR sorry crewlink offer SFA.
Not sure if thats FR bashing just a statement of where the Cabin Crew are.
I recently recall a bad day at my airport with snow, the likes of Monarch, Thomson etc were giving it a go. FR cancelled their flights. Someone at work said this was because the local bus company had also cancelled their services thus making it difficult for FR crew to get to work, whereas the likes of Mon/Thom CC can afford a car.... There was also a recent case where FR re-based their CC in an Italian airport with 1? days notice because their base had been closed to commercial traffic because of the conflict in a North African country. The flights were moved to an airport 90 mins away by road. I believe the crew were left to their own devices, whereas any other airline would have assisted them. I may be wrong sure someone will correct me if so.
FR are no different to many airlines, they could be a great employer, profits vv people
[QUOTE]The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?[quote]
My reading is that most other airlines dont charge Cabin Crew or their training, uniform, offer a basic wage, sick pay et whereas FR sorry crewlink offer SFA.
Not sure if thats FR bashing just a statement of where the Cabin Crew are.
I recently recall a bad day at my airport with snow, the likes of Monarch, Thomson etc were giving it a go. FR cancelled their flights. Someone at work said this was because the local bus company had also cancelled their services thus making it difficult for FR crew to get to work, whereas the likes of Mon/Thom CC can afford a car.... There was also a recent case where FR re-based their CC in an Italian airport with 1? days notice because their base had been closed to commercial traffic because of the conflict in a North African country. The flights were moved to an airport 90 mins away by road. I believe the crew were left to their own devices, whereas any other airline would have assisted them. I may be wrong sure someone will correct me if so.
FR are no different to many airlines, they could be a great employer, profits vv people
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 20th May 2013 at 18:20.
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'Highest Paid Profession'
MikeHotel152 - ridiculed and proven false by whom? You and Pprune?
...or can you point me in the direction of an official recantation?
As I said perception over fact. Readers of Pprune are not the ones that need to be convinced. The fact remains that 'Highest Paid Profession' is the general perception of the Pilot profession.
PS. I am being deliberately argumentative - I'm trying to see things from a non-pilot point of view, and the current arguments just don't present a good enough case. It's like reading those articles about GPs demanding more and more pay rises on top of their 100k+ base salary, its more likely to alienate support for their cause.
That 'official' statement was ridiculed and proven false.
...or can you point me in the direction of an official recantation?
As I said perception over fact. Readers of Pprune are not the ones that need to be convinced. The fact remains that 'Highest Paid Profession' is the general perception of the Pilot profession.
PS. I am being deliberately argumentative - I'm trying to see things from a non-pilot point of view, and the current arguments just don't present a good enough case. It's like reading those articles about GPs demanding more and more pay rises on top of their 100k+ base salary, its more likely to alienate support for their cause.
Racedo, the corollary of your argument is - are you a Judge? Tax Accountant? Business Law Expert?
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!
I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!
I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.
As for claiming you know a PIG................you could not identify every PIG, you could identify a few of the species which makes your claim that you know them a bit hollow.
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Clunk - just skimming this one, suggesting that pilots are the highest paid profession and then mentioning GP's on 100k is laughable. I doubt there are many viewers of this thread making 100k and I know plenty of GP's and other doctors that aren't either! Back to the Daily Mail I think.
I'm sure there are plenty at RYR who are happy with their lot, for a multitude of reasons. Probably those who can afford to feed and house themselves (and families) and for whatever reason not have to worry unduly about not working and not getting paid. However, when people have to make a choice of going to work performing sub-optimally and not getting paid, it would appear that there is a conflict.
Whether RYR contracts are legal or not legal is one very complex debate, but they would seem to be in the favour of the employer, not the employee and apparently not optional - therefore some doubt springs to mind immediately.
If RYR offered those they recruited to choose between a permanent, statutory benefits contract at pay rate X and a contract position at pay rate Y then the issued would be closed.
I'm sure there are plenty at RYR who are happy with their lot, for a multitude of reasons. Probably those who can afford to feed and house themselves (and families) and for whatever reason not have to worry unduly about not working and not getting paid. However, when people have to make a choice of going to work performing sub-optimally and not getting paid, it would appear that there is a conflict.
Whether RYR contracts are legal or not legal is one very complex debate, but they would seem to be in the favour of the employer, not the employee and apparently not optional - therefore some doubt springs to mind immediately.
If RYR offered those they recruited to choose between a permanent, statutory benefits contract at pay rate X and a contract position at pay rate Y then the issued would be closed.
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Syntax error - my source is The Office for National Statistics, 2013. Also some interesting data here from 2012: Real wages up 62% on average over the past 25 years. Read more...
Pilots are in the highest paid occupation and have been for 25 years. FACT. At least that's what we're all told! There's no use denying it Syntax.
. There was a discussion on it a few months ago in Pprune, an article from the Gardian I think.
Whiskey Bravo, GP average salary 103,000 in 2011. Source : Office for National Statistics. Here's one of many articles from a few years ago...Are GPs on £100,000 underpaid? | Money | The Guardian
"Back to the daily mail"
You guys are cleary too busy earning the big bucks to read anything other than Pprune
Pilots are in the highest paid occupation and have been for 25 years. FACT. At least that's what we're all told! There's no use denying it Syntax.
. There was a discussion on it a few months ago in Pprune, an article from the Gardian I think.Whiskey Bravo, GP average salary 103,000 in 2011. Source : Office for National Statistics. Here's one of many articles from a few years ago...Are GPs on £100,000 underpaid? | Money | The Guardian
"Back to the daily mail"
You guys are cleary too busy earning the big bucks to read anything other than Pprune
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 21:29.
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Pilot pay
Have to say the this pay topic and t and c topic splits me in two
When I am a pax I want my crew to be well rested happy with their pay high morale and content
When I am not a pax I just get jealous if they earn more that me ......
It's an odd one
But when I am in a plane at 30k feet you can name your price , just get me home safely I do not even care if you are on time
Some airlines just seem to push too hard on crew costs and operational efficiencies which is a worry ....
When I am a pax I want my crew to be well rested happy with their pay high morale and content
When I am not a pax I just get jealous if they earn more that me ......
It's an odd one
But when I am in a plane at 30k feet you can name your price , just get me home safely I do not even care if you are on time
Some airlines just seem to push too hard on crew costs and operational efficiencies which is a worry ....
Join Date: Mar 2007
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This isn't about just the pay, its more abut the fear factor and the inability to express concern about safety without the fear of reprisal from the company management.
I would hope the passengers care about safety, since it is ultimately their own skin we are talking about.
Pilots should not be threatened with reprisals for speaking up about something they see as safety related. It is the regulator that decides if it is warranted or not, not the company, and the pilots should not be threatened for bringing their concerns to light.
I would hope the passengers care about safety, since it is ultimately their own skin we are talking about.
Pilots should not be threatened with reprisals for speaking up about something they see as safety related. It is the regulator that decides if it is warranted or not, not the company, and the pilots should not be threatened for bringing their concerns to light.
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felixthecat - Yes crew should be allowed to speak up about safety. But this current media attention isn't about safety, is it?
The perception is that Pilots dont like the contracts and are trying to use safety as leverage to improve their Ts&Cs.
This perception that Pilots would use safety as a bargaining chip is far more dangerous than any 'zero hour contract' - if Pilots think not having a pension/uniform/medical is a safety issue, then who's going to take them seriously in future when they need to raise a real safety issue?
RYR management have a history of heavy handedness, but I think MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip, and anyone who thinks it is should not be flying a plane.
Whether this perception is spin from RYR, or whether its just a badly handled attempt at unity from the RPG is irrelevant...perception over fact.
...of course, this is all yesterdays news now.
The perception is that Pilots dont like the contracts and are trying to use safety as leverage to improve their Ts&Cs.
This perception that Pilots would use safety as a bargaining chip is far more dangerous than any 'zero hour contract' - if Pilots think not having a pension/uniform/medical is a safety issue, then who's going to take them seriously in future when they need to raise a real safety issue?
RYR management have a history of heavy handedness, but I think MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip, and anyone who thinks it is should not be flying a plane.
Whether this perception is spin from RYR, or whether its just a badly handled attempt at unity from the RPG is irrelevant...perception over fact.
...of course, this is all yesterdays news now.
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Clunk
Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?
Yes we have.
Your attempts to undermine the FR pilots valid concerns are, given your lack of agenda, rather baffling.
Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?
Yes we have.
Your attempts to undermine the FR pilots valid concerns are, given your lack of agenda, rather baffling.
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Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?
(a) pay for a type rating they couldn't afford,
(b) pay for a Breitling they couldn't afford, or
(c) in the case of Captains, pay for an ex-wife they couldn't afford
Then no, you are right MANTHRUST, we haven't learnt anything.
If Pilots turn up for duty sick because of company culture - that would be different. But, again that is not what the perception is....at the moment.
Last edited by clunk1001; 21st May 2013 at 10:47.