Ryanair accused of 'exploiting' staff
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From: Up North….
Clunk1001
You say
So why does the company have such a problem with the pilots doing so if it will be seen by the public as merely a money motivated tactic? Surely the company would welcome the scorn and ridicule it would bring on the pilots and enable them to further erode the pilots package. The pilots winging would play straight into the companies hands…that is unless there was an anterior motive on the companies behalf and a need to keep things under cover? It raises questions in my head….you don't hide unless you need to.
Deepest Norfolk
Why are you on a professional pilots network if
a) You don't like to hear pilots winging and
b) Your not in the industry
Im not on the NHS equivalent of PPrune.
Your statement
smacks of you
a)whinging about the pay that you don't get in the NHS compared to the doctors
b)you don't have to be here listening to the 'pilots whinging'
c)your obviously not happy in your job in the NHS pay wise, why whinge about it to pilots.
d)please feel free to go and pay £70-75,000 for your training with no guarantee of a job, then spend several years if your lucky as a flight instructor then pay a further £20,000 for a type rating, then you too can whinge when your terms are eroded year on year.
I am guessing your training was paid for by the government?
You say
Pilots waving their little 'safety' flags as a last ditch attempt for better Ts&Cs is a schoolboy tactic which most people can see through.
Deepest Norfolk
Why are you on a professional pilots network if
a) You don't like to hear pilots winging and
b) Your not in the industry
Im not on the NHS equivalent of PPrune.
Your statement
'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!
a)whinging about the pay that you don't get in the NHS compared to the doctors
b)you don't have to be here listening to the 'pilots whinging'
c)your obviously not happy in your job in the NHS pay wise, why whinge about it to pilots.
d)please feel free to go and pay £70-75,000 for your training with no guarantee of a job, then spend several years if your lucky as a flight instructor then pay a further £20,000 for a type rating, then you too can whinge when your terms are eroded year on year.
I am guessing your training was paid for by the government?
Joined: Nov 2011
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 749
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From: Somewhere close to me
No Pablo, you have many valid points!
And clunk1001, you really did not understand the prisoners dilemma game theory, did you? Chump!
Either Clunk is a troll, or the incarnation of MOL!
As this is the attitude, you not happy with the setup, shut up and walk out the door, there is another gnom ready with £30.000 for another TR anyway!
So the game is for all to say STOP, everybody wins, however the risk is of course the rats hiding below the sewer will jump up and try to steal these jobs!
But if everybody for once could see the BIG picture, and just for once unite, in one force, only than change can happen. I doubt enough are willing to move out of their comfort zone, it's strange, it seems after several revolutions, people have been whipped into submission!
Clunk should read the recent article in Air International, about pilot debts / commuting - and safety issues - EASA don't give a damn, until we have our own Colgan hole in the ground, are we so complacent, that this is what it will take before change will happen?
And clunk1001, you really did not understand the prisoners dilemma game theory, did you? Chump!
Either Clunk is a troll, or the incarnation of MOL!
As this is the attitude, you not happy with the setup, shut up and walk out the door, there is another gnom ready with £30.000 for another TR anyway!
So the game is for all to say STOP, everybody wins, however the risk is of course the rats hiding below the sewer will jump up and try to steal these jobs!
But if everybody for once could see the BIG picture, and just for once unite, in one force, only than change can happen. I doubt enough are willing to move out of their comfort zone, it's strange, it seems after several revolutions, people have been whipped into submission!
Clunk should read the recent article in Air International, about pilot debts / commuting - and safety issues - EASA don't give a damn, until we have our own Colgan hole in the ground, are we so complacent, that this is what it will take before change will happen?
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: .
The red tops would lap that up - 'Pilots face the axe for raising safety concerns'
Interesting article here:
Flying high Ryanair posts 13% rise in annual profits but new row with pilots looms | This is Money
Interesting article here:
Flying high Ryanair posts 13% rise in annual profits but new row with pilots looms | This is Money
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
No I'm not a troll. No I don't work for (or with) any European airline. No I don't have an agenda.
I think RYR have plenty of criticism due them, in all areas of their business. But the two articles linked in this thread have the opposite effect (on me anyway).
The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?
And the RPG article actually makes the RPG look bad for raising it as a safety issue. A link with commuting and safety is fair enough (I've already read the articles thanks TruckFlyer), but that's not what's in the article - its about money - pensions, medicals, uniforms and sick pay. And as 5/4 is as about as good as it gets, commuting isnt mentioned in the article. Again, contracting gets much worse outside aviation - "how about you put aside 15% of your salary for sick pay like everyone else does, instead of that flash car or big watch?" is what people will say.
My point is that whilst people may have a good cause - they are not making a good case.
And on that subject, Truckflyer, great argument by the way, the old "well you're a chump" rationale. Prisoner's Dilemma involves participants being given limited choices, in complete isolation. Wheras in RYR the RPG is specifically there to facilitate communication between Pilots, irrespective of its recognition by RYR, so there really is no similarity to Prisoner Dilemma.
Happy to discuss, if you want to give a name to your version, which involves people with multiple choices able to openly communicate, but choose not to. A name might be Pilot's Dilemma.
I think RYR have plenty of criticism due them, in all areas of their business. But the two articles linked in this thread have the opposite effect (on me anyway).
The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?
And the RPG article actually makes the RPG look bad for raising it as a safety issue. A link with commuting and safety is fair enough (I've already read the articles thanks TruckFlyer), but that's not what's in the article - its about money - pensions, medicals, uniforms and sick pay. And as 5/4 is as about as good as it gets, commuting isnt mentioned in the article. Again, contracting gets much worse outside aviation - "how about you put aside 15% of your salary for sick pay like everyone else does, instead of that flash car or big watch?" is what people will say.
My point is that whilst people may have a good cause - they are not making a good case.
And on that subject, Truckflyer, great argument by the way, the old "well you're a chump" rationale. Prisoner's Dilemma involves participants being given limited choices, in complete isolation. Wheras in RYR the RPG is specifically there to facilitate communication between Pilots, irrespective of its recognition by RYR, so there really is no similarity to Prisoner Dilemma.
Happy to discuss, if you want to give a name to your version, which involves people with multiple choices able to openly communicate, but choose not to. A name might be Pilot's Dilemma.
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 17:02.
Joined: Nov 2011
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 749
Likes: 6
From: Somewhere close to me
RyR are not the worst of these types of companies in Europe / EASA, there are companies that have much worse conditions than RyR have, and where the same safety issues apply.
There is some good reports here: More CAPA Resources | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Which shows a concerning trend.
Chunk, here is the scenario, your daughter is flying from Dublin to Rome tomorrow, however the FO for the flight is feeling ill.
So analyse the dilemma:
1. He can choose to call in sick, and not get paid.
The company will investigate him to check if he was really ill. Even nothing found, it might give negative influence on his future career.
2. He can choose to self-medicate / or do nothing, and go to work, because he needs the money to support his debts, family and kids.
3. He can call his company, and complain - and most likely get a reprimand / called in for tea and biscuits.
4. He can pretend he overslept / he did not hear the alarm, and see if the company will take any action against him.
Most people who have real "illness" of some kind, does not just have it one day off, normally will be 2-3 days and upwards, depending what the issue is.
Now of course, 99% of the pilots, will most likely choose option number 2!
Chunk, are you happy to let your daughter go on that flight, knowing that this happen?
It is easy to be self-serving, and argument that the FO should know better etc., however the day it happens, and !!!! hits the fan, it will be to late to complain, knowing we could have done something to improve conditions.
It is general culture in EASA Lo Co, to take calculated risks, the thought is, not a problem, we have 2 pilots, so even if something happens to one of them, there is a second one there to save the day!
But one day, as we know Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong!
And let's hope you don't come back on these forums complaining and crying than Chunk, when you discover that your arguments and assumptions was WJONG!
There is some good reports here: More CAPA Resources | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Which shows a concerning trend.
Chunk, here is the scenario, your daughter is flying from Dublin to Rome tomorrow, however the FO for the flight is feeling ill.
So analyse the dilemma:
1. He can choose to call in sick, and not get paid.
The company will investigate him to check if he was really ill. Even nothing found, it might give negative influence on his future career.
2. He can choose to self-medicate / or do nothing, and go to work, because he needs the money to support his debts, family and kids.
3. He can call his company, and complain - and most likely get a reprimand / called in for tea and biscuits.
4. He can pretend he overslept / he did not hear the alarm, and see if the company will take any action against him.
Most people who have real "illness" of some kind, does not just have it one day off, normally will be 2-3 days and upwards, depending what the issue is.
Now of course, 99% of the pilots, will most likely choose option number 2!
Chunk, are you happy to let your daughter go on that flight, knowing that this happen?
It is easy to be self-serving, and argument that the FO should know better etc., however the day it happens, and !!!! hits the fan, it will be to late to complain, knowing we could have done something to improve conditions.
It is general culture in EASA Lo Co, to take calculated risks, the thought is, not a problem, we have 2 pilots, so even if something happens to one of them, there is a second one there to save the day!
But one day, as we know Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong!
And let's hope you don't come back on these forums complaining and crying than Chunk, when you discover that your arguments and assumptions was WJONG!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
Truckflyer, I don't think the article mentioned being penalised career-wise for not turning up for work, it said they didn't get paid. Just like the millions of contractors everywhere that simply budget for the fact they don't get sick pay.
So why would anyone reading the article care?
I agree there is an issue, there is still a downward trend in Ts&Cs. But these articles won't convince anyone.
So why would anyone reading the article care?
I agree there is an issue, there is still a downward trend in Ts&Cs. But these articles won't convince anyone.
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 17:43.
Joined: Nov 2011
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 749
Likes: 6
From: Somewhere close to me
Of course you could budget for it, if you self-employed, you should get paid more than the normal employee, just for that reason, to budget for various costs.
It is supposed to be a tax benefit for RyR, as they save lots of money on various contributions they need to pay for an employee, however with ALL these Lo Co companies, the pay is the same as if you are employed, so that takes away any advantage to be self-employed.
Secondly a pilot can not choose to work for one company one month, and next another company, that is one of the basic criteria s to be self-employed. You are trained with one companies SOP's and are obliged by contract to only work for them!
Anyway, have a look at the Dutch tv program, 2 parts was made!
There is a bully culture in these companies, to either do what you are told, or leave! There is no 2 way communication, it is Der Fuhrer way or No Way!
I thought we ended that in 1945, it seems not!
It is supposed to be a tax benefit for RyR, as they save lots of money on various contributions they need to pay for an employee, however with ALL these Lo Co companies, the pay is the same as if you are employed, so that takes away any advantage to be self-employed.
Secondly a pilot can not choose to work for one company one month, and next another company, that is one of the basic criteria s to be self-employed. You are trained with one companies SOP's and are obliged by contract to only work for them!
Anyway, have a look at the Dutch tv program, 2 parts was made!
There is a bully culture in these companies, to either do what you are told, or leave! There is no 2 way communication, it is Der Fuhrer way or No Way!
I thought we ended that in 1945, it seems not!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
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From: UK
clunk
[QUOTE]The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?[quote]
My reading is that most other airlines dont charge Cabin Crew or their training, uniform, offer a basic wage, sick pay et whereas FR sorry crewlink offer SFA.
Not sure if thats FR bashing just a statement of where the Cabin Crew are.
I recently recall a bad day at my airport with snow, the likes of Monarch, Thomson etc were giving it a go. FR cancelled their flights. Someone at work said this was because the local bus company had also cancelled their services thus making it difficult for FR crew to get to work, whereas the likes of Mon/Thom CC can afford a car.... There was also a recent case where FR re-based their CC in an Italian airport with 1? days notice because their base had been closed to commercial traffic because of the conflict in a North African country. The flights were moved to an airport 90 mins away by road. I believe the crew were left to their own devices, whereas any other airline would have assisted them. I may be wrong sure someone will correct me if so.
FR are no different to many airlines, they could be a great employer, profits vv people
[QUOTE]The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?[quote]
My reading is that most other airlines dont charge Cabin Crew or their training, uniform, offer a basic wage, sick pay et whereas FR sorry crewlink offer SFA.
Not sure if thats FR bashing just a statement of where the Cabin Crew are.
I recently recall a bad day at my airport with snow, the likes of Monarch, Thomson etc were giving it a go. FR cancelled their flights. Someone at work said this was because the local bus company had also cancelled their services thus making it difficult for FR crew to get to work, whereas the likes of Mon/Thom CC can afford a car.... There was also a recent case where FR re-based their CC in an Italian airport with 1? days notice because their base had been closed to commercial traffic because of the conflict in a North African country. The flights were moved to an airport 90 mins away by road. I believe the crew were left to their own devices, whereas any other airline would have assisted them. I may be wrong sure someone will correct me if so.
FR are no different to many airlines, they could be a great employer, profits vv people
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 20th May 2013 at 18:20.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
'Highest Paid Profession'
MikeHotel152 - ridiculed and proven false by whom? You and Pprune?
...or can you point me in the direction of an official recantation?
As I said perception over fact. Readers of Pprune are not the ones that need to be convinced. The fact remains that 'Highest Paid Profession' is the general perception of the Pilot profession.
PS. I am being deliberately argumentative - I'm trying to see things from a non-pilot point of view, and the current arguments just don't present a good enough case. It's like reading those articles about GPs demanding more and more pay rises on top of their 100k+ base salary, its more likely to alienate support for their cause.
That 'official' statement was ridiculed and proven false.
...or can you point me in the direction of an official recantation?
As I said perception over fact. Readers of Pprune are not the ones that need to be convinced. The fact remains that 'Highest Paid Profession' is the general perception of the Pilot profession.
PS. I am being deliberately argumentative - I'm trying to see things from a non-pilot point of view, and the current arguments just don't present a good enough case. It's like reading those articles about GPs demanding more and more pay rises on top of their 100k+ base salary, its more likely to alienate support for their cause.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 287
Likes: 7
From: Exit stage right.
Racedo, the corollary of your argument is - are you a Judge? Tax Accountant? Business Law Expert?
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!
I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!
I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.
As for claiming you know a PIG................you could not identify every PIG, you could identify a few of the species which makes your claim that you know them a bit hollow.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Hampshire
Clunk - just skimming this one, suggesting that pilots are the highest paid profession and then mentioning GP's on 100k is laughable. I doubt there are many viewers of this thread making 100k and I know plenty of GP's and other doctors that aren't either! Back to the Daily Mail I think.
I'm sure there are plenty at RYR who are happy with their lot, for a multitude of reasons. Probably those who can afford to feed and house themselves (and families) and for whatever reason not have to worry unduly about not working and not getting paid. However, when people have to make a choice of going to work performing sub-optimally and not getting paid, it would appear that there is a conflict.
Whether RYR contracts are legal or not legal is one very complex debate, but they would seem to be in the favour of the employer, not the employee and apparently not optional - therefore some doubt springs to mind immediately.
If RYR offered those they recruited to choose between a permanent, statutory benefits contract at pay rate X and a contract position at pay rate Y then the issued would be closed.
I'm sure there are plenty at RYR who are happy with their lot, for a multitude of reasons. Probably those who can afford to feed and house themselves (and families) and for whatever reason not have to worry unduly about not working and not getting paid. However, when people have to make a choice of going to work performing sub-optimally and not getting paid, it would appear that there is a conflict.
Whether RYR contracts are legal or not legal is one very complex debate, but they would seem to be in the favour of the employer, not the employee and apparently not optional - therefore some doubt springs to mind immediately.
If RYR offered those they recruited to choose between a permanent, statutory benefits contract at pay rate X and a contract position at pay rate Y then the issued would be closed.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
Syntax error - my source is The Office for National Statistics, 2013. Also some interesting data here from 2012: Real wages up 62% on average over the past 25 years. Read more...
Pilots are in the highest paid occupation and have been for 25 years. FACT. At least that's what we're all told! There's no use denying it Syntax.
. There was a discussion on it a few months ago in Pprune, an article from the Gardian I think.
Whiskey Bravo, GP average salary 103,000 in 2011. Source : Office for National Statistics. Here's one of many articles from a few years ago...Are GPs on £100,000 underpaid? | Money | The Guardian
"Back to the daily mail"
You guys are cleary too busy earning the big bucks to read anything other than Pprune
Pilots are in the highest paid occupation and have been for 25 years. FACT. At least that's what we're all told! There's no use denying it Syntax.
. There was a discussion on it a few months ago in Pprune, an article from the Gardian I think.Whiskey Bravo, GP average salary 103,000 in 2011. Source : Office for National Statistics. Here's one of many articles from a few years ago...Are GPs on £100,000 underpaid? | Money | The Guardian
"Back to the daily mail"
You guys are cleary too busy earning the big bucks to read anything other than Pprune
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 21:29.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 395
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From: dublin
Pilot pay
Have to say the this pay topic and t and c topic splits me in two
When I am a pax I want my crew to be well rested happy with their pay high morale and content
When I am not a pax I just get jealous if they earn more that me ......
It's an odd one
But when I am in a plane at 30k feet you can name your price , just get me home safely I do not even care if you are on time
Some airlines just seem to push too hard on crew costs and operational efficiencies which is a worry ....
When I am a pax I want my crew to be well rested happy with their pay high morale and content
When I am not a pax I just get jealous if they earn more that me ......
It's an odd one
But when I am in a plane at 30k feet you can name your price , just get me home safely I do not even care if you are on time
Some airlines just seem to push too hard on crew costs and operational efficiencies which is a worry ....
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 502
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From: Up North….
This isn't about just the pay, its more abut the fear factor and the inability to express concern about safety without the fear of reprisal from the company management.
I would hope the passengers care about safety, since it is ultimately their own skin we are talking about.
Pilots should not be threatened with reprisals for speaking up about something they see as safety related. It is the regulator that decides if it is warranted or not, not the company, and the pilots should not be threatened for bringing their concerns to light.
I would hope the passengers care about safety, since it is ultimately their own skin we are talking about.
Pilots should not be threatened with reprisals for speaking up about something they see as safety related. It is the regulator that decides if it is warranted or not, not the company, and the pilots should not be threatened for bringing their concerns to light.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
felixthecat - Yes crew should be allowed to speak up about safety. But this current media attention isn't about safety, is it?
The perception is that Pilots dont like the contracts and are trying to use safety as leverage to improve their Ts&Cs.
This perception that Pilots would use safety as a bargaining chip is far more dangerous than any 'zero hour contract' - if Pilots think not having a pension/uniform/medical is a safety issue, then who's going to take them seriously in future when they need to raise a real safety issue?
RYR management have a history of heavy handedness, but I think MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip, and anyone who thinks it is should not be flying a plane.
Whether this perception is spin from RYR, or whether its just a badly handled attempt at unity from the RPG is irrelevant...perception over fact.
...of course, this is all yesterdays news now.
The perception is that Pilots dont like the contracts and are trying to use safety as leverage to improve their Ts&Cs.
This perception that Pilots would use safety as a bargaining chip is far more dangerous than any 'zero hour contract' - if Pilots think not having a pension/uniform/medical is a safety issue, then who's going to take them seriously in future when they need to raise a real safety issue?
RYR management have a history of heavy handedness, but I think MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip, and anyone who thinks it is should not be flying a plane.
Whether this perception is spin from RYR, or whether its just a badly handled attempt at unity from the RPG is irrelevant...perception over fact.
...of course, this is all yesterdays news now.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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From: UK
Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?
(a) pay for a type rating they couldn't afford,
(b) pay for a Breitling they couldn't afford, or
(c) in the case of Captains, pay for an ex-wife they couldn't afford
Then no, you are right MANTHRUST, we haven't learnt anything.
If Pilots turn up for duty sick because of company culture - that would be different. But, again that is not what the perception is....at the moment.
Last edited by clunk1001; 21st May 2013 at 10:47.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 502
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From: Up North….
If it is just perception as you say then why doesn't the company allow the pilots to make their point and have it disproved. This would give the company far more credibility than threatening them giving the perception that the company has something to hide.
If the safety culture in a company prevents pilots from calling sick for fear of reprimand then there is something wrong with that companies safety culture. Having read the Colgon crash I have yet to find any reference to Breitlings and the like…that smacks of smoke and mirrors…. I have however read about pilots having to claim milk tokens and work second jobs because their salaries are so low that was how they had to survive.
If the safety culture in a company prevents pilots from calling sick for fear of reprimand then there is something wrong with that companies safety culture. Having read the Colgon crash I have yet to find any reference to Breitlings and the like…that smacks of smoke and mirrors….
I have however read about pilots having to claim milk tokens and work second jobs because their salaries are so low that was how they had to survive.
Last edited by felixthecat; 21st May 2013 at 11:23.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
(c) in the case of Captains, pay for an ex-wife they couldn't afford
So are you saying it's Ok for F/O's to have a wife they can't afford, or Captain's to have husbands they can' afford????I sense an agenda, or at the very least an attempt at stereotyping.
Last edited by wiggy; 21st May 2013 at 11:32.