Ryanair accused of 'exploiting' staff
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This should resolve the issue, however there must be some action from HRMC and most likely some unions to make it stick once and for all:
HM Revenue & Customs: Work out if you're employed or self-employed
You are probably self-employed if you:
run your own business and take responsibility for its success or failure
have several customers at the same time
can decide how, when and where you do your work
are free to hire other people to do the work for you or help you at your own expense
provide the main items of equipment to do your work
You are probably employed if you:
have to do the work yourself
work for one person at a time, who is in charge of what you do and takes on the risks of the business
can be told how, when and where you do your work
have to work a set amount of hours
are paid a regular amount according to the hours you work, and get paid for working overtime - even if you do casual or part-time work, you can still be employed
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf
From this it is very clear, Ryanair pilots and other pilots can not be self-employed!
It is time somebody starts catching the tax evaders like RYR etc.
HM Revenue & Customs: Work out if you're employed or self-employed
You are probably self-employed if you:
run your own business and take responsibility for its success or failure
have several customers at the same time
can decide how, when and where you do your work
are free to hire other people to do the work for you or help you at your own expense
provide the main items of equipment to do your work
You are probably employed if you:
have to do the work yourself
work for one person at a time, who is in charge of what you do and takes on the risks of the business
can be told how, when and where you do your work
have to work a set amount of hours
are paid a regular amount according to the hours you work, and get paid for working overtime - even if you do casual or part-time work, you can still be employed
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf
From this it is very clear, Ryanair pilots and other pilots can not be self-employed!
It is time somebody starts catching the tax evaders like RYR etc.
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Re: Norwegian
A few key points missed that we wont dwell on. Outsourcing of pilots via contract agencies. Flagship 787 operation based in Thailand for cost reasons. 787 crews perhaps on worst LH contract in Europe, hopefully at some point this changes because it would become prime real estate, job wise.
But yes, I agree, they are a much better airline and employer in my own opinion but its not perfect.
A few key points missed that we wont dwell on. Outsourcing of pilots via contract agencies. Flagship 787 operation based in Thailand for cost reasons. 787 crews perhaps on worst LH contract in Europe, hopefully at some point this changes because it would become prime real estate, job wise.
But yes, I agree, they are a much better airline and employer in my own opinion but its not perfect.
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Sunnyjohn ok so they have a contract working for Ryanair through Crewlink but still have more or less the same terms as the others, if not Crewlink would find it very difficult retaining any cabincrew working for them. The reality on the line is the same.
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Truckflyer
The Ryanair contract pilots are not self employed. They are employees of a Ltd company that then supplies it's services to Ryanair. It may look like the same thing but they are not self employed and that is how Ryanair gets around it,
The Ryanair contract pilots are not self employed. They are employees of a Ltd company that then supplies it's services to Ryanair. It may look like the same thing but they are not self employed and that is how Ryanair gets around it,
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Truckflyer, each Ltd Co has around 3 pilots as directors and as they are employees they have to pay social contributions ( National Insurance ) both as an employer and as an employee.
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So it is an artificial made up company created solely for tax evasion by Ryanair and the recruitment agency.
As murky and twisted as it seems, it is really border line, as it is not a natural formed company, rather a company created of no own choice, but as requirement by Ryanair / crewing agency.
Am I correct to assume that if you refuse this, you will not be hired by Ryanair?
Still the Ryanair pilots, creating this company, are clearly working for only one company - which is Ryanair - sooner or later Ryanair will be found out, and they will be liable for whatever shortcomings that are there.
But knowing Ryanair, they probably have anticipated such a scenario by creating umbrella companies to protect themselves!
Mainly it is a clear failure by the pilots to unite - it becomes a bit like the prisoners dilemma - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
It would be so easy to resolve, if everybody could just agree without fear that somebody else would steal their jobs in fight for better TC's
As murky and twisted as it seems, it is really border line, as it is not a natural formed company, rather a company created of no own choice, but as requirement by Ryanair / crewing agency.
Am I correct to assume that if you refuse this, you will not be hired by Ryanair?
Still the Ryanair pilots, creating this company, are clearly working for only one company - which is Ryanair - sooner or later Ryanair will be found out, and they will be liable for whatever shortcomings that are there.
But knowing Ryanair, they probably have anticipated such a scenario by creating umbrella companies to protect themselves!
Mainly it is a clear failure by the pilots to unite - it becomes a bit like the prisoners dilemma - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
It would be so easy to resolve, if everybody could just agree without fear that somebody else would steal their jobs in fight for better TC's
Last edited by truckflyer; 19th May 2013 at 22:18.
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Fascinating Truckflyer that is to me as well, a repeated prisoners dilemma where you individually are up against the company that bit by bit reduce your t and c's but it is better to accept and still do the job than to disagree which means you lose your job resulting in even less than the reduction. Individually you are screwed.
The stag hunt game http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~bskyrms/b...s/StagHunt.pdf would do the trick if everybody would fo for the stag instead of the hare which keeps running away so far anyway
The stag hunt game http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~bskyrms/b...s/StagHunt.pdf would do the trick if everybody would fo for the stag instead of the hare which keeps running away so far anyway
Last edited by Pablo_Diablo; 19th May 2013 at 22:37.
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Yes interesting this one too.
There is an easy way to resolve all these issues, however what we thought was becoming our strength has become our weakness.
I do in many ways blame the EU for this too, they allowed an expansion of free movement of labour, prior to "new and poorer" countries had reach the required economical level, to be competing on a level playing field.
This link tells you everything:
List of sovereign states in Europe by GNI (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Use Ireland or UK as examples, it was around £36.000 - 37.000 the GDP, compare this with all the countries within the EU / Schengen and EEA, there is a major difference between North West vs South and North West vs East!
This creates a East - West surge, which benefits companies, as now we have increased the legal work force to include people from very low income countries, who will put pressure on reducing existing conditions both with regards to monetary rewards and TC's working conditions.
We have spent decades to create improved working conditions in the west, that was not influenced by Stalin or Franco - only to now have it reduced to rubble, because it has become a paradise for companies who want to employ cheap labour.
Now don't get this post wrong, however I do believe that much of the reason for this increased degradation of the profession, is because companies know with all the supply of pilots, from various backgrounds in Europe, it will be impossible for them to unite.
Example a RyR pilot from Poland or Romania, will be making much more than expected compared to their GNP, he is much less likely to want to unite with others, as he might be fairly happy with his conditions, compared to the alternatives he might otherwise have.
It is divide and conquer, mix it up enough, to make sure the work force will never be able to agree to unite.
You have to ask questions, if the EU lobbyists was working for corporations or for the good of the people, when they allowed such fast expansion of the EU, as it coming clear in many countries, that people are not happy with the current direction the EU is taking.
Such expansion should only have been allowed, when the margins of the GNP and social conditions in the countries would have become comparatively equal, upwards, instead of the current trend, where the wealthier countries are being dragged downwards, back in time, only to benefit corporations who wants to reduce their work force costs and increase their profits.
People worked hard for decades to build up a good social economic structure, pensions, health-care etc., only for it now to be torn completely apart by greedy companies looking at every loop-hole to exploit people.
If EU wanted to model themselves on the USA, I would have not had a problem, because in the USA, if you work in Florida, Texas or or some other state, you will more or less make the same money for the same job.
If you are working within the EU, there should be minimal differences on pay etc., and not like today, where you can make double or trippel your local pay, just be going to another country within the EU.
Ryanair are one of many companies in the EU, who have taken advantage of this. This is the main reason the EU and Euro is not working - the catch 22 for the companies here is, that the middle class of West Europe is decreasing, less people with money to buy products, less purchase power, and eventually it will come as a sting in the tail for many companies!
Cheap, Cheap and Cheap is good, but nothing is for free, sooner or later something has to give!
Within the EU, you have some countries giving kids pilot education for free, while others spend £100.000 or more! How can you be able to compete on a level playing field with those kind of differences?
There is an easy way to resolve all these issues, however what we thought was becoming our strength has become our weakness.
I do in many ways blame the EU for this too, they allowed an expansion of free movement of labour, prior to "new and poorer" countries had reach the required economical level, to be competing on a level playing field.
This link tells you everything:
List of sovereign states in Europe by GNI (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Use Ireland or UK as examples, it was around £36.000 - 37.000 the GDP, compare this with all the countries within the EU / Schengen and EEA, there is a major difference between North West vs South and North West vs East!
This creates a East - West surge, which benefits companies, as now we have increased the legal work force to include people from very low income countries, who will put pressure on reducing existing conditions both with regards to monetary rewards and TC's working conditions.
We have spent decades to create improved working conditions in the west, that was not influenced by Stalin or Franco - only to now have it reduced to rubble, because it has become a paradise for companies who want to employ cheap labour.
Now don't get this post wrong, however I do believe that much of the reason for this increased degradation of the profession, is because companies know with all the supply of pilots, from various backgrounds in Europe, it will be impossible for them to unite.
Example a RyR pilot from Poland or Romania, will be making much more than expected compared to their GNP, he is much less likely to want to unite with others, as he might be fairly happy with his conditions, compared to the alternatives he might otherwise have.
It is divide and conquer, mix it up enough, to make sure the work force will never be able to agree to unite.
You have to ask questions, if the EU lobbyists was working for corporations or for the good of the people, when they allowed such fast expansion of the EU, as it coming clear in many countries, that people are not happy with the current direction the EU is taking.
Such expansion should only have been allowed, when the margins of the GNP and social conditions in the countries would have become comparatively equal, upwards, instead of the current trend, where the wealthier countries are being dragged downwards, back in time, only to benefit corporations who wants to reduce their work force costs and increase their profits.
People worked hard for decades to build up a good social economic structure, pensions, health-care etc., only for it now to be torn completely apart by greedy companies looking at every loop-hole to exploit people.
If EU wanted to model themselves on the USA, I would have not had a problem, because in the USA, if you work in Florida, Texas or or some other state, you will more or less make the same money for the same job.
If you are working within the EU, there should be minimal differences on pay etc., and not like today, where you can make double or trippel your local pay, just be going to another country within the EU.
Ryanair are one of many companies in the EU, who have taken advantage of this. This is the main reason the EU and Euro is not working - the catch 22 for the companies here is, that the middle class of West Europe is decreasing, less people with money to buy products, less purchase power, and eventually it will come as a sting in the tail for many companies!
Cheap, Cheap and Cheap is good, but nothing is for free, sooner or later something has to give!
Within the EU, you have some countries giving kids pilot education for free, while others spend £100.000 or more! How can you be able to compete on a level playing field with those kind of differences?
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There's a lot of stuff I can't understand Ryanair getting away with (charging for online check in? Do I have an option?) But what really beggars belief is that self employed 'employees' are told which firm of accountants to use.
If I worked for RYR and they insisted I was 'self employed', I'd want to set myself up as a Cayman Islands based company, paid into a Leichstenstein bank account with accountants based in Dubai administering my day to day affairs and my Channel Islands based pension.
If I worked for RYR and they insisted I was 'self employed', I'd want to set myself up as a Cayman Islands based company, paid into a Leichstenstein bank account with accountants based in Dubai administering my day to day affairs and my Channel Islands based pension.
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The UK government is on a witch hunt for tax evasion at the moment due to the coffers being nearly empty. I wonder how long it will be before they catch on to whats happening within FR. They already know…its just a matter of time before they do something I feel.
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They definitely do know.
There are other considerations though. They probably won't do anything unless Ryanair is elevated to the status of Starbucks and Amazon, in other words, it needs to become a public enemy and receive the negative attention of the likes of the Daily Mail. I'm hoping this is about to happen.
There are other considerations though. They probably won't do anything unless Ryanair is elevated to the status of Starbucks and Amazon, in other words, it needs to become a public enemy and receive the negative attention of the likes of the Daily Mail. I'm hoping this is about to happen.
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Media attention? Headlines? I have a few for you :
God gave you feet - use them!
Safety put at risk? Nice try...
And this is not a prisoner dilemma at all, in any way shape or form - because in this game there is a 
door you and everyone else can simply walk through. Ryanair won't do much for its staff - but I'm sure it'll happily open that door for you to leave if you want to!
If you need help finding the door - its the same door you walked through in the first place!
Outrage : An employee in a company somewhere is unhappy
Shock : Ryanair pays all legal taxes, as usual
Horror : Ryanair Pilot earns 60k but his mate in BA earns 80k
Surprise : A company puts profit before staff
Revelation : Thousands made redundant this week in the UK face financial ruin. But never mind that - A girl in Ryanair is paid the same as a nurse!
God gave you feet - use them!
Safety put at risk? Nice try...
"CAA recommends all airlines are really nice to their staff to avoid certain catastrophic air disaster"
door you and everyone else can simply walk through. Ryanair won't do much for its staff - but I'm sure it'll happily open that door for you to leave if you want to!If you need help finding the door - its the same door you walked through in the first place!
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 08:30.
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but I'm sure it'll happily open that door for you to leave if you want to!
You sound like the Ryanair Information Minister. No matter what way you look at it this is exploiting peoples need to work in a time of high unemployment. Why shouldn't their shoddy employment practices have a light cast on them?
As for the pilots letter, it beggars belief for airline management to say that if a pilot signs a letter highlighting what they feel is a safety issue it is "gross misconduct". This hardly promotes a just safety culture. By the same token, if I report an accidental error that I make via ASR or MOR am I potentially going to be shown the door for gross misconduct too? Maybe I'll just not bother reporting it next time so that I still have a job next week. The IAA need to take a long hard look at this bullying culture of fear Ryanair have bred within their ranks.
Last edited by vrb03kt; 20th May 2013 at 08:55.
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Does it not put safety at risk by intimidating pilots to the stage that their jobs are at risk if they speak out about what they perceive as a safety issue?
If it is not a safety issue in the end it will be pointed out by the IAA and the airline will be proven right and be seen to promote a healthy safety culture.
Threatening pilots with recrimination and a threat of loss of their jobs is hardly conducive to a healthy flight safety culture. What does the airline have to hide if indeed these pilots are wrong and talking out of their proverbial?
If it is not a safety issue in the end it will be pointed out by the IAA and the airline will be proven right and be seen to promote a healthy safety culture.
Threatening pilots with recrimination and a threat of loss of their jobs is hardly conducive to a healthy flight safety culture. What does the airline have to hide if indeed these pilots are wrong and talking out of their proverbial?
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Raising public awareness of any airline's use (misuse?) of contractors is a good thing. And as company ethics is high on the public agenda there has never been a better time.
But, its all about perception over fact :
I have 3 questions :
Having recently been officially confirmed publicly as the 'Highest Paid Profession' -
1. Do you think ANYONE cares about Pilot pensions?
2. Do you thing ANYONE believes a Pilot's lack of pension is a safety issue? (other than the RPG)
Pilots waving their little 'safety' flags as a last ditch attempt for better Ts&Cs is a schoolboy tactic which most people can see through.
3. Do you think EVERYONE will question a Pilot's (all pilots) motives in future when they raise a safety concern? (legitimate or otherwise - see felixthecat's post)
So there's a
Can you tell me where there isn't a confusing, uncertain and unpredictable employment situation right now?!
PS. Thanks for my new title vrd03kt, kind of catchy. Says a lot about this thread that I side with RYR.
Note: I am in no way employed by, connected to, or affiliated with any European Airline, Irish or otherwise, and my views are entirely personal.
But, its all about perception over fact :
The contracted pilots have no pension scheme or medical insurance
Having recently been officially confirmed publicly as the 'Highest Paid Profession' -
1. Do you think ANYONE cares about Pilot pensions?
2. Do you thing ANYONE believes a Pilot's lack of pension is a safety issue? (other than the RPG)
if a pilot signs a letter highlighting what they feel is a safety issue
3. Do you think EVERYONE will question a Pilot's (all pilots) motives in future when they raise a safety concern? (legitimate or otherwise - see felixthecat's post)
So there's a
confusing, uncertain and unpredictable employment situation at Ryanair
PS. Thanks for my new title vrd03kt, kind of catchy. Says a lot about this thread that I side with RYR.
Note: I am in no way employed by, connected to, or affiliated with any European Airline, Irish or otherwise, and my views are entirely personal.
Last edited by clunk1001; 20th May 2013 at 11:10.
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Clunk
I note your disclaimer about not in anyway being connected to any European airline, i therefore either (your choice) a) do not believe you b) your are an internet troll........
The fact you in your words side with Ryanair, means you have some form of agenda?
There is no other airline in Western Europe that generates the amount of negative press from customers, employee's/suppliers and of course the media and you must ask why? its not envy of their success
Ryanair have radically altered the way airlines do business, some good, some bad, that Ryanair are profitable is not in doubt, like wise that their safety record to date given the scope and type of airports that they operate into, with only one hull loss is impressive.
Where the questions come is mainly their aggressive business practices, both with customers and its employee's/contractors.
This is a very large publicly quoted company and whilst it is understandable that it will fight wrongfully allegations to protect its name, it seems to have taken this to a new level of late, negative comment about the "Ryanair experience " are after all far from new.
All businesses need to generate profit if they are to grow and invest, charging a premium of what a services costs to provide is your profit, but there are different types of profit, Good & Bad if you like, providing a service for a profit when the customer walks away content is a good profit, make a profit from something where the customer walks away seething with rage is a bad profit.
I can see no justification for charging a credit card fee per person per sector, go to M&S and by five pairs of shoes you don't get five lots of credit card fee's, in fact you don't get any?
Likewise charging someone £60, again per person to print a ticket to use a service that they have already bought is in anyone book exploitation of the fact that they are trapped at the airport, no ticket no fly, this at a time when many airlines are moving to phone based app's to provide this function Easyjet, Norwegian,Jet2 amongst others.
So in summary you have to ask why they persist in this way with still hidden charges, wheel chair tax, ETS (don't even think the pay any yet) the reason is clear if Ryanair advertised the true cost of their product it would not really represent value, see a fare advertised and double it is not far off the mark these days, wouldn't happen at M&S or Aldi for that matter, good profit, great bad profit, bad long term.........
The fact you in your words side with Ryanair, means you have some form of agenda?
There is no other airline in Western Europe that generates the amount of negative press from customers, employee's/suppliers and of course the media and you must ask why? its not envy of their success
Ryanair have radically altered the way airlines do business, some good, some bad, that Ryanair are profitable is not in doubt, like wise that their safety record to date given the scope and type of airports that they operate into, with only one hull loss is impressive.
Where the questions come is mainly their aggressive business practices, both with customers and its employee's/contractors.
This is a very large publicly quoted company and whilst it is understandable that it will fight wrongfully allegations to protect its name, it seems to have taken this to a new level of late, negative comment about the "Ryanair experience " are after all far from new.
All businesses need to generate profit if they are to grow and invest, charging a premium of what a services costs to provide is your profit, but there are different types of profit, Good & Bad if you like, providing a service for a profit when the customer walks away content is a good profit, make a profit from something where the customer walks away seething with rage is a bad profit.
I can see no justification for charging a credit card fee per person per sector, go to M&S and by five pairs of shoes you don't get five lots of credit card fee's, in fact you don't get any?
Likewise charging someone £60, again per person to print a ticket to use a service that they have already bought is in anyone book exploitation of the fact that they are trapped at the airport, no ticket no fly, this at a time when many airlines are moving to phone based app's to provide this function Easyjet, Norwegian,Jet2 amongst others.
So in summary you have to ask why they persist in this way with still hidden charges, wheel chair tax, ETS (don't even think the pay any yet) the reason is clear if Ryanair advertised the true cost of their product it would not really represent value, see a fare advertised and double it is not far off the mark these days, wouldn't happen at M&S or Aldi for that matter, good profit, great bad profit, bad long term.........
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Why, if someone agrees with Ryanair, do they have to have an agenda? Or is it just that the agenda is different from yours, and therefore, wrong?
I'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!
I'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!