Industrial Action at Flybe?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As much as it pains me to say it there is some truth in what Benchmark & Imfedupofbleeting are saying...........those that accept the very low starting salary on the Dash as an F/O go in with their eyes open.
Saying that if all the airlines are doing this then there is little choice, yes you could through away the 80K of training you have just paid for and try a different job, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
The bottom line here is that if this thing goes to Acas/strike then this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public who are not aware of the difference in salaries between FlyBe and other airlines and who quite frankly don't give a t**s anyway.
Will it stop me fighting for a more industry standard wage ? Not a chance.
Saying that if all the airlines are doing this then there is little choice, yes you could through away the 80K of training you have just paid for and try a different job, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
The bottom line here is that if this thing goes to Acas/strike then this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public who are not aware of the difference in salaries between FlyBe and other airlines and who quite frankly don't give a t**s anyway.
Will it stop me fighting for a more industry standard wage ? Not a chance.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Honiton
Age: 47
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wages and inflation?
I think some people here have forgotten about the high level of inflation coupled with real-term pay cuts these guys have been experiencing. What might have been a salary that was tight a few years ago (or even months ago) could suddenly become a real struggle, particularly if cadets have a fixed interest loan which doesn't take into account the current low interest rate.
I personally have been finding even the fuel price rise affect my expendable income, let alone anything else.
I don't work for Flybe, but I for one sincerely hope that you guys get at least a pay rise rather than a pay cut!
I personally have been finding even the fuel price rise affect my expendable income, let alone anything else.
I don't work for Flybe, but I for one sincerely hope that you guys get at least a pay rise rather than a pay cut!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: At the whim of crewing
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with you Bullet190.
However... equally, when you start flight training, you don't necessarily know where you are going to end up - certainly more mentored and sponsored schemes for FlyBE exist now, and the cadets on these know full well what the starting salary is at FlyBE.
However, when I started my training, I wasn't lined up onto any particular airline and did it off my own back. So therefore, when I started the odds were equal as to whether I was going to BA, bmi, easyJet, FlyBE or anywhere else.
As my training progressed, it became increasingly clear that my 2 options were: 1/ FlyBE and be bonded for 3 years on the Dash. 2/ Ryanair and fork out for a type rating (which I fundamentally disagree with). So really, there was no option for me at all.
It hurts me to think of the guys I trained with now, some of them are taking back £4000 a month after tax, whereas if I have a good month, the most I can look for is under 1/2 of that.
You can adapt your living styles to suit - and I have. I can just about break even each month without saving any money - I have had to make sacrifices in order to do this (part of the reason my long term girlfriend left me) - I haven't taken a holiday since I started work in this company, I regularly turn down days out because I can't afford the petrol, and I cannot do anything outside of work that I want to do, because I just quite simply cannot afford it. So you can adapt your lifestyle to suit.
However, that's not the point at all. The point is that at the end of the day, we, as pilots, should not be worrying about not being able to fill up the car, pay bills, and at the same time worry about the cost of living. Especially not with the responsibility that is enstowed in us.
Just out of interest, I'm a year 3 FO now, shortly to become Year 4. I take home, on average £1800 a month... and this is how my salary goes, according to my last budget:
After Tax: 1800
Rent and bills: -650
Flight training loan: -500
2 Tanks of diesel petrol: -150
Assorted d/ds and various other expenses: -100
So if my maths is correct, that in turn, leaves me with £400 to play with for the rest of the month. Which I can do, but it certainly isn't comfortable to live with.
However... equally, when you start flight training, you don't necessarily know where you are going to end up - certainly more mentored and sponsored schemes for FlyBE exist now, and the cadets on these know full well what the starting salary is at FlyBE.
However, when I started my training, I wasn't lined up onto any particular airline and did it off my own back. So therefore, when I started the odds were equal as to whether I was going to BA, bmi, easyJet, FlyBE or anywhere else.
As my training progressed, it became increasingly clear that my 2 options were: 1/ FlyBE and be bonded for 3 years on the Dash. 2/ Ryanair and fork out for a type rating (which I fundamentally disagree with). So really, there was no option for me at all.
It hurts me to think of the guys I trained with now, some of them are taking back £4000 a month after tax, whereas if I have a good month, the most I can look for is under 1/2 of that.
You can adapt your living styles to suit - and I have. I can just about break even each month without saving any money - I have had to make sacrifices in order to do this (part of the reason my long term girlfriend left me) - I haven't taken a holiday since I started work in this company, I regularly turn down days out because I can't afford the petrol, and I cannot do anything outside of work that I want to do, because I just quite simply cannot afford it. So you can adapt your lifestyle to suit.
However, that's not the point at all. The point is that at the end of the day, we, as pilots, should not be worrying about not being able to fill up the car, pay bills, and at the same time worry about the cost of living. Especially not with the responsibility that is enstowed in us.
Just out of interest, I'm a year 3 FO now, shortly to become Year 4. I take home, on average £1800 a month... and this is how my salary goes, according to my last budget:
After Tax: 1800
Rent and bills: -650
Flight training loan: -500
2 Tanks of diesel petrol: -150
Assorted d/ds and various other expenses: -100
So if my maths is correct, that in turn, leaves me with £400 to play with for the rest of the month. Which I can do, but it certainly isn't comfortable to live with.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
assymetricdrift,
I hear you, many of us including myself have first hand experience of this. When I first started I was on even a worse deal than that but I knew what i was getting into.
The point is if you had turned down the job as has been suggested above you know there would be 10 more standing behind you ready to step in your shoes....some of which were born with a silver spoon and can afford to take the hit.
The general public don't give a monkeys about any of this though, you are a pilot with a great office view so there is no sympathy for you.
Of course they are also unaware of the massive bonuses that our leaders are awarding themselves, the fact that our leader earns more than BA's leader, has just received a 1 Mil interest loan and has just treated himself to an R8 to go with the Aston Martin. The fact that our chief pilot has just received an extra 8% but feels 2% is a good deal for us, I guess he's right because we recently had a year of 0% rise to help the airline out and we should be grateful shouldn't we ?
I hear you, many of us including myself have first hand experience of this. When I first started I was on even a worse deal than that but I knew what i was getting into.
The point is if you had turned down the job as has been suggested above you know there would be 10 more standing behind you ready to step in your shoes....some of which were born with a silver spoon and can afford to take the hit.
The general public don't give a monkeys about any of this though, you are a pilot with a great office view so there is no sympathy for you.
Of course they are also unaware of the massive bonuses that our leaders are awarding themselves, the fact that our leader earns more than BA's leader, has just received a 1 Mil interest loan and has just treated himself to an R8 to go with the Aston Martin. The fact that our chief pilot has just received an extra 8% but feels 2% is a good deal for us, I guess he's right because we recently had a year of 0% rise to help the airline out and we should be grateful shouldn't we ?
Thing is, when you do the training and look at industry average salaries it is well worth it.
Flybe has often led on to other companies such as Easy and the charter companies who pay reasonably. Due to this Flybe management have always kept the wages low.
However due to no industry movement for three years and the take over of BA Connect there are many people here now who look to a future with a growing company or have no option but to stay!
Management still know that as soon as the Easy door opens again the exodus will start again, so why increase the salary.
The arguemet is if you incease it then more will stay.
Management don't want this because they'd rather have new starters on the lowers salary levels.
Therefore in my opinion we are all banging our heads against a brick wall. It's great that we keep trying and I may be surprised, especially if we get to industrial action, but don't expect a 10% rise or similar.
Flybe has often led on to other companies such as Easy and the charter companies who pay reasonably. Due to this Flybe management have always kept the wages low.
However due to no industry movement for three years and the take over of BA Connect there are many people here now who look to a future with a growing company or have no option but to stay!
Management still know that as soon as the Easy door opens again the exodus will start again, so why increase the salary.
The arguemet is if you incease it then more will stay.
Management don't want this because they'd rather have new starters on the lowers salary levels.
Therefore in my opinion we are all banging our heads against a brick wall. It's great that we keep trying and I may be surprised, especially if we get to industrial action, but don't expect a 10% rise or similar.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Choppercopper99: poor show, a retraction of your innuendo is the best way to deal with your mistake.
Bullet190
this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public
It is irrelevant what the public think once the threat of industrial action puts them off booking flights. We don't have to win any PR war, only an economic one. Only when the cost of not dealing with our dispute is greater than the cost of dealing with it will we see any movement from the management. In other words we need to ballot for industrial action.
Bullet190
this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public
It is irrelevant what the public think once the threat of industrial action puts them off booking flights. We don't have to win any PR war, only an economic one. Only when the cost of not dealing with our dispute is greater than the cost of dealing with it will we see any movement from the management. In other words we need to ballot for industrial action.
Last edited by speedrestriction; 2nd Apr 2011 at 19:25.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Up Up and Away
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SR, that's exactly what I have been saying to my colleagues in the crew room and on the flight deck for ages. The management have a responsibility to the shareholders to run the airline for max profits. If they can can get aircrew to fly for less money, they will. They will not give up anything if they can help it, the only way is if they are forced to. Indeed some would say they are negligent in their responsibilities if they did.
Once the cost of a disgruntled workforce outweighs the cost of a decent settlement they will act, it's just business. This is why all these ballots with smoke, mirrors, recommendations, minor concessions etc. are a complete waste of time.
Once the cost of a disgruntled workforce outweighs the cost of a decent settlement they will act, it's just business. This is why all these ballots with smoke, mirrors, recommendations, minor concessions etc. are a complete waste of time.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People seem to be forgetting that the cost of living has increased rapidly over the last couple of years. I don't see anything wrong with expecting a pay increase in line with RPI. Afterall that is about what Balpa asked for is it not.
For those low paid Dash FOs particularly any increase in the cost of living will have a relatively large impact on their salaries.
So stop moaning about the moaners. Asking for a 10 or 20% pay rise isn't the same as expecting one. Anyone actually know how negotiating works?!
For those low paid Dash FOs particularly any increase in the cost of living will have a relatively large impact on their salaries.
So stop moaning about the moaners. Asking for a 10 or 20% pay rise isn't the same as expecting one. Anyone actually know how negotiating works?!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone think that we should aim for some kind of the negotiated improvement on flight duty pay or getting some kind of sector pay? That way, the more we work, the more we get paid. It would be a bit of a leveller between the fleets where workloads seem to differ and would encourage a good work ethic with regards to sickness etc (line for the company that one!).
Our measly £1.98 per hour means if I go to work tomorrow for my 9 hour shift I get £17 pre tax. If that was more like £30 or £50 I would be a little more motivated to work and my 85 hour roster would take on a slightly better meaning (especially if I comare it to someone else's 20 hour roster on a certain "once a day 9 to 5 fleet"!!!!
Any thoughts? What do Easy get per sector? I know BA is up at like £15 per sector.... Nice!!
Our measly £1.98 per hour means if I go to work tomorrow for my 9 hour shift I get £17 pre tax. If that was more like £30 or £50 I would be a little more motivated to work and my 85 hour roster would take on a slightly better meaning (especially if I comare it to someone else's 20 hour roster on a certain "once a day 9 to 5 fleet"!!!!
Any thoughts? What do Easy get per sector? I know BA is up at like £15 per sector.... Nice!!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"once a day 9 to 5 fleet"!!!!
Although to be honest most of that fleet have suffered the indignity of the Dash at some point in their Flybe life.
Sector pay - It was bandied about before but nobody would settle on a fair way of doing it.
What is needed is something like the Easy/Jet2 deal. Base sector pay of 'Arbitrary amount' for sectors of 'Arbitrary length'. Sectors over 'Arbitrary length' get 'Arbitrary amount' x 1.2 and sectors under 'Arbitrary length' get 'Arbitrary amount' x 0.8, for example.
So a 4 shorty sector day would get, say £20 x 4 x 0.8 = £64
A longy 2 sector day would get, say £20 x 2 x 1.2 = £48
Seems pretty fair to me and reflects the extra effort of 3 turnarounds as opposed to 1.
Plus a decent rate of flight pay.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies! Was a cheap shot meant totally in jest! Phrase coined by the drivers themselves!! The point was not to segregate or seperate, rather to bring together. What could be fairer than a system of base salaries and then an additional meaningful extra payment, relative to the amount of hours you put in. At present I can't really see a down side. Happy to be corrected thou!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Your Worst Nightmare
Age: 54
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BigJarv - in all seriousness though, have you forwarded your interest in an improvement in FD pay to the CC? The reps I know have given up on viewing PPrune because of all the personal attacks on their integrity. Why not talk to them directly about your aspirations, their mobile numbers and email addresses are on the Balpa forums under CC Contact Details
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is irrelevant what the public think once the threat of industrial action puts them off booking flights. We don't have to win any PR war, only an economic one. Only when the cost of not dealing with our dispute is greater than the cost of dealing with it will we see any movement from the management. In other words we need to ballot for industrial action.
have you ever been on strike ? What the public think and what Acas think are both very important. The CC member I spoke to recently also took the time to labor these points. It is very much a PR war !
I'm prepared for industrial action but we all need to understand the implications and be ready for them.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Castle Greyskull
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it becomes a PR battle then maybe they will finally explain Jim's ridiculous salary and share options, the directors 28% bonus and six figure share awards, the managers 10% pay rise/bonus (is this not correct?). What do we get........2%, no shares, no bonus!
How do we accept 5 years of real term pay cuts when there's so much money at the top?
How do we accept 5 years of real term pay cuts when there's so much money at the top?
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
No, thankfully I've never been on strike and by no means do I relish the prospect of standing on a picket line but I'm too long in the tooth and now too short of patience to stay on this merry-go-round of phony negotiation any longer.
I disagree with you about the requirements to win the PR battle. As skeletor alluded to, the management have as much to lose (if not more) in the media spotlight. All the pilot group has to do is force the situation, lets not overcomplicate our task.
SR
I disagree with you about the requirements to win the PR battle. As skeletor alluded to, the management have as much to lose (if not more) in the media spotlight. All the pilot group has to do is force the situation, lets not overcomplicate our task.
SR
Last edited by speedrestriction; 3rd Apr 2011 at 20:40.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: everywhere
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully from what i,ve heard from here...........we are all finally starting to grow a pair. Management for a long time been telling us we cant get ba and easjet salaries because we are a completely different business model. Ok that totally makes sense until you hear that our esteemed leader allegedly makes more money than willie walsh !!!! now that apart from sticking in my throat makes me totally ashamed for him T he company grew very quickly and became something we could have been so proud ie FLYBE but unfortunately it didnt. its treated like a small compant that it was but now has become big . Big company small minded and very greedy management What a complete shame !!!!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I disagree with you about the requirements to win the PR battle. As skeletor alluded to, the management have as much to lose (if not more) in the media spotlight. All the pilot group has to do is force the situation, lets not overcomplicate our task
They will use stuff like flying hours (not duty hours), the highest jet training Capt's salary, the total leave we get (not explaining bank holidays) etc etc. It will seem like we are a bunch of overpaid/under-worked ungrateful sods. This is the sort of stuff that makes the not so committed among us go back to work and break the union - hence the importance.
All I'm saying is don't just shout 'STRIKE', know what you are getting into and be prepared for whats to come.