easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

[clanger32]

Topslide,
Sorry but as a generalisation, that's horse**** of the highest order. Sure, there are several hundred no doubt whose sanity can rightly be questionned who DID start training during this downturn.

But what about the others who just happened to be IN training when the Maelstrom struck? People like me, who commenced training in probably the best ever environment for recruitment of low hour pilots and finished right in the thick of it? Bear in mind my former/current career is in the city with probably the one single organisation that you'd bet seeing this coming and WE didn't see it at the time I started training.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't stooped to join these schemes, but a catch all statement implying that all who HAVE signed up must have started their training in the current economic environment is plain daft.

[fastjetpilot]

Topslide

People in CTC's holdpool now, started training in Autumn 2007. CTC at that point had a 100% placement record, with eJ, BA, Jet2 and many others. They were growing quickly (maybe too quickly) to match requirements from those airlines, and offered something that opened up places to people who previously were unable to afford to train as a pilot. The money was unsecured. It was pretty much a guaranteed entry into the RHS of a jet. At that time there was no real evidence that there was going to be a recession.

ANY of you that say you would have turned this down are lying through your teeth. Get off your high horses and make a change instead of slagging these guys and girls off. Why would ANYONE work their arse off in some crappy job and complete their CPL over 5 or 6 years when this was an option.

The one thing I do agree with is that you would have to be a complete idiot to start training now or in the last year.

By getting what they deserve I hope you mean a FO job with some airline, whether it's TP or Jet and the oppurtunity to show people like you that actually, they make a dam good go at it. However, I think what you actually meant was bankruptcy, demoralisation and possible depression, suicide and in the future a crashed jet.

[TheBeak]

Hang on a minute, I wasn't refering to CTC trainees I was refering to the 20 Oxford trainees, one of whom was mentioned incorrectly by Old bloke on the CTC thread. My response was to him. I have no problem with CTC trainees, they are some of the only individuals who bother to get selected into this industry. What the Oxford people have done is not be selected into the industry however - they have bought their way in for the short term and have no doubt lowered Ts and Cs for the long term.

[fastjetpilot]

Well why didn't you say that in the first place instead of berating me for sticking up for CTC cadets. Engage brain before engaging mouth.

On your point, I agree.

However, I think even CTC cadets parents may have to stump up the £4k +VAT for the privilege of flying for eJ for 3 years, so TheOldMan could still have been referring to a CTC cadet.

[fischerflyer]

I have no problem with CTC trainees

Beak: CTC 'cadets' are made up of the "wings cadets" (who get selected) and the "iCP Cadets" (who just like OAA payout 70K for the course).

So whats the difference? OAA and CTC BOTH have people buying their way into flying....

[Pizzaro]

These schemes are just taking advantage of these people caught out by the recession and they stink. The only winners are airline accountants !!!!! It's just selling the industry down the pan. Lawyers ,doctors just wouldn't put up with this, aren't pilots professionals as well ????!!!!!

[R T Jones]

The iCP cadets, when they finish their cpl/ir then have to pay for AQC. Once that is completed, if they are of sufficient standard they go into the CTC ATP cadet holdpool, not the CTC Wings cadet holdpool... At least as far as I'm aware, that is how it works.

[BigNumber]

You cannot make a living doing a job others are willing to pay to do.

What is so hard to understand?

[FRying]

Whaaaat ? That is THE most ridiculous assertion I've had the chance to come across in a long time.

Bignumber, do you think no one would like to be a trader ? Well, guess what : they make millions. And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot, I can assure you ! Do you think no one would like to be an EZ manager ? And guess what : they make loads of money. And it doesn't take any more skills to be an EZ manager than to be a pilots, I can assure you !

[TheBeak]

And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot,

It takes zero skills but it does require a VERY, VERY thorough selection which starts with having the necessary academic qualifications which is generally nothing less that a first in Maths, Physics or something equally numerical. To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified. Sorry but there isn't. As vexed has said, traders make their companies money. Easy managers save their companies money. Pilots are like pieces of machinery, do as they are told and perform or they will be fixed or replaced.

[Night_fr8]

TheBeak
What a complete load of utter tripe comes from you via the keyboard.
Have you attempted the 2 day APP selection at OAA or the Longer selection process from CTC.
I think not, or if you have it is my considered opinion that you probably did not make the grade.
At OAA 30% pass selection on the first attempt with a further 5% upon being invited back for a resit of a failed section.
What you ellude to is "Where's you cheque ? your welcome !!" this does happen in less reputable training establishments, and even now with places to fill on courses and less of the folding stuff available OAA and CTC, do not just take anyone.
Both establishments have reputations to keep and believe its unfair to put a student through a course that they are likely to fail, money does not rule, selection does.

Others
We are not talking Slavery here, just the airlines adjusting to market forces and reducing costs.
EZY has to cut cost to remain profitable and survive, so I ask what percentage of EZY pilots are on cadet schemes, and have they been used in preference to contracted Pilots ?

As for Strike votes, industrial action and Union clout, in this day and age ALL are a means of reducing jobs and cutting the the companies profits to the bone, so ultimately the employer will find it more effective to make redundancies.
Keeping people in work is the name of the game, and if that means pay to fly being used or flexicrew, so be it.
Stay employed, dont rock the boat and wait for an upturn.
Negotiate when in a position of strength, not now when there are hundreds out there waiting to fill you shoes.
There is far too much "I want it now" attitude, wait a while your turn will come.

[TheBeak]

Have you attempted the 2 day APP selection at OAA or the Longer selection process from CTC.
I think not, or if you have it is my considered opinion that you probably did not make the grade.

Now that's funny small pen15, think what you like.

What you ellude to is "Where's you cheque ? your welcome !!" this does happen in less reputable training establishments,

So as I said:

To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified.

Contrary to popular belief you don't have to do it at CTC or Oxford.

For what it's worth I am bang on the money.

[v6g]

Originally Posted by TheBeak

And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot,

It takes zero skills but it does require a VERY, VERY thorough selection which starts with having the necessary academic qualifications which is generally nothing less that a first in Maths, Physics or something equally numerical. To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified. Sorry but there isn't. As vexed has said, traders make their companies money. Easy managers save their companies money. Pilots are like pieces of machinery, do as they are told and perform or they will be fixed or replaced.

+1

Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit. I would have thought most people would understand by now that pilots are sadly just an unfortunate operating cost for anyone wishing to do business as an airline.

[First.officer]

To quote V6g:-

"Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit"

Well, i guess requesting more direct routings, analysing Wx charts for the best winds, seeking out cheaper fuelling downroute, engaging with customers and focussing on their requirements during flight (biz-jet), negotiating cheaper handling and querying invoices and saving money - to name but a few items of the top of my head - well, i believe the above create a certain level of "value" albeit maybe small, and certainly will increase profit for the operation as a whole - or am i wrong and perhaps we should all just not be professionals and accept whatever we're given then V6g ??

[Night_fr8]

thebeak

Your not even near, let alone bang on the money.
In fact your more hot air than a furnace.

I suggest that you spend less time on Pprune and find something more usefull to do.

[FRying]

-1 !!!!

Managers don't add any value. Some just crunch numbers which takes the wit of a baker to do it except they're very good at playing with Excel (big deal !!!). Others conduct PR which takes a lot of communication skills (hey, just like a professional purser !). As I previously mentionned on another post, I've been a manager myself in a big corporation and I know what it takes to be one. Some believe they're changing the company. They really think they're it while, in fact, they're only doing what they're told (just like TheBeak asserted regarding pilots. The only difference is they don't have the lives of people in their hands).

Pilots don't do what they're told. They apply procedures. But this job is not (just) about applying procedures, which BTW is not that simple. It's about decision-making, it's about discriminating, it's about hindsight, it's about thinking quickly, it's about keeping cool, it's about prioritizing, it's about responsibility and it's about minding passengers throughout the flight in terms of safety and commercial satisfaction. It's also about abiding by regulatory rules that could send you before a judge (which most manager would never have to face).

Put a lousy, "one toothed dungaree wearing hick" pilot in a cockpit. You'll understand what kind of value added a standard or good pilot brings to an airline. Those boys(girls) you're talking about probably won't pass anything if they're that dumb. The PPL will be the greatest and last achievement. The CPL will be a mountain. The IR will be outerspace. Line training will simply be unreachable and a vague concept.

To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral.

I'm not familiar with this very specific training programme. But if that is true, our airlines, and Easyjet more specifically, are heading for terrible events in the future. NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A PILOT, let alone a good pilot !

I get to meet chaps who should have never set foot on an airplane. They simply haven't got the right "hardware", the right IQ, the right wit to fly those airplanes safely. Sure, when all works fine, they can cope. But then you immediately see those who get overwhelmed as soon as the situation gets a bit nasty.

Managers who are ready to put lousy pilots in their airline's cockpits remove value from their airline and should be laid off.

[TheBeak]

requesting more direct routings, analysing Wx charts for the best winds, seeking out cheaper fuelling downroute, engaging with customers

With a PPRUNE name like yours and a quote like the above I think we might have a real, live pilot in our midsts! That's what I meant by perform. They know how long legs take. The flight planning is done for you. Keep coming in behind time and above budget and as I say you will be fixed or replaced.

Your not even near, let alone bang on the money.
In fact your more hot air than a furnace.

I suggest that you spend less time on Pprune and find something more usefull to do.

I am bang on the money. I suggest you get your head in a good book and learn something about the queens English - it's you're not your, you berk.

Managers don't add any value.

No one said they did, they save money though - that's what they do with schemes like this. That doesn't mean I like them but it is what they do.

Pilots don't do what they're told. They apply procedures.

'They follow procedures' is a euphamism for 'they do what they are told.'

Put a lousy, "one toothed dungaree wearing hick" pilot in a cockpit. You'll understand what kind of value added a standard or good pilot brings to an airline. Those boys(girls) you're talking about probably won't pass anything if they're that dumb. The PPL will be the greatest and last achievement. The CPL will be a mountain. The IR will be outerspace. Line training will simply be unreachable and a vague concept.

Crikey I didn't mean to set up a tangent for people to go off on. My point was that anyone can train to be a pilot be they poor or rich, black or white, female or male and most importantly thick or clever. That doesn't mean they will get a job but it does mean the bastards will cloud the water of the pool we are all drowning in.

Managers who are ready to put lousy pilots in their airline's cockpits remove value from their airline and should be laid off.

No the lousy pilots that do not add value are the pilots who pay to fly because they can not add any other value - those are the 20 Oxford morons, not the CTC guys and girls (is that clear enough for you fastjetpilot?) Have we gone full circle and are we back on track with the thread?

[graviton]

Before you start correcting other folk’s grammar, and calling them berks, I suggest you put your own house in order.

The word is euphemism!

[clanger32]

Beak - so close, SO close...
firstly - you do NOT need a first in Maths to get into the banks. Far from it. You need luck, a decent education or -and here's the kicker, it's the most important of all - to KNOW someone who can get you in. I've spent my working life in the city - I know of what I speak. Of course, you're also right, that a first from Oxbridge will see a blank cheque land on your desk from most of the banks...but that's not the ONLY way.

You're absolutely spot on that we don't help ourselves by allowing anyone to train. However, be careful here. Oxford, for all their failings DO at least insist on a minimum of 5 GCSEs A-C and DO have (however inadequate it may be) a selection process which a LOT of people fail.

Yes, IMHO, the industry would be enormously helped by at the very least introducing a bare minimum qualification. Name ANY other profession where someone with no GCSEs/O levels can get in and hope to earn >£100k a year. (hope - not necessarily achieve!)

Pilots - sad as it is - do not add much value. They are almost without exception an addition to teh cost base and not much more. HOWEVER....where this industry has lost it's way is in the lack of understanding that they're a vital cog in the commercial offering. A good salesman could bolster load factors and add turnover....but lose the salesmen and the company continues. Lose the pilots and the company is dead....this is the part that has been forgotten.

Pilots are to aviation what Cacao is to Chocolatiers....and somehow, somewhere along the line, this got lost.

[MaxReheat]

'Pilots - sad as it is - do not add much value'. What utter bolleaux! No pilots (or cabin crew) - no airline. Period. Without flight crew the airline cannot function and that is the huge power that we have and collectively refuse to use.