RYANAIR thoughts
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Quote (originally posed by Aldente)
Quote:
are you suggesting that this thread should just be for pilots only ?
to which the reply was :-
Quote:
What does it say on the header at the top of the page ?
Perhaps, Bruce Wayne, you might like to ask the same question of The Real Slim Shady (as he has chosen rather conveniently to ignore my question) about his other half, Mrs Slim Shady (aka Abusing the Sky), who was particularly vociferous on here a few weeks back ....
Quote:
are you suggesting that this thread should just be for pilots only ?
to which the reply was :-
Quote:
What does it say on the header at the top of the page ?
Perhaps, Bruce Wayne, you might like to ask the same question of The Real Slim Shady (as he has chosen rather conveniently to ignore my question) about his other half, Mrs Slim Shady (aka Abusing the Sky), who was particularly vociferous on here a few weeks back ....
If you choose to take the comment out of the the contextual basis in which it was provided, I will do you the favour of a little in depth information:
Aviation, be you in management, flight deck, cabin crew, engineering, ops, wherever is not a career it is life commitment and we draw a degree of interest in sharing it with those who may not be in the industry, but have an interest in it.
As such, the industry professionals that frequent this site are glad to share information and answer questions and enlighten those not in the industry to the realities, both fair and harsh.
This thread, and others, relate to the situation concerning Ryanair and BALPA.
BALPA is the Pilots and Flight Engineers trade union.
PPRune is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network
Ryanair is the operator to which the thread relates to.
Indeed, it is welcome to compare how certain situations are handled within other industries. If provides food for thought and progress.
What is not welcomed is a dictatorial attitude from those outside of the industry toward those within it.
the grim repaDumb and Dumber(leo and slime).
Wel well ladies.Looks like leo and slim think that the threats,intimidation and bullying have won the day over ryanair pilots.If you believe that,then gents you are as dumb as i always knew you were.The dance is far from over,but i think you know that.
Wel well ladies.Looks like leo and slim think that the threats,intimidation and bullying have won the day over ryanair pilots.If you believe that,then gents you are as dumb as i always knew you were.The dance is far from over,but i think you know that.
if you think that professional flight crews, who, in the line of their work, are in control of 70 odd tonnes of aircraft with 190 odd lives inside it, are cowering and trembling over threats, intimidation and bullying, you are mis-informed.
Granted there are and will always be a few that provide amazement that they can tie their own shoe laces, they are however few and far between.
Pilots by their very nature are of a personality type that would not respond to such behaviour. After all, these professional people have the ultimate decision in an operational situation.
Any pilot that would be cowed by intimidation, threats and bullying would have a career cut very short.
That is why professional pilots are exactly that, professional pilots.
dannyalligaLeo,
2 replies, not 1 single answer.
Just arrogant lessons on how one should live his own lives and very short sighted and childish comments like "if you don't like it then leave".
FR management has always written in capital letters that FR pilots enjoy the best roster in the industry, well what happened to that? Why are they offering 5/3 now?
They have always said that FR pilots enjoy the best pay in the business, well why are they offering new and lower paid deals now?
2 replies, not 1 single answer.
Just arrogant lessons on how one should live his own lives and very short sighted and childish comments like "if you don't like it then leave".
FR management has always written in capital letters that FR pilots enjoy the best roster in the industry, well what happened to that? Why are they offering 5/3 now?
They have always said that FR pilots enjoy the best pay in the business, well why are they offering new and lower paid deals now?
Danny,
It cant be put any more plainly than leo with :
everyone else is firing, going under and laying off
You wont, because the industry as a whole is in a very difficult situation and there are more layoffs, people in hold pools than there are positions available.
If you think that contract terms are going to be posted within this thread, or any other, or discussion on future contract terms, based on an operational intention, you should seek psychiatric assistance.
As for BALPA...
the top article on their news and campaigns section...
One of the advantages of having a ‘voice’ in the workplace is the opportunity to influence the management decision making process. Through effective use of the BALPA web we can collect and collate your views. For example, it has recently been highlighted that there are differing views from the various pilot groups on the subject of wearing uniform in the simulator.
As a result, the Senior Training Captain has agreed that we should conduct a poll to establish the strength of feeling on this issue and the decision to wear uniform or not whilst conducting the line-orientated examination will be reconsidered in light of the results of the poll.
As a result, the Senior Training Captain has agreed that we should conduct a poll to establish the strength of feeling on this issue and the decision to wear uniform or not whilst conducting the line-orientated examination will be reconsidered in light of the results of the poll.
kidding me !!!What next; A campaign for Hawaiian shirt Friday ?
That's great for industry T&C's and worth the BALPA subscription fees, Dignity, Respect and flip flops !
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UK Freeze
Thanks for the reply Leo
Well, your offer is there for BAPLA to see and to take up if they feel so inclined,
and clearly links UK growth with that issue.
Would it not be more useful to allow transfer (temp or perm) to new/busy bases of surplus crew rather than SBY in UK? Like me, most would prefer to work, and don't feel that being idle helps us or the Company.
I would like the Company to succeed and make profits, and like an aircraft, surely we only contribute to generating revenue when we fly?
I hope that you see your way clear to restoring transfers/promotions for sound business reasons regardless of the BAPLA position.
Well, your offer is there for BAPLA to see and to take up if they feel so inclined,
and clearly links UK growth with that issue.
Would it not be more useful to allow transfer (temp or perm) to new/busy bases of surplus crew rather than SBY in UK? Like me, most would prefer to work, and don't feel that being idle helps us or the Company.
I would like the Company to succeed and make profits, and like an aircraft, surely we only contribute to generating revenue when we fly?
I hope that you see your way clear to restoring transfers/promotions for sound business reasons regardless of the BAPLA position.
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Interesting: Leo states he is not MOL or other high up management; yet he makes a specific statement about what "we" will do if BALPA issue a written letter valid for 10 years. Firstly does he/her have the authority to make such a company policy statement? Secondly, it is a idle bluff as the letter will never be issued. It is easy to lay down unacceptable or unrealistic conditions. It looks like you are making a genuine promise when in fact the opposite is true.
As has been said many times, a union is not the cavalry that will come riding in to save the oppressed masses. It is an umbrella under which employees can congregate and achieve some unity of purpose with professional backup. Any union would be asked for help by employees. Once asked they would trumpet their campaign. If the employees then decide not to go ahead with union representation it is they who withdraw their request. It is not the union offices who need to withdraw, as they've never been officially involved. It was not they who initiated the scenario.
I'm not a union member, nor RYR employee, but it seems that some on both sides are missing the point and using some dubious contentions to achieve other agendas. Some clear headed adult professional discussions on both sides might be the way forward, but it is for those on the inside to assess the chance of success.
For Leo, I ask again him to name 1 airline where the unions have driven it to the wall. As yet, after 2 years, no reply. Ask him to name airlines whose management have driven them to the wall; again silence but the history of the market is clear. Is it not the case that BALPA pilots at BA have agreed cost cutting measures and a reduction in T's & C's to help their company. Is this the sign of a group of pilots hell bent on company bankrupting extravagance? Was BALPA's agreement on massive financial help from the pilots' pension fund to the company a sign of the same? Was BALPA's agreement to reduce overall pension costs during the past 10 years, with introduction of new schemes, a sign of the same. I think not. Look at the number of managers who've been shifted out and you'll see that much of the massive overheads were created by management not pilots.
Once again, slowly, pilots are in it for the longterm, managers for short term profit and quick bonuses and then move on, even out of the industry. So, who has the better longterm interest at heart.
As has been said many times, a union is not the cavalry that will come riding in to save the oppressed masses. It is an umbrella under which employees can congregate and achieve some unity of purpose with professional backup. Any union would be asked for help by employees. Once asked they would trumpet their campaign. If the employees then decide not to go ahead with union representation it is they who withdraw their request. It is not the union offices who need to withdraw, as they've never been officially involved. It was not they who initiated the scenario.
I'm not a union member, nor RYR employee, but it seems that some on both sides are missing the point and using some dubious contentions to achieve other agendas. Some clear headed adult professional discussions on both sides might be the way forward, but it is for those on the inside to assess the chance of success.
For Leo, I ask again him to name 1 airline where the unions have driven it to the wall. As yet, after 2 years, no reply. Ask him to name airlines whose management have driven them to the wall; again silence but the history of the market is clear. Is it not the case that BALPA pilots at BA have agreed cost cutting measures and a reduction in T's & C's to help their company. Is this the sign of a group of pilots hell bent on company bankrupting extravagance? Was BALPA's agreement on massive financial help from the pilots' pension fund to the company a sign of the same? Was BALPA's agreement to reduce overall pension costs during the past 10 years, with introduction of new schemes, a sign of the same. I think not. Look at the number of managers who've been shifted out and you'll see that much of the massive overheads were created by management not pilots.
Once again, slowly, pilots are in it for the longterm, managers for short term profit and quick bonuses and then move on, even out of the industry. So, who has the better longterm interest at heart.
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RAT
I don't believe that there exists an underlying contempt for the concept of a collective bargaining unit, or some form of professional association and your comments are perfectly understandable.
The difficulty lies in the assumption that BAPLA have some God given right to represent the pilot force and have some higher plane morality than airline management ( any airline) to boot.
Furthermore, the hopes of the bewildered massed ranks that BAPLA will be the cavalry riding over the hill must have been generated either by BAPLA outpourings or the ralllying cries of the brainwashed dimwits a la Dim Sleeper.
What has reinforced the position of the anti BAPLA camp is the abjectly inappropriate, and terminally stupid, timing of their dignity and respect campaign: when their members in BA and Virgin are struggling, their members in bmi are looking over their shoulders at the LH takeover wondering what will happen with their jobs and TFly are are taking cuts it begs the question about the sanity of certain BAPLA staff in London.
The perception that BAPLA is a one trick (BA) pony will not vanish overnight: a more effective solution for collective representation in other airlines via a less contentious negotiating partner may succeed at some point, but the BAPLA umbrella has too many holes in it for it ever to be the panacea some claim it is.
I don't believe that there exists an underlying contempt for the concept of a collective bargaining unit, or some form of professional association and your comments are perfectly understandable.
The difficulty lies in the assumption that BAPLA have some God given right to represent the pilot force and have some higher plane morality than airline management ( any airline) to boot.
Furthermore, the hopes of the bewildered massed ranks that BAPLA will be the cavalry riding over the hill must have been generated either by BAPLA outpourings or the ralllying cries of the brainwashed dimwits a la Dim Sleeper.
What has reinforced the position of the anti BAPLA camp is the abjectly inappropriate, and terminally stupid, timing of their dignity and respect campaign: when their members in BA and Virgin are struggling, their members in bmi are looking over their shoulders at the LH takeover wondering what will happen with their jobs and TFly are are taking cuts it begs the question about the sanity of certain BAPLA staff in London.
The perception that BAPLA is a one trick (BA) pony will not vanish overnight: a more effective solution for collective representation in other airlines via a less contentious negotiating partner may succeed at some point, but the BAPLA umbrella has too many holes in it for it ever to be the panacea some claim it is.
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For Leo, I ask again him to name 1 airline where the unions have driven it to the wall
Eastern:
January 18, 1991. A date which will live in Union Infamy. That is the day that Eastern Airlines expired, with it's last gasps of tortured breath. That is also the day that the Eastern Employee Unions declared "Victory." That is the day that they celebrate, the day they "won the war" against Frank Lorenzo.
Ernie Mailhot was a ramp worker and cleaner at Eastern Airlines and a "strike staff coordinator for International Association of Machinists (IAM) Local Lodge 1018 from December 1989 to December 1990." He declared the demise of Eastern Airlines to be a "victory" for all union workers everywhere.
Here is an excerpt, from an article by Mr. Mailhot, which was entitled The Eastern Strike Was a Victory for Workers:
'Our slogan became that we would last "one day longer" than Frank Lorenzo. This meant that we would never let Eastern run a profitable airline as long as it operated with scab labor. We knew that by achieving that goal, we would help set an example for every other working person in the United States and internationally - our real family, not the "Eastern family."
After 686 days on strike against Eastern Airlines, rank- and-file members of the International Association of Machinists (IAM) and our supporters registered the final piece of our victory against the union-busting drive of the employers when the carrier folded at midnight on January 18, 1991.'
United:
When the IAM (a union comprised of ground service workers and mechanics) failed to approve the loan guarantee (while all other unions approved the loan guarantee), the application was rejected in late 2002 and the company was forced to seek debtor-in-possession financing from commercial sources to cover the expected future losses.
United tried several times to obtain the government loans, even enlisting several congressmen and senators for help. The government rejected the application claiming United "could probably obtain the $2 billion in financing it needs to emerge from protection without a federal loan guarantee."
Unable to secure additional capital, UAL Corporation filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in December 2002
Quote:
"[...] thinking of the Kamikaze Union leaders. That is why they deliberately drop bombs on their own ships----Because it is better to destroy jobs, than it is to allow anyone to work of their own free will, without a union contract.
[...] that unions do not create and protect jobs----they destroy them.
Is it any wonder that union membership in the United States has declined from a high of about 32%, in the mid-1950s, to a low of about 8% today, in the private sector? One can only hope that the unions will keep on "winning" those kinds of victories, since the wealth, size and prosperity of the American Middle Class seems to keep growing and expanding in reverse correlation to that decline in union membership"
There are many cases over the course of aviation history where union action has forced airlines to seek Chapter 11.
Granted, union action has not been the sole cause, however, union action has been a significant contributory factor in seeking Chapter 11.
A Pyhrric Victory, but a victory none the less.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 6th Aug 2009 at 15:51.
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Granted, union action has not been the sole cause, however, union action has been a significant contributory factor in seeking Chapter 11.
...and the real winners and losers are???
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As per previously stated, if you are so unhappy, why don't you seek an alternative position with another operator ?
I am an adult person in the first place, I teach my kids that if they find something is wrong they should do everything they can to make things better and to improve...not run away like a kid, which is the only thing some of you (maybe the same person or bunch of management buddies at this point) seem to be able to suggest.
You are obviously not fathers/mothers and if you are I don't want to imagine the kind of education you are able to pass along to children....
You wont, because the industry as a whole is in a very difficult situation and there are more layoffs, people in hold pools than there are positions available.
It's easy to have the lowest fares and lowest base costs with this kind of cheap treatment of your own workforce.
If you think that contract terms are going to be posted within this thread, or any other, or discussion on future contract terms, based on an operational intention, you should seek psychiatric assistance.
When it makes them look cool to say we enjoy the best 5/4 roster they publish it on their website but when they open new bases with 5/3 it all suddenly becomes all silent.
Even more silence when it comes to making public the fact that each base has different T&C's and that BRK contracts are also getting worse and worse.
Many airlines publish their T&C's , EasyJet just to name one....are they all crazy psycho's like you suggest?
In your eyes it's normal to come here and lie about almost everything, to insult posters, to give out misleading info but it's psycho to talk about normal working matters like T&C's.....unless you've got something to hide of course.
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This is probably the only venue where we can have a discussion about T&C's because otherwise they are generally just imposed upon employees and withheld from the public when it best suits management.
Did anyone grab you, tie you to a chair, torture you, force you to sign a Ryanair contract?
Or did you fill in an application form, wait for an invitation to a sim assessment, turn up in your clean suit, shiny shoes clutching your licence, medical and logbook, climb in the sim and fly the machine to the best of your ability?
Did you tell the HR guy when he asked you to choose 3 bases which ones you preferred, subject to vacancies?
Did you sign the contract you were offered? Did anyone force you to do this?
If you don't like the T & Cs you shouldn't have signed the contract: simples !
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When reading the postings from TRSS's ilk, it's almost like they want to return to the Victorian school of industrial relations. The mind boggles 
I only hope the more impressionable won't be taken in by their deeply naive ideas.
Yours sincerely, Barden
[- Better paid, work less and massively better pension provision than any FR pilot - and not a BA pilot! Want to mess with my terms and conditions? Speak to the union.]
I only hope the more impressionable won't be taken in by their deeply naive ideas.
Yours sincerely, Barden
[- Better paid, work less and massively better pension provision than any FR pilot - and not a BA pilot! Want to mess with my terms and conditions? Speak to the union.]
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Is`t it time you guys called a truce? your going round in circles here. There is some good sense (Bruce is right about the unions) and there is a lot of ****e.
At best its not union - bashing (old fashioned emotive term!) but hard bitten realism v a bit of misguided optimism.
When Dan Air was taken over BALPA supported BA s highly selective `rescue`.BA told BALPA "accept it or we bin the lot! Did BALPA stand up and say "try it?" did thye try to call BAs bluff.No. I was told " when we told you on joining BALPA at the sweet age of 19 that seniority was carved in tablets of stone...........we were only kidding".
Those of us impertinant enough to take BA to the Industial Tribunal (and win!)were a constant source of embarrassment to BALPA and they kept on trying to make us settle (for pathetic sums!).
When things are going well for pilots then collective bargaining is good and it might as well be BALPA as any other union. But when things get tough do not expect them to stick their necks out!
They will however, continue to take from you one of the highest union contributions on record!
Now, why dont those of you who have a job get on with it and enjoy your paid days off with your families.
And let those of us who dont have that luxury, do the best we can.
I for one wont spend my time off following endless scrapping here!!
At best its not union - bashing (old fashioned emotive term!) but hard bitten realism v a bit of misguided optimism.
When Dan Air was taken over BALPA supported BA s highly selective `rescue`.BA told BALPA "accept it or we bin the lot! Did BALPA stand up and say "try it?" did thye try to call BAs bluff.No. I was told " when we told you on joining BALPA at the sweet age of 19 that seniority was carved in tablets of stone...........we were only kidding".
Those of us impertinant enough to take BA to the Industial Tribunal (and win!)were a constant source of embarrassment to BALPA and they kept on trying to make us settle (for pathetic sums!).
When things are going well for pilots then collective bargaining is good and it might as well be BALPA as any other union. But when things get tough do not expect them to stick their necks out!
They will however, continue to take from you one of the highest union contributions on record!
Now, why dont those of you who have a job get on with it and enjoy your paid days off with your families.
And let those of us who dont have that luxury, do the best we can.
I for one wont spend my time off following endless scrapping here!!
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Albert's young Prince and a rat on the mat.
Better paid, work less and massively better pension provision than any FR pilot - and not a BA pilot! Want to mess with my terms and conditions? Speak to the union.
RAT 5, the reason I don't respond to you more frequently is that you're one singularly miserable individual who manages to depress me at the very sight of your user ID. I can only wonder at how bleak the world must seem from behind your eyes. However, we're here now so lets have a closer look at your latest intellectual bowel movement.
I ask again him to name 1 airline where the unions have driven it to the wall
RAT 5 provides us with a useful foretaste of what things might be like here in €urope were organisations like BLAPA to have their way. The US airline industry founders in the perpetual state of adversarial conflict that exists between management and labor.(sic) This presupposes the sort of leadership that slithers to the surface of American pilot's unions, and defines in turn the sort of crisis management, toe-cutting, dockyard thuggery sort of management best suited to deal with such a threat. It astonishes me that any American aircraft fly at all, with so much negative energy expended on the conduct of such an inherently dysfunctional relationship.
RAT 5 would have us believe that it's only ever bad management, that oft-heard and somewhat forlorn chirping of the Dodo, which is singularly responsible for airline failures or, to put it within the reach of his shrinking grasp, pilots good, management bad. As in life, RAT 5, such moronic oversimplifications are always disingenuous. That you sight BLAPA's 'successes' at British Airways as the demonstration of their usefulness, is entirely devoid of meaning. I fully acknowledge that, for the Pilots of British Airways, BLAPA provide value for money, but then they would do, wouldn't they. BLAPA exists for the benefit of BA and, increasingly, themselves. Besides, flag carriers are untouchable. Or rather, they were.
They say that in order for you to consider yourself a nation, you require three things. A flag, a football team and an airline. The trouble is that the first two are cheap and easily made successful. So too is an airline, if you throw endless sums of money at it. As Aer Lingus has found out, and British Airways is soon to find, though, it becomes a bit trickier if the airline in question is infested with recalcitrant unions absolutely opposed to change and you're supposed to turn a profit at the same time.
Aer Lingus has recently appointed their undertaker of choice in the form of Christoph (Dr. Death) Mueller. So committed is he to the future of Aer Lingus, Dr. Death has even elected not to relocate to Dublin, preferring instead to run the final few months of Aer Lingus from Bruxelles. Far better to watch from the safety of distance I've always thought too, Christoph.
Meanwhile at British Airways, our Willie is gloving up for the summer fight with BASSA, the union that angries up the blood of the overweight, middle aged frumps and clipboard queens who sling the rubber chicken dinners at FL370. They have permitted their egos to be massaged by BASSA over the years to the point whereby they think they're equivalently as valuable as pilots, and need to be treated accordingly. I'm afraid they're in for a very, very rude shock in the days ahead. I've never seen the results of an Irish timber wolf let loose in a coop full of boiling hens, but I'd reckon the feathers are going to fly.
Danny, change is a fact of life. Perhaps not in Monaco, but in the real world you need to adapt or perish. Which one looks more likely for you, would you say?
True, the industry is in a difficulti situation also because there are companies that don't play a fair game
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but in the real world you need to adapt or perish
Easy to say:
let's have this conversation again in a year and see who's left standing, shall we?
This way your above comment only makes you look very very short sighted because the world you are depicting and fighting for is very very sad...especially for the generations to come.
To what do you attribute the opportunity you've been given in flying for Ryanair?
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When reading the postings from TRSS's ilk, it's almost like they want to return to the Victorian school of industrial relations. The mind boggles
I only hope the more impressionable won't be taken in by their deeply naive ideas.
I only hope the more impressionable won't be taken in by their deeply naive ideas.
No one is suggesting returning to feudalism: whingers like DannyA had the option of not signing the contract. Signing up, agreeing the terms and then moaning here doesn't change the self evident: he did it of his own free will.
If he doesn't like it now, he has 2 choices: leave or put with what he signed up to. The fact that his Ts and Cs aren't the same as the original just shows that he didn't NB the terms in the contract that allowed for change.
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he has 2 choices: leave or put with what he signed up to.
There are other options, especially for free thinking people who live in the modern era and who have ready a few history books and been around a while...
One other option for instance?Do our best to make FR a better work place not only for the beancounters but also for those who made this incredible boom possible.
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Danny,
So you *are* happy then ?
Post #1 of this thread by Dannyalliga
and relating to BALPA recognition campaign:
There is a world of difference between "running away like a kid" and walking away.
I really do not see where Paternal / Maternal skills come into the discussion.
Companies don't play a fair game. A business is about one thing and one thing only "profit margin". It is not an exercises in socialism, or democracy. To even bring that into the equation is a tad naive.
If a company was a democratic entity, it simply would not exist, decisions would never be made as the continual debate and democratic process in large organisation would consume the time and energies of the staff from doing what they are employed to do.
This is why companies have a hierarchal structure.
so you have a derisory view of you colleagues, based on their level of experience or cultural origins !
yet you quote ..
That should make for a *Great* CRM environment ! mmmmmm !
You managed to miss the point by a country mile Danny.
A contract is an agreement between the signatory parties, if you are not a signatory, it doesn't concern you.
In the same way, your contract doesn't concern me, and no one would expect you to post *your* contractual terms in a public forum.
To suggest otherwise indicates a complete lack of understanding of a commercial environment.
I did not suggest that anyone was a crazy psycho.
I stated, and I will reiterate
I suggest you re-read that statement, I have highlighted the key points in bold.
hint: see note above regarding contracts and commercial practises.
Now, I suggested that if *you* thought that was going to happen then you *should* seek psychiatric assistance.
So by reasonable deduction we can determine that you feel *you* have issues of self evaluation of being a "crazy psycho".
There was no mention of sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies or accusation. Merely a suggestion that if *you* anticipated that something would happen, where clearly it will not, then perhaps there may be an underlying issue that maybe resolved with a specialist in the field.
Psychiatrists deal with issues from smoking cessation, to sleep disorders, to OCD's, to bereavement, to paranoid schizophrenia, to self harm to psychopathic tendencies.
In short, I never said crazy psycho, but if the shoe fits...
As for the intimation:
I don't think you will find any reference to support the assertion of acceptance of lies, insults, misinformation. In fact you will find that i am for open even handed debate, that includes, facts without insults and factual information.
Your assertion of having something to hide is the last straw of the militant with no argument to support.
For the record, I hold a commercial licence, I am all for better T&C's, not just for pilots but across the industry. What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far.
As you can agree, it's a tough industry right now..
If one group gets an improvement in T&C's, everyone wants an increase in T&C's too.
Other unions will follow suit for their members on the back of it.
That drives up the operating overhead, a cost which can only be passed on to the customer, which makes the company less competetive, which drives a reduction in its revenue, which makes the company less economically viable.
Are you getting the picture here ?
Do you really think a time when the vast majority of operators are clinging to existance is a good time for a union to launch a campaign for better T&C's ?
Really, honestly, do you ?
So you *are* happy then ?
Post #1 of this thread by Dannyalliga
I hope that the majority of the Ryanair pilots will open their eyes and stick together this time regardless of their nationality, contract, base and personal views of BALPA because this could be the last chance for all of us to show those in charge that we are not fat and happy as they like to picture us
I also hope that BALPA will be wise enough and take this whole recognition issue well outside the UK borders because this is the first European battle of this kind and the more international it becomes the stronger the support will be as well as the media coverage.
I really do not see where Paternal / Maternal skills come into the discussion.
Companies don't play a fair game. A business is about one thing and one thing only "profit margin". It is not an exercises in socialism, or democracy. To even bring that into the equation is a tad naive.
If a company was a democratic entity, it simply would not exist, decisions would never be made as the continual debate and democratic process in large organisation would consume the time and energies of the staff from doing what they are employed to do.
This is why companies have a hierarchal structure.
that employ 200 hours self sponsored and easily manipulated 20 years old F/O's and almost only eastern European self sponsored cheap and mostly rude F/A's and so on and on....
yet you quote ..
stick together this time regardless of their nationality
This is probably the only venue where we can have a discussion about T&C's because otherwise they are generally just imposed upon employees and withheld from the public when it best suits management.
A contract is an agreement between the signatory parties, if you are not a signatory, it doesn't concern you.
In the same way, your contract doesn't concern me, and no one would expect you to post *your* contractual terms in a public forum.
To suggest otherwise indicates a complete lack of understanding of a commercial environment.
are they all crazy psycho's like you suggest
I stated, and I will reiterate
If you think that contract terms are going to be posted within this thread, or any other, or discussion on future contract terms, based on an operational intention, you should seek psychiatric assistance.
hint: see note above regarding contracts and commercial practises.
Now, I suggested that if *you* thought that was going to happen then you *should* seek psychiatric assistance.
So by reasonable deduction we can determine that you feel *you* have issues of self evaluation of being a "crazy psycho".
There was no mention of sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies or accusation. Merely a suggestion that if *you* anticipated that something would happen, where clearly it will not, then perhaps there may be an underlying issue that maybe resolved with a specialist in the field.
Psychiatrists deal with issues from smoking cessation, to sleep disorders, to OCD's, to bereavement, to paranoid schizophrenia, to self harm to psychopathic tendencies.
In short, I never said crazy psycho, but if the shoe fits...
As for the intimation:
In your eyes it's normal to come here and lie about almost everything, to insult posters, to give out misleading info but it's psycho to talk about normal working matters like T&C's.....unless you've got something to hide of course.
Your assertion of having something to hide is the last straw of the militant with no argument to support.
For the record, I hold a commercial licence, I am all for better T&C's, not just for pilots but across the industry. What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far.
As you can agree, it's a tough industry right now..
If one group gets an improvement in T&C's, everyone wants an increase in T&C's too.
Other unions will follow suit for their members on the back of it.
That drives up the operating overhead, a cost which can only be passed on to the customer, which makes the company less competetive, which drives a reduction in its revenue, which makes the company less economically viable.
Are you getting the picture here ?
Do you really think a time when the vast majority of operators are clinging to existance is a good time for a union to launch a campaign for better T&C's ?
Really, honestly, do you ?
[...] Together with machinists union officials, that's just what the pilots union brass did.
To get what they wanted, they repeatedly threatened illegal strikes and engaged in illegal work slowdowns, as Wall Street Journal editor Holman Jenkins recalled in a May 25 column.
[...] then-ALPA chief Rick Dubinsky was still bragging about this strategy, Mr. Jenkins added. [...] Mr. Dubinsky famously told United management:
To get what they wanted, they repeatedly threatened illegal strikes and engaged in illegal work slowdowns, as Wall Street Journal editor Holman Jenkins recalled in a May 25 column.
[...] then-ALPA chief Rick Dubinsky was still bragging about this strategy, Mr. Jenkins added. [...] Mr. Dubinsky famously told United management:
"We don't want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 6th Aug 2009 at 16:18.
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Flyingstig:
Now, why dont those of you who have a job get on with it and enjoy your paid days off with your families.
And let those of us who dont have that luxury, do the best we can.
Now, why dont those of you who have a job get on with it and enjoy your paid days off with your families.
And let those of us who dont have that luxury, do the best we can.
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Monarch to lay off 40 pilots !! announced 2 days ago.
EAT on strike. (Today)
BA in the biggest financial crisis since before 9/11.
And still no apology from al446.
Whats the world coming to ?
EAT on strike. (Today)
BA in the biggest financial crisis since before 9/11.
And still no apology from al446.
Whats the world coming to ?
You will never get an apology from the likes of al446. They are a very special breed of living beings and they will never understand the likes of us daft pilots.
I have had experience of unions from BALPA to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and have seen some amazing displays of intransigence.
We all like to think that we have this great fellowship of the skies until the unions take over.
I will give you one great example of this.
I did an annual line-check on a crew from JFK - SJU. My next duty was to deadhead from SJU - MIA to pick up a DC-10 that had been on heavy maintenance.
We take a 90 minute delay from JFK due to a rather large Cb.
The result is that I miss the company schedule from SJU to MIA but, no matter, Eastern go to MIA at least once an hour.
I present myself at the Eastern check-in desk with my ID and ask if I can possibly deadhead to MIA on the jumpseat. "Go talk to the captain" says she so I present myself in the cockpit and ask if I might deadhead with them (it was an A300 by the way).
The captain asked me if I was a member of ALPA? "Sorry, said I, we have our own in-company union and my Teamsters membership has just run out". "I am really sorry said he, but we have a rule that says you cannot ride an Eastern jump seat unless you are in ALPA".
I thanked him and went back to the check-in desk. The young lady suggested that I might like to try another Eastern flight (L1011) just two gates away. Same deal, got on cockpit and was asked if I was an ALPA member. This time, to my dismay, the captain said " off"!
Now that was rude and uncalled for.
Six days later Eastern went down the tubes and I had absolutely no problem turning down their applications for a job.
Why are we so horrible to one another?
I have had experience of unions from BALPA to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and have seen some amazing displays of intransigence.
We all like to think that we have this great fellowship of the skies until the unions take over.
I will give you one great example of this.
I did an annual line-check on a crew from JFK - SJU. My next duty was to deadhead from SJU - MIA to pick up a DC-10 that had been on heavy maintenance.
We take a 90 minute delay from JFK due to a rather large Cb.
The result is that I miss the company schedule from SJU to MIA but, no matter, Eastern go to MIA at least once an hour.
I present myself at the Eastern check-in desk with my ID and ask if I can possibly deadhead to MIA on the jumpseat. "Go talk to the captain" says she so I present myself in the cockpit and ask if I might deadhead with them (it was an A300 by the way).
The captain asked me if I was a member of ALPA? "Sorry, said I, we have our own in-company union and my Teamsters membership has just run out". "I am really sorry said he, but we have a rule that says you cannot ride an Eastern jump seat unless you are in ALPA".
I thanked him and went back to the check-in desk. The young lady suggested that I might like to try another Eastern flight (L1011) just two gates away. Same deal, got on cockpit and was asked if I was an ALPA member. This time, to my dismay, the captain said "
off"!Now that was rude and uncalled for.
Six days later Eastern went down the tubes and I had absolutely no problem turning down their applications for a job.
Why are we so horrible to one another?