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Old 7th Aug 2009, 12:48
  #561 (permalink)  
 
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Bruce Wayne - As you state, from your experience on another thread, I certainly can, and do, conduct a conversation in an adult and dignified fashion. My support for Barden's statement stems from it being directed at Leo and his fellows who post in similar fashion. To a great extent it depends on how you view yourself in terms of which set you belong to. In my experience you have not descended to the puerile forms that Leo etc employ or the so-quick-and-easy-to-grab stereotypical views of trade unionists as propagated by the then middle class British film & TV industries in the 60s & 70s. I will respect the contrary view of anyone as long as, if trying to justify their stance and rubbish mine, they do not distort the truth. Thankfully you have not done so and where there has been disagreement between us it has been resolved in a far from combatitive manner. I much prefer that.

I started posting on this thread as I was reading gross distortions of the law as being described by TRSS and others and sought to clarify this in order that hose with an interest in it, ie those in the bargaining unit, could be alerted to those distortions. If you read my posts you will find that they are made in that spirit. I have never sought to be inflamfatory and do not believe I have been.

Barden's words may seem harsh to you but I think he has considered them well. They may be emotive but this issue has been made emotive by those he attacks.
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 13:00
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permanent contracts: Capt. 5500-6000 euros/month and senior F/O's about 3500-4000/month , virtually no benefits at all and you pay for everything.

BRK contracts: Capt. 5500/month and F/O's 3500 (paying taxes in Ireland mandatory), no benefits whatsoever.
dannyalliga, through arse you speak,,,, if you include pension, ryr captains will earn nearly 8000euros per month, BRK captains will earn in excess of 9000euros per month.
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 13:07
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Bia, have to agree with you on that one!

I know guys ( line captains) who are picking up 5 figures a month in € to the left of the decimal point!

Danny A and his whining union stooge mates haven't actually grasped the fundamental economic situation or, indeed, the plain fact ( excuse me for stating the bleedin' obvious) that it is a buyer's market right now and Ryanair are the only buyers!
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 13:35
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Slim

They aren't even that anymore, all TR courses suspended until next April/May, pilots who were selected and due to start in the autumn/winter told they would have to redo simcheck/interview come next year......
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 14:03
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The figures that I quoted were for a BRK F/O
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 14:20
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Ryanair Welcomes BALPA’s Confirmation
THAT ITS RECOGNITION CAMPAIGN AMONG RYANAIR’S UK PILOTS HAS FAILED – AGAIN

(SO IT’S BYE BYE BALPA)


Ryanair, the UK’s largest airline today (7th Aug) welcomed BALPA’s recent announcement that it has “temporarily suspended” its trade union recognition campaign amongst Ryanair’s UK pilots in the face of massive opposition from Ryanair’s pilots towards BALPA (the British Airways Lunching Pilots Association).

On June 19th BALPA wrote to Ryanair seeking to impose union recognition among Ryanair’s UK pilots. Ryanair told them to go away, because Ryanair’s pilots continue to negotiate directly with the airline as evidenced by a recent extension of Ryanair’s UK pilots four year pay and conditions agreement. This guaranteed Ryanair pilots a 5 on, 4 off roster (the best in the industry) as well as protecting Ryanair’s pilots pay and job security at a time when BALPA was negotiating pay cuts and job cuts at British Airways, Virgin, Thompson-Fly and others.

However BALPA wouldn’t take the hint and threatened to refer the matter to the CAC, who could (under UK legislation) require a secret ballot among Ryanair UK pilots to see whether they actually want trade union recognition. Following a groundswell of opposition to BALPA from Ryanair’s UK pilots, BALPA have now recognised that they don’t have the support of a majority of Ryanair’s pilots, that they won’t win any such ballot, which is why their campaign to impose union recognition has now been “temporarily suspended” in another humiliating defeat for the British Airways Lunching Pilots Association.

Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said:

“The only reason why BALPA is “temporarily suspending” this campaign is because they know that they will lose. BALPA don’t want to lose another secret ballot on recognition, because that will mean they can’t have another go at Ryanair for a minimum period of three years.

“Perhaps now would be a good time for BALPA – the British Airways Lunching Pilots Association – to accept that Ryanair’s UK pilots have better pay, better terms and conditions and better rosters than the pay cuts and job losses being negotiated by BALPA at many other British airlines. This is why Ryanair’s UK pilots don’t need and don’t want the “help” of a failed BA pilots union, which last year spent four times more on lunches, conferences, entertainment and travel (£886,000) than they did on legal fees defending their members (£191,000).

“This is another humiliating defeat for the British Airways Lunching Pilots Association, coming 8 years after they lost the last secret ballot on trade union recognition by a majority of over 4 to 1 against. At least this latest failure of BALPA’s recognition campaign will give them more time for lunches, and they can spend even less money defending their members interests in British Airways, Virgin, Thomson-Fly and all the other UK airlines where BALPA are negotiating pay cuts and job cuts. So it’s Bye Bye BALPA – yet again!!”
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 16:38
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Devil UK Base Thaw

Hey Leo
Thanks a million for the UK Base Thaw - that is what i call a quick response!
Seriously though - thanks, now we can all get on with flying and making a profit.
It was a bit too cold for a Devil
Mucky Devil
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 16:58
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Post SS Blapa sinks after collision with Ryanair Reef. Survivors unlikely.

Ask and you shall receive, Mucky Devil.

Once again, a little travel music for BLAPA to find their way back home to their masters.

Bye Bye BLAPA


Last edited by Leo Hairy-Camel; 9th Aug 2009 at 22:34.
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Old 7th Aug 2009, 22:31
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Leo - as always a pleasure to read your posts. Alas, for the rest of the lemmings at Ryanair I can only stand in open-mouthed amazement at their utter foolishness. Nonetheless, it appears that the voice of the people has been heard. The tragedy of this is that pilots at Ryanair would sooner be stuffed daily by Michael O'Leary than stand up for the basic employment rights that were fought for over many years by considerably braver people than themselves. At the end of the day they appear to have voted for an airline without collective representation - their wish will be granted and they will be picked off one by one.
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Old 8th Aug 2009, 09:21
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Post Oranges, Lemons and the Great Pumpkin BLAPA.

Well hello there, Norman, I'd begun to wonder when you'd be popping in.

Rather naughty of you to sit before the keyboard late at night whilst grumpy, though. As to matters at hand, you are correct, old friend. BLAPA have been seen off. Ryanair pilots have said an unequivocal NO.

You'd be well advised to accept the truth that a single person believing in the Great Pumpkin is a mental patient, yet ten thousand believing in it becomes a religion. Diluting the acceptance of stupidity and the suspension of disbelief that comes along with another 2500 devotees of your Great Pumpkin at BLAPA would have been another step in obscuring their uselessness and self-interest. Happily, Ryanair pilots are smarter than that and have told them to off.

That neither means we're lemmings, nor shall we be picked off one by one. If you've any decency, Norman, you should apologise for those remarks. Offensiveness isn't your natural style, although it has been creeping in, more and more of late. Haemhorriods, Norman?

If I were you, I'd be far more interested in happenings at Orangeland than showing your hand with banal comments on matters pertaining to Ryanair.

From a soon to be released analysts note:

easyJet
Management is targeting £125m of annualised cost savings by the September 2011 year end. The principal components of this are a £40m reduction in ownership costs to be achieved from selling or returning to lessors aircraft that were expensive to acquire and replacing them with A
320 family aircraft under the cheaper easyJet order. A further £30m is expected to come from crew efficiency measures, especially rostering and another £30m from improved fuel burn.
Hmmmm. £30 million savings in "crew efficiency measures", Norman? I wonder what that can mean. I can't wait to see what your Great Pumpkin BLAPA have to say about it, or is it that they're still busy quibbling over tepid tea and stale cheese sandwiches.

Of more concern to you should be the fact that my crack team of Brady spotters have found fresh Brady droppings in and around the grounds of a certain plump, fleshy-faced Greek gentleman's home, and I have further evidence of late-night discussions, far from the prying eyes of Orangeland. My spies tell me that WB is odds on to replace your Mr. Harrison as CEO when he leaves at the end of the year, and I for one just can't wait to hear what you've got to say after the rocket ship Brady touches down at Luton.

Rather than being beastly to us, Norman, may I suggest with tremendous affection, that you apply your attention to these and other imminent developments in your own backyard.

If I'm right, Norman, (and of course I am) 2010 is going to be a very interesting year indeed for the Orange People. Here's the reason why.

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Old 8th Aug 2009, 11:32
  #571 (permalink)  
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BRK pilots on 800 hours per year (Prior to new hires) earn €5000 per month averaged over 12 months.
Many BRK pilots have their own tax situation under control, new hires must conform to Brookfields T & C's.
So these are the numbers for old BRK contracts F/O's???
We all know the funny quote about opinions but maths are a different thing, much less funny: 80euros/hour X 800hours = 64000/year divided by 12months = 5333gross/month.
Take tax away from it (let's pretend we live in dreamland and only pay 20%) we are left with 4266, take some kind of pension away from it, loss of licence, health insurance,car park, uniform, medicals, hotels&transportation for sims etc etc and you'll come up with a number far away from the one you are falsely advertising.


dannyalliga, through arse you speak,,,, if you include pension, ryr captains will earn nearly 8000euros per month, BRK captains will earn in excess of 9000euros per month.
BRK captains don't get any pension my friend and RYR captains (in selected bases only) have a contributory scheme meaning part of that pension is funded with their monthly salaries so if they are making 6000 in a good month flying to the limits I don't see how that number can rise by 2k.
Going back to maths again: 125/hour (new BRK) X 850 = 106000 divided by 12 = 8854 gross/month.
Shall we take some tax and the 3% tax advisor's commission away?And what about some pension?And some health insurance and loss of licence?Not mentioning medicals, hotels&transportation for sims....again more misleading info posted here.



It would be better to keep this discussion at an adult level talking about numbers and facts than posting videos, insulting eachother, playing the smart "i know it all" guys or those who think the world is at the edge of collapse advertising the fact that one should be happy to just be alive and have a job or enjoy it when other operators are in difficulty.
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Old 8th Aug 2009, 12:23
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Danny

It is obvious that you do not understand the Self Employed Tax system as to what may be reclaimed, its complex and requires an accountant.

My figures are factual, and obtained from BRK F/O's who were employed Last Year, some before the Line training €40 / hour, others after.

In your argument you state after tax figures, and maybe you compare with other airlines who are PAYE.

For pension lets take an average of 5% employee contribution €250
Tax in first year after deductions estimated at €6000 or €500 / month

Overall the cost to the pilot of the other things you mentioned :-
"loss of licence, health insurance,car park, uniform, medicals, hotels & transportation for sims etc "
These are ALL tax deductable to a self employed pilot.
Allowing a fixed monthly deduction for these items many of which are not monthly of €300. the math adds up as follows, Monthly income.
Income €5000
outgoings €1050 (Before tax relief)
in the Bank €3950 converted to GBP 3375

A good salary for in any ones eyes, once related to other companies
Flybe £2090 before tax Monthly.
BMI Regional 2750 before tax Monthly
Figures from PPJN.

The new F/O BRK is reduced yes, but there are hundreds out there willing to work for it.
For Captains and F/O's RYR remember that they also get sector pay, per hour flown, and the current agreement I believe is tax paid, so no deduction.

The figures I have given you are based on €80 / hour less €4.5 deduction.
On 800 hours per year, with a further 100hrs which could be flown.
These hours are scheduled hours and as we all know the maximum is 900 Flight Hours.

Start getting your facts right, and compare like for like, as its difficult to equate Self Employed to PAYE, they are very different beasts.

As LHC said "Give him a bar of gold and he will complain that its too heavy"
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Old 8th Aug 2009, 13:25
  #573 (permalink)  
 
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The same WB who gave "false" information at the Ryanair court case!

"Judge Smyth quoted evidence of Mr Warwick Brady, Ryanair's Deputy Director of Flight Operations, that a Captain Gale "received warnings not to go back to Dublin to fly and be based there".

The judge found that this was one of two pieces of evidence from Mr Brady that "I consider to be false".


Sums things up I think.
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Old 8th Aug 2009, 14:09
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125/hour (new BRK) X 850 = 106000 divided by 12 = 8854 gross/month.
Well ok then fella, if you want to talk about new captains, which the vast majority of them are not, just to prove your point go ahead.
but that just serves to reinforce the point that you guys just don't get it. pilots are a commodity, just like fuel and coffee and tires, less people using them and a abundance availability and the price for them drops, in 04 05 when ryr had a major push on for captain and few available, brk wages increased, no one complained. except maybe the usually unionized full time guys who reckoned they should all be banished to the pits of hell. BRK fo's salary's increased as did full time ryr salaries(unless you include the dublin base guys whom at the time where reaping the benefits of being lead up the garden path by the aer lingus trade unionist.)

It would be better to keep this discussion at an adult level talking about numbers and facts than posting videos, insulting each other, playing the smart "i know it all" guys or those who think the world is at the edge of collapse advertising the fact that one should be happy to just be alive and have a job or enjoy it when other operators are in difficulty.
But that is just the point dear boy, the aviation industry HAS collapsed, and we are shouting from the roof top that we should be happy to have a job. If you don't think that
125/hour (new BRK) X 850 = 106000 divided by 12 = 8854 gross/month.
is enough, try living without it. I just spoke to a buddy of mine that worked for a now dead UK airline, whom was on a whooping salary for the better part of 10 years and was provided accommodation for that entire time, he's now a fo on a dc9 in libya....... sucks don't it working for ryr.
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Old 8th Aug 2009, 14:44
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Dannyalliga. Your posts are full of
As someone pointed out, you quite clearly do not understand how ltd company/self employment works. You seem to be so worried about these new f/os who earn 5 euros less than other f/os. However compare this to just two years ago where new f/os were stuck on 600 euros for months on end. Now were on 75.5 psbh. Big difference. The new guys are on 5 euros less or something, still nothing to complain about.

"Take tax away from it (let's pretend we live in dreamland and only pay 20%) we are left with 4266, take some kind of pension away from it, loss of licence, health insurance,car park, uniform, medicals, hotels&transportation for sims etc etc and you'll come up with a number far away from the one you are falsely advertising."

Mate you keep going on like uniform, medicals, hotels...etc are a monthly occurance. Maybe you just dont invest/save your money very well but i just about struggle on with paying £65 for a hotel room 2 a year for my RSTs.

Captains earn alot more than 5000 a month. I earn that as an SFO.
We can argue and through figures backwards and forwards all day to prove "whos right" but all I will say is if you feel that 40, 50, 60...etc K a year isnt alot of money then - get a good accountant like the majority of BRK guys do. And save your money, dont spend it on a new uniform each month!!

One final word - like many have said on here, dont like it - no one is telling you to put up with it. But ill tell you why you do, because no one else is hiring, you wont earn as much with anyone else and you know it. Otherwise you'd be out. Simple.
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Old 9th Aug 2009, 08:32
  #576 (permalink)  
 
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You're sad CommandB..
I've been with RYR for 5+ years. The FIRST job I was offered, payed more than RYR.
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Old 9th Aug 2009, 09:09
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Post One for Norman...

Meanwhile, at head office, sourcing of appropriate airframes to commence our overdue entry into Long Haul operations is causing consternation in certain quarters.

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Old 9th Aug 2009, 10:42
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The new F/O BRK is reduced yes, but there are hundreds out there willing to work for it.
The new BRK Capt. is also reduced, and those on the old and "better" BRK contract are already wondering what to do when time for renewal comes up in a couple of years....

On 800 hours per year, with a further 100hrs which could be flown.
These hours are scheduled hours and as we all know the maximum is 900 Flight Hours.
Theoretically yes, in reality we all know that F/O's have flown an average of 650/700 hours last year with tons of unpaid STBY days making those figures drastically lower.
By the way you forget to mention that while one could fly 900 and make more money another one could get ill and sit at home with ZERO (great feeling of security....).

By the way thanks for the theory about being self employed and all those academic figures, the reality is that 2 out of 3 of the agencies selected by BRK for tax advice are not even answering emails nor phone calls and the 3 one is giving out information which is different from the one you could get from the previous 2 (in the rare occasions when they answer an email or return a phone call).
But we'll very shortly have the details of those "great gains" you advertise, just stay tuned and someone will post them here.

Figures from PPJN.
Good at looking for figures of other airlines, let's look at those of RYR on the same website.....talks about top Capt. at 71600 before tax....

if you want to talk about new captains, which the vast majority of them are not, just to prove your point go ahead.
pilots are a commodity, just like fuel and coffee and tires,
It's obvious to me that most of the posters here are not pilots, a pilot would never consider himself a "commodity" nor compare his contribution to the company to that of a tire....and even less would be so short sighted and dumb not to understand that the old BRK contract will be over in a couple of years and the new one being offered will eventually hit everyone in FR very shortly.
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Old 9th Aug 2009, 11:15
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Danny

Why are you such a sad

The people with whom I speak regularly have since they joined early last year averaged 820 in the 12 months from start of line training.
Some have reached the 900 hours.
This month most are rostered 90+ hours and since the beginning of the year have averaged over 65 hours including leave.
Were are you getting your statistics from ?

Why are you so worried about contracts which may not come up for renewal for 2 or 3 years, the situation will have changed again by then.

I am a Pilot with over 36 years in the industry, and yes I am a commodity, just like any other employee.

I suggest that once you have gained experience in the industry, you will understand the economics, and that aviation is not what you expected it to be.

As for sickness, how often have you been sick in the last year, or for that matter since you were 16.
Yes sick pay would be an advantage but you can get a policy to cover you, again tax deductable to self employed pilots.

I am glad that I dont have to sit next to you on the flightdeck as your colleagues must be sick of listening to you bleat and fighting a losing corner.
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Old 9th Aug 2009, 11:22
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Hitlers 787 delayed

I don't think i have laughed so much over a thread on Pprune before.

Now I am going to have spend a sunday cleaning coffee out of my keyboard.
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