Dumb and Dumber: A Tale of Two Unions.
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Stan Woolley
I Salute you. I am also one of the many ex easyjet employees at Ryanair.
Norman Stanley Fletcher
You spoke to an ex FR FO in the sim and he said he preferred easy, well what a surprise. Was it just before you filled out his report/command assessment? When you have spoken to an ex FR Captain then you will get the real picture. In the Ryanair Ltn base at one point nearly 30% of the Captains were Ex Easy. You did employ some ex FR Captains but they all came back to an airline where the rosters are put together by profesionals not failed cabin crew and ex tele sales hangers on.
I Salute you. I am also one of the many ex easyjet employees at Ryanair.
Norman Stanley Fletcher
You spoke to an ex FR FO in the sim and he said he preferred easy, well what a surprise. Was it just before you filled out his report/command assessment? When you have spoken to an ex FR Captain then you will get the real picture. In the Ryanair Ltn base at one point nearly 30% of the Captains were Ex Easy. You did employ some ex FR Captains but they all came back to an airline where the rosters are put together by profesionals not failed cabin crew and ex tele sales hangers on.
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Stan W, you have the right stuff.
Rosters, pay...most important and then base.
Regardless of what the loudmouths think we are all cogent individuals capable of making p our own minds about unions and unionisation.
For my part...wouldn't go near BALPA or any other ALPA even as a last resort.
Legal insurance? You are better off with ALPL.
Nevertheless, my opinion is only a ripple in the pond.
Rosters, pay...most important and then base.
Regardless of what the loudmouths think we are all cogent individuals capable of making p our own minds about unions and unionisation.
For my part...wouldn't go near BALPA or any other ALPA even as a last resort.
Legal insurance? You are better off with ALPL.
Nevertheless, my opinion is only a ripple in the pond.
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Well everyone is entitled to their opinion so here's mine bearing in mind that I have worked for EZY and RYR. Easyjet is by a country mile a better place to work and IS a better operation. Ryanair promise people cash and a stable roster. Fair enough and some people go for that. The cash is getting less and less whereas at EZY it is increasing. The roster however is stable but the leave system takes the piss.
So what are the main differences between the two ?
Well at EZY you get to name a few : free car parking, a pension (whether you pay into it or not), hotac for sims, transport for sims, even a payment for sectors for being in the sim. Whereas at RYR you get sweet FA. I won't even bore you with the uniform allowance and the bonus after 2 years service and the rpi increases as it makes me feel even worse about what I did.
Then you can move onto new aircraft. Both have them - a score draw.
But the OPS couldnt be further apart.
If you are lucky enough to get through to OPS in RYR they are at best inadequate. EZY ops were always on the ball for me.
Now if RYR is a better place to work i'm all ears !
Ps. Note I didn't mention Leo and his merry henchmen who's behaviour is at best disgusting. But they hide away to deliver their threats as none of them have got the
to do it face to face.
So what are the main differences between the two ?
Well at EZY you get to name a few : free car parking, a pension (whether you pay into it or not), hotac for sims, transport for sims, even a payment for sectors for being in the sim. Whereas at RYR you get sweet FA. I won't even bore you with the uniform allowance and the bonus after 2 years service and the rpi increases as it makes me feel even worse about what I did.
Then you can move onto new aircraft. Both have them - a score draw.
But the OPS couldnt be further apart.
If you are lucky enough to get through to OPS in RYR they are at best inadequate. EZY ops were always on the ball for me.
Now if RYR is a better place to work i'm all ears !
Ps. Note I didn't mention Leo and his merry henchmen who's behaviour is at best disgusting. But they hide away to deliver their threats as none of them have got the
to do it face to face.
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"You did employ some ex FR Captains but they all came back to an airline where the rosters are put together by profesionals" .... (sic)
I would call JD and his department, many things, but "professional" (or even profesional !) is not one of them. The annual leave system in RYR is administered by the rostering dept using a "manual" spreadsheeet !!!!
>>The ID card issue is to be shelved. This has already been mooted at Cabinet level as a part of the swinging cost cutting the UK government is required to perform in response to their borrowing more in the past year, than all British cabinets in the past 300 years combined.<<
Very naive. The ID Cards plan is not a New Labour proposal but a long term Home Office project. Currently it is being re packaged to sit on a shelf for a couple of years before the mandarins start pushing it to the next Governments incoming Home Secretary. New Labour would never willingly cancel the ID Cards scheme as they would have to admit they were wrong on so many issues. They don't do 'u-turns' only re branding.
Expect ID Cards to be back in a new guise with a Tory Government. Probably in the form of compulsory passports with a national fingerprint database. I reckon this is where Eire will get caught up in the scheme. It will be difficult for the Irish State to exist for too long on the old 'picture only' passport. Remember that the push for international biometric registration came from the USA with the Patriot Act. I have yet to read anything about President Obama rescinding that particular deal.The EU is latching onto this with Project Stork:
Fears over pan-EU electronic identity network - Telegraph
The fight against ID Cards is set to continue well into the next Government and possibly beyond.
Very naive. The ID Cards plan is not a New Labour proposal but a long term Home Office project. Currently it is being re packaged to sit on a shelf for a couple of years before the mandarins start pushing it to the next Governments incoming Home Secretary. New Labour would never willingly cancel the ID Cards scheme as they would have to admit they were wrong on so many issues. They don't do 'u-turns' only re branding.
Expect ID Cards to be back in a new guise with a Tory Government. Probably in the form of compulsory passports with a national fingerprint database. I reckon this is where Eire will get caught up in the scheme. It will be difficult for the Irish State to exist for too long on the old 'picture only' passport. Remember that the push for international biometric registration came from the USA with the Patriot Act. I have yet to read anything about President Obama rescinding that particular deal.The EU is latching onto this with Project Stork:
Fears over pan-EU electronic identity network - Telegraph
The fight against ID Cards is set to continue well into the next Government and possibly beyond.
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f/spninx - Just to clarify, I spoke to the FO at the end of the session after the paperwork was written. As it happened he would not care what I had written as he has already resigned as he is returning to Australia to live! Also, I have spoken to FOs and Captains alike from Ryanair - the story is always the same. I have also spoken to a good friend who is still a captain at Ryanair and he would leave to come to easyJet tomorrow if he could. Freezing ATPL has, however, much more useful to say on the subject than I do. Perhaps it would be good to listen to him even if you find my views distasteful.
The first casualty of war is truth - nowhere is that more the case than in a discussion with Leo, magnificently entertaining as his posts undoubtedly are. As the more rational contributors like catplaystation have observed, the figures quoted are not quite as advertised by Leo, nor are the 'benefits' of working for Ryanair. As I have said before, there is only one thing that separates us as companies - union representation. The best and brightest hope for Ryanair is organised labour working to create a competitive company without selling its soul in doing so.
The first casualty of war is truth - nowhere is that more the case than in a discussion with Leo, magnificently entertaining as his posts undoubtedly are. As the more rational contributors like catplaystation have observed, the figures quoted are not quite as advertised by Leo, nor are the 'benefits' of working for Ryanair. As I have said before, there is only one thing that separates us as companies - union representation. The best and brightest hope for Ryanair is organised labour working to create a competitive company without selling its soul in doing so.
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Hello Norm,
Remember me? Look I was going to type some childish post and make fun of you-but you seem to be doing fine on your own. easyNow don't get upset.
Answer me this. You are suggesting that the only difference between EZY/FR is BALPA. So what happened has easy got "worse" or has Ryan got "better" You have always suggested that easy was better-even though you have no DIRECT experience of Ryan.
Secondly would you expand on one of your own questions "Why has easy got crew food and Ryan does not"
Let me save you the trouble the answer is..ME. Yes the fantastic benefit that you enjoy was as a direct results of me, Stan, f/sphinx and all the other pilots who "founded" easyJet-not bloody BALPA. In fact we only started to pay of it AFTER BALPA got in-cheers for that.
Another point is that while easy was trying to kill me with mind warping fatigue-Ryan had already negotiated the first 5 year deal 5/3 rosters without a union. Why because they love pilots-NO -because it improved productivity and benefited the company. Back to easy. Did BALPA help with the roster. NO In fact it was one of there pre-election hooks-and the first thing to be dropped. No, instead they put all the important stuff into the hands of an unelected PC who were all old, mostly Australian and/or concerned about shares-no probs with that, except it did not represent the views of 90% pilots. Great.
NSF do you see where this is going. Even if you fly for easy for the next 30 years it will always be more mine, Stans, f/shinx and all, than yours. We set up the good bits that you enjoy now and we survived the post BALPA working environment. To quote the now CP after BALPA got in "...
well you wanted it-now you will get it.." So if you feel us to be sensitive-your damn right we are-years later I still can't get over the dreadful lifestyle that nearly finished me and my family.
So NSF do me and all the other long severed pilots out there a favour-accept that you don't fully understand the history and that must mean that your efforts to draw comparison and example from the past are flawed. Accept that you don't understand Ryanair and that you should not even mention it.
You do have a talent for talk-but remember that although you have have found your Garden of Eden-but it is yours and yours only.
We HAD to vote in BALPA at easy. Roster-pay-leave. A CEO that refused any benefit to the pilots eg staff travel to allow Continental pilots to go home-on the logic that postmen don't get free letters! Jesus. We had NO option it was that bad.
Even the most ardent hater of Ryan would have to admit that were it counts eg Roster and lifestyle ryan has it sorted. They can hitch a lift when ever which means that temporary basing plus ultra stable roster, need not disrupt a family too much. As for everything else the market is driving-then as now.
Ryan allowed me to get "better"-to get a career going again and above all allowed me to spend time with my family in a fit state. Which is personal to me and I don't impose the view on anyone else. Now maybe you can enjoy that too-but that is only a recent innovation at easy.
So any improvements you have are as a result of the early professionals-who I see every now and again-they deserve and demand YOUR respect because they saw it through-they have mine-I had to run away to save me and my family.
So have it on me and all the others Norm-keep spouting your own brand of crap-I can say that because I have been there and done that and got the Tee Shirt.
Remember me? Look I was going to type some childish post and make fun of you-but you seem to be doing fine on your own. easyNow don't get upset.
Answer me this. You are suggesting that the only difference between EZY/FR is BALPA. So what happened has easy got "worse" or has Ryan got "better" You have always suggested that easy was better-even though you have no DIRECT experience of Ryan.
Secondly would you expand on one of your own questions "Why has easy got crew food and Ryan does not"
Let me save you the trouble the answer is..ME. Yes the fantastic benefit that you enjoy was as a direct results of me, Stan, f/sphinx and all the other pilots who "founded" easyJet-not bloody BALPA. In fact we only started to pay of it AFTER BALPA got in-cheers for that.
Another point is that while easy was trying to kill me with mind warping fatigue-Ryan had already negotiated the first 5 year deal 5/3 rosters without a union. Why because they love pilots-NO -because it improved productivity and benefited the company. Back to easy. Did BALPA help with the roster. NO In fact it was one of there pre-election hooks-and the first thing to be dropped. No, instead they put all the important stuff into the hands of an unelected PC who were all old, mostly Australian and/or concerned about shares-no probs with that, except it did not represent the views of 90% pilots. Great.
NSF do you see where this is going. Even if you fly for easy for the next 30 years it will always be more mine, Stans, f/shinx and all, than yours. We set up the good bits that you enjoy now and we survived the post BALPA working environment. To quote the now CP after BALPA got in "...
well you wanted it-now you will get it.." So if you feel us to be sensitive-your damn right we are-years later I still can't get over the dreadful lifestyle that nearly finished me and my family.
So NSF do me and all the other long severed pilots out there a favour-accept that you don't fully understand the history and that must mean that your efforts to draw comparison and example from the past are flawed. Accept that you don't understand Ryanair and that you should not even mention it.
You do have a talent for talk-but remember that although you have have found your Garden of Eden-but it is yours and yours only.
We HAD to vote in BALPA at easy. Roster-pay-leave. A CEO that refused any benefit to the pilots eg staff travel to allow Continental pilots to go home-on the logic that postmen don't get free letters! Jesus. We had NO option it was that bad.
Even the most ardent hater of Ryan would have to admit that were it counts eg Roster and lifestyle ryan has it sorted. They can hitch a lift when ever which means that temporary basing plus ultra stable roster, need not disrupt a family too much. As for everything else the market is driving-then as now.
Ryan allowed me to get "better"-to get a career going again and above all allowed me to spend time with my family in a fit state. Which is personal to me and I don't impose the view on anyone else. Now maybe you can enjoy that too-but that is only a recent innovation at easy.
So any improvements you have are as a result of the early professionals-who I see every now and again-they deserve and demand YOUR respect because they saw it through-they have mine-I had to run away to save me and my family.
So have it on me and all the others Norm-keep spouting your own brand of crap-I can say that because I have been there and done that and got the Tee Shirt.
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REPA lies exposed again.
It must be stated clearly that there is considerable evidence of non-compliance with tax requirements. However we accept that, even in circumstances where some pilots have made significant efforts to clarify their position, it has - in practice - proved to be impossible for those pilots to do so. This is one of the paradoxes that we discovered when we investigated the matter. In other words, this business is much more complex than a simple matter of wilful breaking of the law. There are further issues as well, which vary depending on the country involved.
One the one hand, they say it isn't them, and on the other they cite "considerable evidence of non-compliance". They go on to further muddy the waters by saying the very attempt to get yourself out of the mess they have created, without the golden hand of BLAPA/IALPA to assist you one presumes, is doomed to fail. What a class act of degenerate skulduggery.
If further evidence was needed as to their guilt and self-interested agenda, you need look no further than here.
Join BLAPA, and in addition to being spoken down to by superior, self-interested Atlantic Barons of British Airways on their turgid, unviewed website, you can look forward to having your tax affairs examined with a fine-toothed comb. Why ever have we waited this long?
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Hey Leo, nice bit of attempted selective quotation there. But even the bit you quote does not say what you say it says (I've read the REPA site today too). I think you don't like the fact that it mentioned you, you sensitive soul. Just to prove that I can cut and paste too, try this
You seem to have missed a lot of other comments like that one! But we all luv you.
In actual fact Ryanair have made considerable efforts to blame IALPA at various times for creating difficulties with the tax authorities in Dublin. Some of these were "pushed" from Dublin, others from EMA and, more recently, a certain Leo Hairy Camel has used PPRuNe to make the accusation again (along with a number of other claims that suggest Ryanair feel a need to get into the pilot propagada business at this particular time).
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Nice Touch (Nasty Touch, Foolish Touch, No Touch....whatever). Can't say I do remember you, but I am sure we will have had discussions previously on this issue. It is always sad to hear yesterday's man living in yesterday's world. It's a bit like these Japanese soldiers who used to appear out of the jungle for about 30 years after the end of the war looking for Americans to fight - only to discover it was all over and both nations had changed beyond recognition while they had lived in a fantasy world all those years in isolation. Tragic.
A few helpful points to maybe lighten the load of your delusion - you did not start easyJet - Stelios did. You were just a simple employee who did not like it and left. The easyJet you left has long gone and I genuinely wish you well at Ryanair. You and your fellow travellers are simply locked in a time warp regarding easyJet, and given your inability to escape from a perception of the past that is simply irrelevant to today's discussion, you are probably in exactly the right place. There seems to be no way out for you regarding the easyJet you 'founded'.
"Even if you fly for easy for the next 30 years it will always be more mine, Stans, f/shinx and all, than yours." Nutty talk my friend. I suppose that just because you are paranoid you cannot be sure they are not out to get you. You do not 'own' easyJet, nor have you ever done so. You are just a disenchanted employee who got the hump and left. We all wish you well, but do not harbour illusions of gradeur - they are manifestly misplaced.
"So if you feel us to be sensitive-your damn right we are-years later I still can't get over the dreadful lifestyle that nearly finished me and my family." Great for the grandchildren but it is NOT THE CASE TODAY. That lifestyle has gone, and you and your sad mates who are upset at what happened to them at easyJet just need to move on. Sit in your cockpits and spout forth to anyone who will listen about how bad it was, but see it like the trenches - it's over now. And by the way, if the guy next to you is not saying much in reply, it is probably because he would like to talk about something else!I
Life is full of disappointments - you have had one at easyJet but do need to move on. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the flight with Ryanair. For everyone else, just join BALPA.
A few helpful points to maybe lighten the load of your delusion - you did not start easyJet - Stelios did. You were just a simple employee who did not like it and left. The easyJet you left has long gone and I genuinely wish you well at Ryanair. You and your fellow travellers are simply locked in a time warp regarding easyJet, and given your inability to escape from a perception of the past that is simply irrelevant to today's discussion, you are probably in exactly the right place. There seems to be no way out for you regarding the easyJet you 'founded'.
"Even if you fly for easy for the next 30 years it will always be more mine, Stans, f/shinx and all, than yours." Nutty talk my friend. I suppose that just because you are paranoid you cannot be sure they are not out to get you. You do not 'own' easyJet, nor have you ever done so. You are just a disenchanted employee who got the hump and left. We all wish you well, but do not harbour illusions of gradeur - they are manifestly misplaced.
"So if you feel us to be sensitive-your damn right we are-years later I still can't get over the dreadful lifestyle that nearly finished me and my family." Great for the grandchildren but it is NOT THE CASE TODAY. That lifestyle has gone, and you and your sad mates who are upset at what happened to them at easyJet just need to move on. Sit in your cockpits and spout forth to anyone who will listen about how bad it was, but see it like the trenches - it's over now. And by the way, if the guy next to you is not saying much in reply, it is probably because he would like to talk about something else!I
Life is full of disappointments - you have had one at easyJet but do need to move on. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the flight with Ryanair. For everyone else, just join BALPA.
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Leo, I don't think anyone cares what you say!
Lets not make this an EZY/FR thread, the more important issue here is the upcoming fight of unionisation within RYR, not which airline is best to work for or who flies the bigger airplane...
www.balpa.org/RyanairSupport.aspx
Lets not make this an EZY/FR thread, the more important issue here is the upcoming fight of unionisation within RYR, not which airline is best to work for or who flies the bigger airplane...
www.balpa.org/RyanairSupport.aspx
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not which airline is best to work for or who flies the bigger airplane
easyJet announces intention to conduct mid-air marriages | Travel | guardian.co.uk
To have and to hold.........
To love and to..........excuse me a second........Left ten degrees and descend when ready Flight Level Two Hundred level by Mayfield Easy 3256...........cherish
Haha - unbelievable.
Last edited by Stan Woolley; 7th May 2009 at 19:12.
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Norman does metaphor mean nothing to you?
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHO IS BEST.
I don't need a history lesson about easy 'cos I was there! Unfortunately
ey you can not ignore the past-since it is these agreements which are at risk. Agreements that you have only recently become part of.
Is this about union recognition, or not? To remind. You think we are both the same, EZY/FR, so expand on that. Use your personal experience of Ryanair and easyJet to qualify your argument.
My issue is personally with you. Your naivety and influence you have over younger pilots. As you read the next bit-this is NOT ABOUT EASY-RYAN AND PI$$ED OLD PILOTS. This is about unions and the Hobson's choice we have as pilots
Why is it OK for you to call for union recognition in a company that you have never worked in.
A Lot of young people at the beginning of their careers with considerable debt would stand to loose a great deal if they listen to the likes of you.
Do you think that the current economic conditions are a good time to start a battle with the managers.
So here's an idea preach BALPA-use past examples of victories achieved in easyJet-you will have to ask someone who has been there a while to help. Then because you are NSF and are so clever offer the helpless victims some way of continuing their careers when agreements are ripped up, bases frozen and promotions stopped etc-what then.
In one thing I agree if you don't like it-move I did. My issue is not with easy-its with you and your call for recognition based on what ...crew food, softer toilet paper or a free pen with every LPC...what are you asking for that an airline can/is willing to give under the current climate. Your probably sorted with your RAF/GB(BA) pension, so no risk to you.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHO IS BEST.
I don't need a history lesson about easy 'cos I was there! Unfortunately
ey you can not ignore the past-since it is these agreements which are at risk. Agreements that you have only recently become part of.
Is this about union recognition, or not? To remind. You think we are both the same, EZY/FR, so expand on that. Use your personal experience of Ryanair and easyJet to qualify your argument.
My issue is personally with you. Your naivety and influence you have over younger pilots. As you read the next bit-this is NOT ABOUT EASY-RYAN AND PI$$ED OLD PILOTS. This is about unions and the Hobson's choice we have as pilots
Why is it OK for you to call for union recognition in a company that you have never worked in.
A Lot of young people at the beginning of their careers with considerable debt would stand to loose a great deal if they listen to the likes of you.
Do you think that the current economic conditions are a good time to start a battle with the managers.
So here's an idea preach BALPA-use past examples of victories achieved in easyJet-you will have to ask someone who has been there a while to help. Then because you are NSF and are so clever offer the helpless victims some way of continuing their careers when agreements are ripped up, bases frozen and promotions stopped etc-what then.
In one thing I agree if you don't like it-move I did. My issue is not with easy-its with you and your call for recognition based on what ...crew food, softer toilet paper or a free pen with every LPC...what are you asking for that an airline can/is willing to give under the current climate. Your probably sorted with your RAF/GB(BA) pension, so no risk to you.
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f/sphinx - 5 years.
Nice Touch - no GB pension, £3076 per annum from the RAF. Just stopped contributing to easyJet pension scheme in order to attack my mortgage. Just before I stopped paying-in my predicted pension was £11k per annum. Trust me, I have a vested interest in the future and right now it is does not look too rosy. That's why I want a union.
Stan - Mid-air marriages - an act of utter buffoonery. Yet more reason to have a union representing my interests to management.
Leo - your magnificent posts are so good. Just keep them coming. To a man of such clear education as yourself, I cannot help but quoting the words of Joseph Stalin - “Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns, why should we allow them to have ideas?” Is that how you want your professional lives to continue? I trust not.
And finally, to all those out there who think that when you want union recognition at Ryanair, do not be fooled. The Blessed Michael and his acolytes will go to extraordinary lengths to prevent that happening. Let me leave you with another quote from the mighty Stalin himself - “It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.”
Good night to one and all.
Nice Touch - no GB pension, £3076 per annum from the RAF. Just stopped contributing to easyJet pension scheme in order to attack my mortgage. Just before I stopped paying-in my predicted pension was £11k per annum. Trust me, I have a vested interest in the future and right now it is does not look too rosy. That's why I want a union.
Stan - Mid-air marriages - an act of utter buffoonery. Yet more reason to have a union representing my interests to management.
Leo - your magnificent posts are so good. Just keep them coming. To a man of such clear education as yourself, I cannot help but quoting the words of Joseph Stalin - “Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns, why should we allow them to have ideas?” Is that how you want your professional lives to continue? I trust not.
And finally, to all those out there who think that when you want union recognition at Ryanair, do not be fooled. The Blessed Michael and his acolytes will go to extraordinary lengths to prevent that happening. Let me leave you with another quote from the mighty Stalin himself - “It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.”
Good night to one and all.
Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 7th May 2009 at 23:18.
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Quote from Nice Touch
Good, I hope you enjoy your annual leave this year - 65 % of which will be allocated by the company, as one month off in the winter months, outside of school holidays .........
PS On the topic of quotes from "leaders", who said this one ?
"To destroy you is no loss - to keep you is no gain"
Was it :-
a) Pol Pot , the leader of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the 1970's
or
b) A well known CEO of a large low cost airline
Ryan allowed me to get "better"-to get a career going again and above all allowed me to spend time with my family in a fit state.
Good, I hope you enjoy your annual leave this year - 65 % of which will be allocated by the company, as one month off in the winter months, outside of school holidays .........
PS On the topic of quotes from "leaders", who said this one ?
"To destroy you is no loss - to keep you is no gain"
Was it :-
a) Pol Pot , the leader of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the 1970's
or
b) A well known CEO of a large low cost airline
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Nice Touch and Out of Touch
Nice Touch it strikes me that you are blind to the reality of your own circumstances, not to mention that of your colleagues. Have you ever considered renaming yourself Out of Touch?