Dumb and Dumber: A Tale of Two Unions.

[missterrible]

ON the contrary, Whistle Blower, the truth is you choose to ignore the point. Under your leadership, whoops, sorry about that, under the leadership of Evan-the poisoned pygmy-Cullen, the IALPA membership of Aer Lingus has been intimidated into investing in the doomed Tailwind scandal, and because these moneys were used to make leveraged investments of Aer Lingus stock, a stock which has plummeted in value, they are not only looking at losses of their initial investments, but many, many, MANY multiples of it, since the ‘strategy’ has proved to be naught but a squalid, ignominious failure. My conservative estimates put that at over €500,000 for every man and woman flying for Aer Lingus who was dumb enough to invest in Tailwind in the first place. You must be so proud

If you were correct and say only 200 signed up, that would be a €100,000,000 loss. I don't think so.

The man is a genius in my opinion a hard arsed bastered, but a genius all the same.

Not a mathematical genius though.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Originally Posted by Daft Camel Bloke

It's a great many more than just 200, dear.
Quote:
Not a mathematical genius though.
Stones and glass houses. Shouldn't you be cooking dinner for your husband?

Nice bit of misogyny there. What a lovely fellow you are.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Join BLAPA and learn the real meaning of deception.

[Wig Wag]

I have one very good reason for supporting BALPA these days - namely that they are putting up a stout fight against UK ID Cards. We should be grateful for that on both sides of the Irish Sea. If the UK Government gets it's way with ID Cards and the National Identity Register you can bet your bottom dollar that the Irish Government will follow suit. I doubt if there are many Irish or British (including Leo Hairy-Camel) who truly want to be made to walk around with a government bar code in their wallets. It would be a huge infringment of our civil liberties.

Give BALPA their due - they are fighting where other organisations are actually being quite cowed.

[atse]

Wig Wag you should not say things like that.

It might frighten the camel.

Then he would not be free to do MOL's bidding.

Shameless mercenary, dupe, propagandist and ideological fellow-traveller that he is.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

aFSKAP

X 2

If you have nothing to hide what harms another piece of plastic going to do in your wallet

[Wig Wag]

Have a look at:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...-id-cards.html

If you want to have an ID Card and have your life tracked on a UK Government database that's fine by me. I refuse to have an ID Card and don't see why I should:

a. be refused an airside pass.

and

b. be refused a passport.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

its a little naive to assume a lot of this info isn't stored anyway, fingerprints get scanned everytime I go to the USA. Iris recognition gives me the chance to bypass the queue at arrivals. So unless I'm planning to knock off a mail train anytime soon it just doesn't matter to me that this info is stored.

Can you conspiracy theorists tell me how and why the slippery slope is so slippery what can we expect? (cue Dr.Pepper music) whats the worst that could happen?

Off topic - btw sorry

[M.Mouse]

I have to say that I have no particular liking for Leo but I do admire his ability to make money and admire how he almost on his own has built Ryanair in to a money making machine.

The Mafia make money. I don't admire them.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

To quote the great American showman P T Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute" - and there are several on this thread right now! The blind loyalty of unablereqnavperf to Michael O'Leary is touchingly reminiscent of Joseph Goebbel's loyalty to Adolf Hitler. Right to the bitter end, there was dear Joseph demanding loyalty from all his fellow travellers - utterly blinded to the hideous truth of his master. You can hear it now, "The Furher may have killed 20 million Russians but he must have had his reasons - he would only have done it because he thought it necessary. Who are we to question?" Such has been the devotion of the weak to the apparently strong around them down the centuries.

Regarding the more immediate problem of BALPA and the assertion that they never achieved anything in any airline, let me give you a few examples. At easyJet we have had a number of our pilots disciplined down the years - at the last count BALPA has won every single appeal on each individual's behalf. In reality that means someone's career was under threat and as a minimum a substantial financial package was arranged on their behalf or in many cases they were reinstated. When easyJet decided to only employ Training Captain's on temporary contracts without consultation (thereby making the 1%/year everyone whines about look small beef compared to the 12.5% loss of salary), it was BALPA that fought it and won. Throughout last Winter when there was little training, everyone got paid for holding the rank as opposed to what they were doing day to day. Why do we have crew food still (and only today have won yet another crew food battle with our employers) and Ryanair do not? Why do easyJet pilot contract details appear on the internet for all to see when Ryanair's are 'private matters' between employee and employer? Why did we get our previously-agreed 5.5% pay deal given out last October when everyone else got pay freezes? Why are we not having contract captains from Virgin Atlantic this summer when the company had already made the arrangements behind our back? Why are there being massive changes now to rosters to train our First Officers very hurriedly to be our Captains flying our aircraft over the summer? Why did easyJet pilots not receive notification of compulsory unpaid leave whereas Ryanair pilots did? There is only one reason - BALPA fought tooth and nail - using a combination of logic, reasoning and threats. This they acted in the best interests of the pilot community, when faced with totally unscrupulous individuals who would leave us in the street with nothing. BALPA has not won every battle every time, but they have won most battles on most occasions. Having BALPA represent the pilots is the only thing that separates our two companies. The benefits are there for all to see.

Do not be misled by the "Michael knows best" brigade. To him you are just a bunch of "aerosexuals" (his term and not mine!), who are there for the taking. I trust you will use your best judgement by backing the future and not the past.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

ID cards, Oranges, and the foul stench of BLAPA.

Having BALPA represent the pilots is the only thing that separates our two companies.

There's a great deal more than that, I think you'll find.

Norman, a pleasure as always to hear from you. You're looking well, and please pass my best regards to Mrs. F. One of the reason's I've always admired you, apart from your evident talent with the written word, is the impression I've formed that you actually believe what you write, and maintain your position with consistency. I'll save you the quotation attributed to Voltaire, but you'll take my meaning, I'm sure.

Clearly, you're a man of faith and like all believers you'll go to your grave holding onto a notional allegiance in the central goodness and benevolence of BLAPA. If it pleases you to cling to the minimum of good, despite an Everest in the maximum of bad, documented to the heavens, then I can only wonder at the suspension of disbelief required on your part, and in those of similar mind or those persuaded by your rather thinly constructed argument.

Permit me to touch for a moment on the subject of ID cards, currently in favour by the government of the United Kingdom. As colleagues have noted earlier on this thread, BLAPA have pinned their colours to the mast of this cause with uncharacteristically buttock-clenching fervour. The reason why they have done this is because the choice is formed, as was ever thus, in the highest profile case possible, certain to provide them with a win. The ID card issue is to be shelved. This has already been mooted at Cabinet level as a part of the swinging cost cutting the UK government is required to perform in response to their borrowing more in the past year, than all British cabinets in the past 300 years combined. Out go ID cards, BLAPA take the credit, and hey presto, they're famous for another ill-gotten fifteen minutes. Putrid!

The recession makes for odd bedfellows, but seeking to aggrandise themselves over a cause they know full-well is to be shelved, is opportunism of the most scurrilous sort, and precisely the sort of craven, self-interested behaviour that has identified BLAPA for decades. That they don't give a tuppenny phuck for anyone outside British Airways is demonstrable currently, and provable historically. That you continue, Norman, to hold up the turd that is BLAPA and twist it in the sunlight until it sparkles, does not for a moment, change its nature as a turd.

I will say to you, Norman, that I find it offensive in the extreme that you choose to characterise Ryanair and it's Chief Executive as being emblematic of the Third Reich and its leadership. That the view of Ryanair in the collective psyche of those outside the airline is at complete variance with the view of the majority from within, is a matter of record. I would ask as a friend, Norman, that you stop degrading yourself by making such mawkish extravaganzas in the future. Lets stick to debating the facts as they are on the ground, shall we?

Now then, as to your rather unfortunate continued comparison between Easyjet and Ryanair. This very day, Easyjet has announced doubling of losses, the departure of your Chairman, Sir Colin Swindler, and the highly capable Mr. Carr of your money department. All this at a time when your Mr. Harrison is putting out fires intentionally started by Sir Stellios all over the place because he doesn't want his airline to fail. Oh dear.

It doesn't bode well for your future. Once again, you should consider coming across to work for us, Norman. I'll even interview you myself, over a few pints, of course. As for your recent question...

And by the way Leo, given that "two of your former Orange men are now Senior TRE's at our facility at East Nowhere", I would love to hear their view on leaving now. It is inconceivable to me that anyone who left easyJet in the past, when it was significantly worse than it is now, could hand-on-heart say they are glad they work for Ryanair.

You did read, I presume, the reply from your (now our) Stan Woolley, didn't you?

What amazes me is how superior easyjet consider themselves.
Are you listening NORM? I prefer Ryanair. Absolutely no contest.

In the most reasonable of terms, Norman, I think you and your fellow denizens of beloved Orangeland, massaged as they are by the tender, two-faced caress of BLAPA, are soon to be circling the drain. I even hear on the jungle drums that a certain Mr. W. Brady is soon to join your management team, and that, my dear Norman, will put a cat among the pigeons, I can assure you.



Meanwhile, at a properly run LCC beyond the Bailey Light, we’ll be training 233 brand new baby cadets between now and year’s end, 66 Direct Entry Captain’s, along with our immensely successful command upgrade programme. Might I be bold and suggest it’s an ideal time for you to get with the strength, Norman? As an LTC yourself, you’ll be raking in about £13,200 per month at the current exchange rate, for 11 months of the year. If you find that distasteful, Norman my dear, then perhaps run it past Mrs. Fletcher to see her point of view.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Wonderful stuff Leo - alas not quite right but why let the truth stand in the way of a good story. The winter losses at easyJet, in common with nearly every other airline, will be with us for ever and a day - that is the nature of European airline operation. As you yourself know, there is only one figure that counts - the overall year following the summer season. The current prediction is that we will make a profit - something few airlines in Europe will achieve this year.

Regarding Stan Woolley, I realise that he is a man of unusual sensitivity on these issues and is prone to periods of deep personal distress when discussions of this kind appear. And yet his case is one of note and relevant to the current debate. He no doubt prefers the Ryanair of today compared with the easyJet of yesterday - so would I for what it is worth. The problem is that he is trapped comparing apples with oranges and cannot be easily rescued from his self-imposed time warp. The easyJet he left was prior to the big pro-BALPA surge. We are now in a very different position. All very sad as the situation at easyJet was in Stan's day, that is more for the memoirs rather than having any bearing on the reality of today. Stan would understandably be unhappy to admit it was a bad move going to Ryanair and quite understandably will reflect on the easyJet he left as justification for being where he is. The problem is that the easyJet he left is not the one I am in now. If he his happy where he is then I am delighted for him. His view of blue and yellow Utopia is, alas, not shared by his colleagues. They have a chance to change that by joining BALPA and I trust they will do so.

The arrival of Warwick Brady, as you rightly observe, is not a bright moment for any pilot at easyJet. Given that even the Irish courts branded him an unrelialbe individual, and that subsequent to his departure from Ryanair he has been a conspicuous failure at Air Deccan and some Indonesian outfit whose name I cannot recall, his arrival is hardly a matter for rejoicing. He may even be here for the sole purpose of taking on the pilots. The difference is that, should the need arise, we can and will take him on. I am all for discussing efficiencies - I am not for being unable to get so much as a cup of tea on a 10-hour day.

As others have pointed out, the glory days at Ryanair are now over. The buy-to-sell rotation policy of aircraft around the industry is now defunct as no one is buying (we are in the same situation by the way). For what it is worth, Ryanair have done so much right. They bought the right aircraft at the right price with the right fittings. They went to the right airports and got the right deals. The problem now is that flying from one airport in the middle of nowhere to another airport in the middle of nowhere, calling both airports somewhere else and then saying how great it is you run on time is basically a specialist activity that can only expand so far. Sooner or later you have to use the Gatwicks and Barcelonas instead of the regional satellites if you want to continue expanding - after all not everyone really wants to travel to London Birmingham or whatever the latest illusion is. I personally think we should admire many aspects of Ryanair's operation (that view is shared by our management incidentally who use the Ryanair benchmark of employee relations as something to drool over).

And herein lies the advantage of BALPA. We have crew efficiency issues - our managers put it down to paying people too much money. BALPA however can highlight the astonishing inefficiencies that beset us of countless people night-stopping every night, and yet are wisely not offering up our salaries to hide managerial ineptitude. Ryanair have really got this cracked and I salute them for it. Interestingly enough, as Stan will know, we have many ex-Ryanair pilots now at easyJet (5 years ago it was one way traffic to Ryanair - now it is one-way traffic inbound to us). I was teaching in the sim the other night with another ex-Ryanair FO and had a long discussion with him about the relative merits of the two companies. He pointed out many positive aspects of the Ryanair operation, none of which I could disagree with. He also said that the life of an easyJet pilot is significantly better - that is a view I have heard again and again in the last 3 years. Where we have to sharpen up is at a managerial level and ensure we eliminate the inefficiencies of hotac that Ryanair sorted years ago. I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem with flying 900 hours a year - it is just that the people who run the system are not currently able to get those 900 hours a year out of us. Given that scenario, BALPA quite rightly are resistant to change when there is so much else to be sorted. What BALPA provides is a check and balance - their presence stops the blame for incompetence being laid at the door or 'unreasonable' pilots who will not acquiesce to ludicrous plans that hide the real inefficencies.

I personally believe that both Ryanair and easyJet have a bright future. Nonetheless, I stand resolutely to the view that responsible union representation where pilots and management work together rather than by dictat is the way forward. We all know that both our companies are facing massive challenges, but they way forward for Ryanair pilots is to ensure their company learns to value their employees rather than treat them like the workhouse population of old.

[Stan Woolley]

Norman

You're right - I am overly sensitive on this issue.....2 reasons.

1/ I detested easyJet by the time I left, mainly down to the effect it had on my own and many of my colleagues health.

2/ Your continued refusal to accept my opinion as valid.Stan would understandably be unhappy to admit it was a bad move going to Ryanair

I find that insulting because I believe my judgement is in fact quite sound.As a TRE I hope so anyway! I'm sure you know that I have worked for a number of companies including Airtours, Royal Brunei and a few others. The only company I preferred to Ryanair was Britannia - where I flew for five years.The reason for me? Simple. Rostering. Pay me well and give me a decent roster and you are 90% there. There are other factors which are important too. SOP's and standards have to be to a certain level and I have left companies where they were not acceptable to me. They are perfectly acceptable to me at Ryanair. The aircraft are immaculate! Easily the best maintained aircraft I have come across.

There are some aspects that are less appealing of course but I balance the deal and so far have quickly decided to smile and get on with it.

You truly have the gift of the gab - I'd be amazed if you're not a wheel in either easyJet management or Balpa within a short while. Spinning and achieving toss all are their specialities.

Interesting that so many on Pprune see you as 'The Oracle'.

Even more interesting that you're starting to believe its true!

[curser]

Well FR must be better, right, or you have made a colossal mistake with your life. You are in training so tell us are you seeing any movement of Easy personnel coming over to FR, and if not you are compelled to ask yourself the question, why is that? Having read this thread I see no spin and toss in Normans' posts at least.

[Stan Woolley]

OK fellas you are right. I made a colossal mistake - trying to be straight with people who have made up their minds already.

My only fault is caring what you think.

[curser]

Stan, only you know the answer to the question. Are you seeing Easy personnel joining RyanAir? This is not a personal attack, but you are compelled to look at the facts as they present and from that generate your model. I would only point out that you may well be rationalizing your way through the truth in order to avoid and unpleasant reality. On the flip side maybe RyanAir is a great place to work in which case thanks for letting the rest of us in on the best kept trade secret.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Just in case there is any doubt about the state of easyJet finances, this is the latest statement about easyJet's half-year performance. I think that even the most critical of contributors would agree this is overall good news. Read this and you will then be in an informed position to evaluate Leo's assertions about easyJet's future. IMHO it looks quite good - there are whole lot of airlines out there who would just love to be in this position:


RNS Number : 7286R easyJet PLC 06 May 2009
easyJet plc
Interim results for the six months to 31 March 2009

GOOD 1ST HALF REVENUE PERFORMANCE; FULL YEAR GUIDANCE MAINTAINED

Results at a glance
H1 2009 H1 2008 change
Total revenue (£ million) 1,032.8 892.2 15.8%
Loss before tax - underlying (£ million) 1 (129.8) (48.4) (168.2)%
Loss before tax - reported (£ million) (116.5) (57.5) (102.6)%
Pre tax margin - underlying (%) 1 (12.6) (5.4) (7.2)pp
Return on equity - reported (%) (7.4) (3.7) (3.7)pp
Basic EPS - reported (pence) (20.4) (10.3) (98.1)%

TOTAL REVENUE PER SEAT UP 14.9% (7.6% AT CONSTANT CURRENCY) DRIVEN BY STRENGTH OF EASYJET NETWORK, IMPROVED ANCILLARY REVENUE PERFORMANCE AND A 4.8% SECTOR LENGTH INCREASE ASSOCIATED WITH THE ACQUISITION OF GB AIRWAYS
INCREASE IN PRE-TAX LOSS DRIVEN BY UNIT FUEL COST INCREASE EQUIVALENT TO £90.6 MILLION (£3.87 PER SEAT), MOVEMENT OF EASTER INTO THE SECOND HALF AND £13.7 MILLION REDUCTION IN INTEREST RECEIVABLE
TOTAL UNDERLYING COST PER SEAT1 (EXCLUDING FUEL AND CURRENCY MOVEMENT) UP 6.5% PARTLY DRIVEN BY INCREASED SECTOR LENGTH AND PLANNED LOWER AIRCRAFT UTILISATION DURING THE WINTER
STRONG POSITIVE CASH FLOW GENERATION WITH CASH AND MONEY MARKET DEPOSITS INCREASING IN THE SIX MONTHS BY £268.6 MILLION TO £1,131.1 MILLION (EXCLUDING RESTRICTED CASH OF £103.6 MILLION)
PASSENGER NUMBERS UP 2.9% TO 19.4 MILLION AND LOAD FACTOR IMPROVED 1.7PP TO 82.9%
FOR THE FIRST TIME, OVER HALF OF EASYJET'S PASSENGERS ORIGINATED OUTSIDE THE UK WITH A 21.8% GROWTH IN EASYJET'S PASSENGER NUMBERS ON EUROPEAN-BASED ROUTES
EASYJET'S POSITION HAS STRENGTHENED IN KEY GROWTH MARKETS OF LONDON GATWICK, PARIS, MILAN AND MADRID
FORWARD BOOKINGS, MEASURED BY AVAILABLE SEATS BOOKED, AND TOTAL REVENUE PER SEAT BEFORE THE IMPACT OF EXCHANGE RATES IN LINE WITH LAST YEAR WITH OVER 40% OF THE SUMMER NOW BOOKED
Note 1: Underlying financial performance excludes £9.1 million of costs associated with the integration of GB Airways in 2008 and a £13.3 million profit on the sale of two aircraft in 2009.
Commenting on the results, Andy Harrison, easyJet Chief Executive said:
"The 7.6% growth in our constant currency revenue per seat is a strong result in the current economic climate and underlines the strength of our network and our competitive position. Overall capacity in the European short-haul market shrank by 5.6%, however, easyJet gained market share in the period, with passenger numbers growing by 2.9% to 19.4 million.
"The reduction in our H1 profit margin was driven by an increase of £3.87 per seat in our unit fuel costs (equivalent to £90.6 million), which will unwind as our fuel hedging policies adjust to lower market prices. The movement of Easter into the second half of the year also depressed our first half margins.
"While we remain cautious about the consumer economy, at current fuel prices and exchange rates, easyJet expects to be profitable for the full year.
easyJet is financially strong, with cash and money market deposits as at 31 March 2009 exceeding £1 billion, and has good and well-established market positions and the Board remains confident in easyJet's future prospects."

[Aldente]

along with our immensely successful command upgrade programme.

That would be the one where Ryanair charges potential candidates £4000 for the "privilege" to upgrade then is it Leo ? .....

Oh, and they're bonded afterwards too !

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

there are whole lot of airlines out there who would just love to be in this position:

Possibly. Few, though, who would relish being in this one.

[captplaystation]

Sounds "immensely successful", but for who ?

I like the sound of Leo's 13,200 a month, but let's be clear here, that "may" be achievable in an ideal world, but is most definitely related to "contract" status ,and is of course pretax /no social contributions etc etc etc .
Leo, take off those rose tinted specs dear chap, they clash with your hair. It's not so bad at the coal face, but it ain't "that" good for most, if not all , of my acquaintance.
Lets see, 900hr x 140e an hour? (LTC but then again the "new enhanced "deal reduced the period you enjoy that premium ) divided by 11 = . . . . . well, seems a bit less than you say, or is IRE/TRE more? don't know, didn't reach those dizzy heights Leo howdya come up with 13,200 of Her Majesties greenies for 11mths BTW ?