airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !

[Kelly Hopper]

Clanger.
Well we agree wholeheartedly on that but I find it difficult to see the future as upbeat. This industry got on a slippery slope a decade ago and it shows no signs of letting up.
Incidently I recall an old employer who tried to bond me for a rating I already had! Took a while to get them to see sense but I still paid for it in the end!

Flinty.
So with the likes of RYR about you can see yourself spending 50-60k on a licence, 20k on a type, line training pennies, etc. only to find yourself on a hugely reduced income after a year because of the way YOU did it? With lost income etc. that is about 100k spent to earn a minimalistic wage at the end working for a bast@rd company. Why Why Why are flying schools still in business?

[pilotmike]

Boeing7117:

What about Flybe?

TR paid for on the Q400....
No reduced starting salary either.....

Flybe use £570 yearly increments on the payscale, and year 4 salary is £31405. Doesn't the year 1 salary of £25060 instead of the expected £29689 and the similar reduced salary in years 2 and 3 look suspiciously like a salary reduction of over £8000 for training costs to you? Even in year 4 onwards, their salaries aren't exactly top notch, given the large outlay most will have made to train.

Initial type ratings are invariably paid for by the newbie in one way or another. Sometimes it requires you to peer just slightly below the surface rather than simply accept information at face value...

[Boing7117]

Thanks pilotmike

You've just ruined it for me.

.......and here was me thinking FlyBe were looking out for me and giving me a helping hand on that aviation ladder

[Flintstone]

Originally Posted by KellyHopper

Flinty.
So with the likes of RYR about you can see yourself spending 50-60k on a licence, 20k on a type, line training pennies, etc. only to find yourself on a hugely reduced income after a year because of the way YOU did it? With lost income etc. that is about 100k spent to earn a minimalistic wage at the end working for a bast@rd company. Why Why Why are flying schools still in business?

Sorry, you've lost me with this one. See myself......... I can't see myself spending on TR's or line training. Never have, never will. I went the self improver route, paid my way as and when I had saved the cash. How does that contribute to the current **** state of things?

I agree with you on the b@stard company comment though. Some of them are shameless.

[dartagnan]

bastard company, I call that bastard block hours sellers...

go to you tube and search for "pilot shortage", amazing the videos shouting there is a pilot shortage in the world, and airline are so desperate.

that's the main problem, wanabes don't have a real clue of what' s going on.
Once we start to spend money, we have to spend more or loose all.

if you pay for hours, don't be surprised when an airline kick you out for another stupid copi-monkey with money!

[His dudeness]

I wonder why the role of our rulemakers has not been mentioned yet - in the "why do they put the pressure on us" way.

WHY does my ATP expire?

WHY do my T/R´s expire?

WHAT is the role of professional pilots associations in that?

WHO has a vital interest in putting that kind of pressure on us?

Whilst ANY civil servant could become e.g. a member of parliament for, say 8 years, and then has a guarantee to get his job back with NO lost seniority, I can not, because I won´t have a licence to fly with any more.

I´m not saying airlines did steer legislation in that direction, but they certainly are not sorry about it. It is high time we change to the FAA way in this matter.


I paid for my ATP, I have never paid a T/R and I won´t do so in future. I was DO for a small operator and I never took anyone that offered to fly for free or substandard T&C´s. But African Drunk has a point here, my next competitors did use selfpayers and even charged them for checkrides and all the mandatory courses, and they are still around whilst the company I worked for is closed (for other reasons, but I suspect if it would have been a better cash cow....)

[Kelly Hopper]

Flinty.

Sorry, 'twas a comment on your comments.
Replace "you can" for "one can!"
I was generalising.

KH.

[Clandestino]

I can't see myself spending on TR's or line training. Never have, never will.

And what will you do if your company goes bust and only ones employing are demanding SSTR with no waiver for those above 10 000 hrs but with all the wrong or expired ratings? If they ask you arm and leg to return you to currency? I'm not pointing it at anyone specific, I'm just telling you that not caring about newcomers and terms they are given can eventually bite back the old hands.

I know I won't pay... because I'll be unable to.

[clanger32]

I do have to say it's easy to to criticise those coming into the industry for paying ratings etc, when you're nicely ensconced in the LHS of a jet and earning bloody good money. Further, it's also easier to criticise those coming in, when you didn't have the same financial burden to entry that now exists.

In all honesty - and NOT trying to justify it - but ask yourself what would you do if you had just spent upwards of £50k to get your licence....as Dartagnan says, you either pay more to get the job, or you flush the whole bundle of used £50s down the pan... Or perhaps a better idea is to consider - as Clandestino suggests - what you'd do if the unthinkable happens and you lose your job, only to find your only option is to pay. It's easy to take the moral high ground when you're on the high ground already....It's NOT so easy to be moralistic when everything you've worked for is about to go down the plughole.

I think we all agree that paying to fly is a bad thing. I think we all agree we'd like it stopped, but unless and until someone does something it's here to stay and will only get worse. Personally - I think it's absolute bollocks to think the way to stop it is to call for all newbies to just stop paying -totally unworkable because there are too many people with too much invested. And that means people will always pay, because they can. The way to stop it is to stop airlines offering it as an option.

[Anonymus6]

paying for line training is getting harder these days. It is not easy to get loans as before, and turkish CAA has changed the rules for expat first officers. Now you need to have 500 hours Multi crew flying in a two crew aircraft. So no low timers anymore,,, Remember turkey use to be a big place for JAA low timers that was seeking line training.

But there are always some airlines that pops up suddenly that want to start charging money for line training. An emaple would be a recent company in Armenia is taking money for Airubs 320 line training.

Good luck

[Flintstone]

I've been banging on, ad nauseum, for years against buying TR's and paying to fly. Almost fifteen years ago I was offered a turboprop job providing I bought the rating. At the time I had 2500 hours, was bashing around the bush in C210s and C402s and was ten to fifteen years older than my peers so if anyone could have legitimately bought a career 'catch up' I think I could. I didn't. I've since refused more jobs than I can remember on the same basis. Did it slow my career progress? Undoubtedly, so please don't try to tell me I've no right to criticise this abhorrent system or those who feed it and then complain.

Buying TR's and jobs was around when I got into this industry albeit in a less prevalent form. I knew before I started my training and I planned accordingly. Many others have done the same and on the way have had times where we've taken jobs, even outside aviation, to pay our way and there's the difference. Some of us didn't just worsen our financial position by throwing more money at the problem. It's melodromatic to say that you'll flush £50,000 down the pan if you don't get an airline job immediately. Your licence won't just evaporate. How about biding your time until something else comes along? It's worked for thousands of others, what's changed in the last few years?

If I sound unsympathetic then maybe that's what fifteen years of telling people, who won't listen, how they're screwing the industry does to a person. I'm a patient man but a decade and a half of being told I'm wrong only to eventually see I was right......I think 'I told you so' is quite a restrained response. I'm not gloating, in fact I find it very, very disappointing and would much rather have been proven wrong.

Maybe if people stopped wanting everything now, now, now and refrained from looking down upon the 'lesser' jobs like instructing, air taxi work and the like they might find more support. Perhaps accept that they'll have to tread water for a bit, drive a lorry (done it), work in a warehouse (done it), sit behind a desk (done it), work in a pub (done it) until a job comes along instead of stamping their feet the 'oldies' might feel more inclined to respect their efforts.

Originally Posted by Clandestino

I'm just telling you that not caring about newcomers........

That's so far off the mark it's funny. I come from a background where people help each other out, a system I've benefitted from and contributed to. To my mind that's what one (thanks Kelly) does for others and because that's what others did for me. The more I look around the wannabee forums though the more I see people trying to work out ways to screw their peers which is very sad.

If the unthinkable happens? I'll do the same as I've always done and refuse to pay. Why do people find that so hard?

[His dudeness]

clanger32, I worked my butt off to get where I am. Yes I make good money NOW. Yes I´m in the left seat NOW. NO, I don´t take it lighthearted.

I started my 'work life' as an electrician. That earned me the money to get a PPL and part of the CPL. I worked 8 hrs in a factory and then spent hours and hours at the airport, gaining experience with 10 minutes hops to/from the maintenance base. I de-iced airplanes, I cleaned them, I helped the maintenance shop, I fueled them. I was around the airport for the better part 3 years to make enough money and time to get the IFR and finally landed a job as an F/O and I got the T/R on a KingAir. (in 1991, which was not a good time for Pilots as well)
I flew said KingAir for quite a while, did my FI, ATP and Longrange whilst doing so and got promoted to DO and MM.
I earned it the hard way.14 to 18 hour days where simply normal 7 days a week. Try to be DO/MM/TM/GM and Pilot as well as CRI and CRE for a 2 Aircraft/4 Pilot organization then you know what I talk about.
I´m sure here are quite a few people how have C.V.´s that are similar to mine.
Nowadays I receive applications of people that are 20 years old with an fATPL and that are willing and able to pay for a T/R. (actually its Mum and Dad doing so - one can tell because they went from School to flightschool).
These are people I´ll never employ. They are a thread to me and employment.

How can you think I didnt have a financial burden to carry? Yes, the ATP would have been a little cheaper, but in a regular job one earned also quite a lot less.

The sad thing is, the flightschools will still pump out a steady stream of new kids.

[clanger32]

Flinty,
Don't think you're wrong at all. I think you're very right indeed. However, where I think we're missing each other is that the fifty grand isn't "throwing money at the problem" - it's the base stakes now. It's the very minimum to even be in the game. You ain't even playing the game without spending that money - pay as you go or pay in one lump sum, make no difference - find £50k or don't "work" as a pilot. This £50k gets you the basic licence. The queue jumping bit is the NEXT bit of expenditure you're now expected to make - be that the £30k TR at Ryanair, or the abhorrent line training schemes.

"throwing £50k away" may seem a bit melodramatic to you, but it isn't actually....because if [one] was to take the moral high ground and refuse to pay for it, then you would never work.

Your own story is a testament to high morals, but unfortunately is not shared by pretty much the entire remainder of the industry. The bottom line, unfortunately is that if you did lose your job, as with any poor soul in that position your morals (or flying career) would last exactly as long as your bank balance allows. When you are refusing to answer the door, because it's someone in a brown coat come to take your possessions, I highly doubt anyone would be turning down a pay for a TR scheme...

[clanger32]

his Dudeness,
you'll note from the side panel that I too am no spring chicken. I too worked my ass off to pay for my own training, with no debt.
However, as per reply to Flintstone - how much did your licence cost you? Could you do the same thing now? I doubt it - but that's a question you need to ask yourself having REALLY looked at it. The thing is you look at it through retrospective eyes, not from the viewpoint of "how would I do it now".

I am full of admiration for anyone that works their ass off to get what they want/need, but your story hails from 1991, by your own admission....how long would it take you of that life to fund the £50k(ish) it now costs? I agree, people want it now, now, now and this is bad - indeed to my mind, one of the root causes the economy is in it's state. But the problem isn't with those people who start flying at 18, or the parents prepared to pay, it's to do with the fact that working as a sparky and then going to the field, whilst trying to live in an economy such as the current one is just about totally unviable now. That option has been just about totally removed by inflating costs of accomodation, living, flight training in particular, that has not been matched by associated rises in income - but people still live in the mistaken belief it IS viable. You're basing your expectations of peoples behaviour on what YOU did in 1991 when finances were substantially different. When a three bed detached house could be had for less than £60k. When flight training cost what? £20k? God knows I'm not seeking to validate the pay to fly generation. It is wrong. purely wrong. But the point is that working as a sparky now and generally trying to follow the route you did, would probably take C.10 years. And you're STILL faced at the end with either a pittance as an FI (again, for the record, which I think is wrong) or by paying. Stop living in the past, recognise the current world for all it's myriad of wrongs IS different and we may get some way to understanding WHY people behave the way they do. And once that behaviour is understood then perhaps the resolution can also be found. But whilst people just purely think that behaviour is driven by an unreasonable desire to NOT do "what I did - they don't know they're born" then it's incredibly easy to divide and conquer and it will never get better.

[Mikehotel152]

For what it's worth, I think Clanger32 has presented an erudite and factual run-down of the situation facing many newly qualified pilots. I could say more about how few real options are available to people like us but I fear I would be repeating what has already been said by Clanger32.

[Flintstone]

Thanks for not doing so then Mike, nothing worse than en echo.....echo....echo.........



Clanger. You CAN get into this industry without paying for a type rating. His dudeness is evidence of that, he's just written that he is deliberately biased toward those avoiding the buy-a-job route so to say it can't be done is not true. I've also been involved in recruitment for several years on the panels for companies you'd certainly have heard of and I did the same. I prefer self-improvers because I find them more committed and, having often worked in different branches of aviation, more rounded. A definite plus in the bizjet market. Many of the first ones are now flying Gulfstreams and Globals, others working for large airlines and none have paid for their type ratings or line training. I'm with His dudeness, anybody offering to buy a type rating and doesn't take the first hint goes in the round filing cabinet under the desk.

Anyone who says it can't be done is either fooling themselves or lacks the mettle to knuckle down to jobs they see as beneath them.


Edit. Just a couple of days ago I met a PPRuNe member and thoroughly nice bloke at Farnborough for an intial look around the place. He's keeping his full-time job to finance his training and knows this will take him at least another year and a half and he'll take whatever flying work he can without buying a job. That's the sort of person who I like to see get on.

[clanger32]

Essentially there are two points here, the first being about whether or not someone that offered to pay for a TR should be given a chance and the second being about whether the old school, work-hard-at-day-then-go-to-the-airfield-and-wash-planes approach is still viable.

The former - well, I've hired many, many people into different positions, but I haven't ever been involved in airline recruitment. Therefore all I can say is that I accept your greater experience in that field - although I think it's very, very dangerous to assume that a self improver is necessarily better than others. My guess is that the "best" talent, will actually be evenly split - but as you'll be aware, recruitment is always subjective and you, I and uncle Tom Cobley are at liberty to use whichever factors you wish to differentiate between candidates.

The latter. Well, I think you consistently miss the point around how bloody expensive it has become to get into the game. I don't know whether you think I'm lying around the average(ish) cost, or whether you just choose to ignore it. But it's a moot point, because with [genuine] respect, I seriously doubt you would stand up on a public forum and say "yeah, actually given how much more it costs now, than when I did it, I wouldn't be able to have done it same way". But rhetorically speaking, COULD you do it the way you did it now? Could you fund that fifty grand for your initial licence, whilst holding down two jobs?

As an example, following the Dudeness's reply earlier, I did a little [not very in depth] research - an average electricians salary apparently is around £14700 (which I hasten to add, I think the website may have wrong). Now, that leaves us £11800 p.a. after tax if we assume a £15k p.a salary. Less than a £1k a month. You seriously think you could flight train on that now AND live? A quick calculation and I reckon if you were prudent you could possibly squeeze 2 hours a month out of that. So, 75 months to even get the hours required to start a CPL - before we've got to the expensive part!

You are of course right, in that half the problem is a reticence TO do it, not so much that it's not possible. But I just ask that you stop and consider how many years you'd have to work to fund your training if you started now. It's all very well complaining that it's just the same noises again and again and again, but that doesn't stop those noises being true! Likewise, the deafening pining for a bygone era when the option TO work your way up the ranks is equally tedious.
The bottom line is the cost is [virtually] prohibitive to the routes you and the dudeness took now. People just cannot afford to spend £50k and then spend another 3 years earning maybe £20k as an FI whilst you wait for air taxi, or a turboprop job to come up, to earn - again - rubbish money.
This is where the problem comes in. I agree it's immoral, but this is why people pay for the ratings - because it gives them the pay back on the investment.

Unfortunately I can't really say what I want to, without taking pages and pages. Which I can't be arsed to write, which I suspect you can't be arsed to read and I'm pretty damned certain you wouldn't even partially agree with anyway. Therefore it's perhaps best discussed over a pint at some point, should we ever meet. FWIW, I don't think our perspectives are actually too disaligned.

[Flintstone]

£14500 a year as an electrician? Apprentice maybe but certainly not a qualified electrician. I also refer the learned gentleman to my ealrier post and the guy who came to Farnborough, a prime case of working and paying for training at the same time.

Why shouldn't the newly qualified shouldn't work their way up? How many professions can you think of where newly qualified people immediately earn the same as those with several years of experience? Even lorry drivers usually start off doing something like multi-drop in a white van (been there ) before driving 4.5 tonners (that too) then 'proper' HGV.

Agree to differ? Of course. See you for that beer sometime.

[wheresmyelephant]

Clanger, it is still possible. Spent years saving, got licences by going modular. Went to work as a rampy while applying for work. Got nowhere with applications (as i never offered to pay a type). Saved more, became an FI wasn't afraid to take the first job offered. Worked as FI on crap wage, took opportunities to fly pleasure flights and aerial work whenever it came up. Kept my nose clean and worked hard. A regional job came up with no question of paying out of my own pocket. Still where I am and slowly climbing the ladder.

This was all within the last five years, so it is still current. Have friends who have gone about it exactly the same way. None of us have paid ratings. It just takes a little tenacity.

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by clanger32

actually given how much more it costs now, than when I did it, I wouldn't be able to have done it same way

My thoughts exactly. I got sponsored through CPL + fATPL and didn't have to pay for my first rating. But it was in 1994. and 2000. respectively.