airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
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airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
I can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
Is it legal from a company who turns their business into a flight School or Flightclub?
if it was legal, where is their TRTO certificate or something to prove they can train students(and no pilots, because real pilot don't pay to work)?
HOW LEGAL IS THAT ??????is the CAA corrupt or what? how much they( CAA administrators) receive "under the table" to keep their mouth shut?
Why the CAA accept hours flown from these students (pilots) when time building has been done illegally?
Who is guilty? airlines? the CAA or the Government?
Do you think passengers are willing and happy to pay money to a "type rated student" to fly a 40T Jet?knowing he will take 0 responsibility...(oh!, I am paying to fly, they can't do anything against me, so I don't care if I screw up).
At least Madhof didn't play with your soul, but with your money only!
Please, explain me in WHAT
WORLD WE LIVE?
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
Is it legal from a company who turns their business into a flight School or Flightclub?
if it was legal, where is their TRTO certificate or something to prove they can train students(and no pilots, because real pilot don't pay to work)?
HOW LEGAL IS THAT ??????is the CAA corrupt or what? how much they( CAA administrators) receive "under the table" to keep their mouth shut?
Why the CAA accept hours flown from these students (pilots) when time building has been done illegally?
Who is guilty? airlines? the CAA or the Government?
Do you think passengers are willing and happy to pay money to a "type rated student" to fly a 40T Jet?knowing he will take 0 responsibility...(oh!, I am paying to fly, they can't do anything against me, so I don't care if I screw up).
At least Madhof didn't play with your soul, but with your money only!
Please, explain me in WHAT
WORLD WE LIVE?
Last edited by dartagnan; 27th Apr 2009 at 12:07.
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i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
??? where are you going to be for the next 20 years?
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Pilots are selfish and egotistical. They would sell their Grandmother if they thought it would give them an advantage.
It's a fact, airlines know it's a fact. They use it to their advantage. Pilots then bitch about it while dropping their trousers and bending over.
It's a fact, airlines know it's a fact. They use it to their advantage. Pilots then bitch about it while dropping their trousers and bending over.
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Pilots are selfish and egotistical.
A pilot’s choice to pay to play is his/her own. It’s not you or me to stand in judgment… that sir… would not only be egotistical… but arrogant to... as I find your statement to be!
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i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
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Well captjns, or Captjns as it really should be, where have you been the last 20+ years?
Stop living in times long gone. Character is no longer desired in this industry. It is now frowned upon
Screw or be screwed is the new motto.
Stop living in times long gone. Character is no longer desired in this industry. It is now frowned upon
Screw or be screwed is the new motto.
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O O
Line training on the fluff acting as a TCE on the fluff with a US carrier... where were you?
Well captjns, or Captjns as it really should be, where have you been the last 20+ years?
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I have one view on this matter. An airline who chooses their pilots on the only basis who will pay for their training, are in my opinion not a workplace with a bright future. On top of being not willing to invest in training, the T and C´s also are in the same manner. Companies will have difficulty in retaining their talent and experience if they have employees who paid for the job and do not think they owe the company sh..t.
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Quote:
i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
As long as we have pilots buy their own TR's...
i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
As long as we have pilots buy their own TR's...
Even a basic batchelors degree from a middling university is going to run you about 25 grand these days. Then what? Take a lawyer, Law school fees for example costs you alot - no salary and no job offer either at this point. Then a solicitor will do 2 years 'articles' on a salary that is pretty much minimum wage, Barristers will not earn at all (i,e work for free) and may have to pay some money to do their pupilage - oh my god - what horror - fancy demeaning yourself and paying to work
Anyone ever heard of 'internships' - much sought after training oportunities, often in the finance industry, in top companies - guess what - they don't get paid eitherAccountants, doctors (OK - they are paid by the ever generous NHS in the UK), teachers will all do postgrad training on low or zero salaries with not inconsiderable risk. So perhaps you can all stop whinging and thinking the world owes us a living.
Granted paying for hours is probably taking it a little far (although as i've said is little different to a barrister), but paying for the 1st type rating - find me an airline that doesn't do that one way or another. Even BA put cadets on a low salary for the first few years - you end up paying for the first rating one way or another.
There are some airlines around that have incredibly dubious employment practices - getting the newbies to pay for the training is not really that high up on the list of worries- or shouldn't be.
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Another point to bear in mind is that the experience levels some of these pilots present with, would never have found them a "proper jet job" historically. In the past most operators of jet aircraft would have sourced their first officers from both the military and those civilian pilots who had worked their way up through air taxis and later turbo prop operators, presenting themselves with at least 2 years experience and upwards of 1000 hours turbine experience.
This accelerating trend of "vanity publishing" jet co-pilot training is a great revenue set up, in that it not only substantially reduces the flightdeck cost element, but actually generates revenue from a non revenue seat. If companies could do away with 2 pilots they certainly would, but that is a complete non starter. This way is even better. The right hand seat is occupied by a revenue generator who actually subsidises the cost of the left hand seat.
I wonder how long it will be before a way is found to get the left seat to generate revenue in a similar way? I expect it is being seriously thought about. Only when an accident or serious incident occurs where (even though it may not be causal) this practice causes "Daily Mail/SKY News" type public outrage, will the regulators, operators and insurance industry run for the nearest rock, and restrictions to these practices will be brought in. However that will do nothing to provide "jet jobs" for these ridiculously low hour pilots, but will perhaps reverse a dangerous trend.
The advent of new generation jets with sophisticated autopilot/navigation and management/operating systems have made the real time role of a pilot much easier, to the point that the inherent skills and experience are no longer viewed as the pre-requisite they used to be. This is a mistake that will bite from time to time. The industry needs a more "Back to basics" philosophy and it needs to act quickly in my opinion.
This accelerating trend of "vanity publishing" jet co-pilot training is a great revenue set up, in that it not only substantially reduces the flightdeck cost element, but actually generates revenue from a non revenue seat. If companies could do away with 2 pilots they certainly would, but that is a complete non starter. This way is even better. The right hand seat is occupied by a revenue generator who actually subsidises the cost of the left hand seat.
I wonder how long it will be before a way is found to get the left seat to generate revenue in a similar way? I expect it is being seriously thought about. Only when an accident or serious incident occurs where (even though it may not be causal) this practice causes "Daily Mail/SKY News" type public outrage, will the regulators, operators and insurance industry run for the nearest rock, and restrictions to these practices will be brought in. However that will do nothing to provide "jet jobs" for these ridiculously low hour pilots, but will perhaps reverse a dangerous trend.
The advent of new generation jets with sophisticated autopilot/navigation and management/operating systems have made the real time role of a pilot much easier, to the point that the inherent skills and experience are no longer viewed as the pre-requisite they used to be. This is a mistake that will bite from time to time. The industry needs a more "Back to basics" philosophy and it needs to act quickly in my opinion.
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Only when an accident or serious incident occurs where (even though it may not be causal) this practice causes "Daily Mail/SKY News" type public outrage, will the regulators, operators and insurance industry run for the nearest rock, and restrictions to these practices will be brought in.
I don't really understand the revenue thing being subsidised by the F/O for the Skipper though.
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Read it again, including that contained within the brackets.
To illustrate the "revenue thing" Captain £100,000. F/O £58,000 = £158,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O =£0 =£100,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O = Paying £25000 to sit there = £75,000.
In the latter case, F/O not only no net cost, but actually subsidises left hand seat cost.
To illustrate the "revenue thing" Captain £100,000. F/O £58,000 = £158,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O =£0 =£100,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O = Paying £25000 to sit there = £75,000.
In the latter case, F/O not only no net cost, but actually subsidises left hand seat cost.
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I am going to get flamed, but... This is perhaps one of the only industries that depends on your own or your parents bank balance, rather than skill.
Before I get shot to bits by the better than thou police.. It's like driving anything, with the correct training ANYONE can do it.
I feel for the people with lots of natural ability but from the wrong background, and they find out too late. They can now afford lessons after years of dreaming and toil, but it's too late to advance past a PPL. Yes I consider my self the latter. How many who are now bitching about the way people are getting into right hand seats, have also paid one way or another??? it's all about money no matter who pays....
Before I get shot to bits by the better than thou police.. It's like driving anything, with the correct training ANYONE can do it.
I feel for the people with lots of natural ability but from the wrong background, and they find out too late. They can now afford lessons after years of dreaming and toil, but it's too late to advance past a PPL. Yes I consider my self the latter. How many who are now bitching about the way people are getting into right hand seats, have also paid one way or another??? it's all about money no matter who pays....
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PA38, I think it's unfair to say there is no skill involved. There is a basic level, and some people just have more of a knack than others I guess. What's all this about your own natural ability, and wrong background??
Guessing you're from the UK (as I am) that is just a fact of life, and you should already know this going by your age. It's the way things work there, and more so now, with these silly people who fall for all the bullsh*t told to them by the big name CPL/IR places, who feel they are better than everyone else as they will go to a great school, then get a jet job with 250hrs TT. Good for them.
Pilot's are seen as a higher class in the UK, flying an elite pursuit, and the old boys network and class system is still in force.
I had enough of that crap, so moved stateside, where flying isn't as elitist as in the UK, and with experience and time, any job is open to pretty much anyone. Sure they have airline academies, but they still have good old spit and sawdust flight schools which teach you the art of flying, as opposed to the UK way of saying FREDA,HASELL,BUMPFICH etc at every opportunity, instead of using your hands and feet and controlling your airplane to a good standard while knowing what your doing, and why you're doing it. GA is also doing well here, and you can still make a worthwhile career doing more of the hands-on (more skillful?!) flying you're familiar with from your PPL.
There is an apparent lack of skill in contemporary commercial aviation, what with perfectly serviceable Airbii ploughing into the sea, 737s stalling on final, MD83's flying towards hotels instead of runways, crews landing on taxiways, MD11's cart-wheeling down runways etc etc. There are also more than enough light 'plane "weekend fliers" with their "I'm a stick and rudder, not autopilot guy" who are still killing themselves turning base to final and in other "simple" flight regimes.
I see what you're saying PA38... I fly tailwheel and aerobatics, and am a proficient pilot regarded by my peers as "a good stick" having a good feel for the airplane. I always have, it comes easy to me. (I'm not blowing my own trumpet) I have numerous friends, two in particular are from the UK, who either trained with CTC or Oxford Aviation Academy, and 80 grand later are now flying an Easyjet A319, and 757 for Thomas Cook. So yes, bank balance is important, and it may be about money to get with the big boys, but that doesn't mean you can't be just as good a pilot flying a light twin around (at night in IMC 
), or flying precision aerobatics on a weekend. It's what you make of it. The grass is always greener, and it's not all about flying fighter jets with the RAF, or a 747 for BA.
My own view is that EVERYONE with a fATPL should simply say b*ll*cks, and don't pay for anything other than their licences. If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, what would the airlines do? Stop hiring..? I doubt it. As long as pilots are willing to accommodate them, the airlines will still have the upper hand and be able to call the shots.
Guessing you're from the UK (as I am) that is just a fact of life, and you should already know this going by your age. It's the way things work there, and more so now, with these silly people who fall for all the bullsh*t told to them by the big name CPL/IR places, who feel they are better than everyone else as they will go to a great school, then get a jet job with 250hrs TT. Good for them.
Pilot's are seen as a higher class in the UK, flying an elite pursuit, and the old boys network and class system is still in force.I had enough of that crap, so moved stateside, where flying isn't as elitist as in the UK, and with experience and time, any job is open to pretty much anyone. Sure they have airline academies, but they still have good old spit and sawdust flight schools which teach you the art of flying, as opposed to the UK way of saying FREDA,HASELL,BUMPFICH etc at every opportunity, instead of using your hands and feet and controlling your airplane to a good standard while knowing what your doing, and why you're doing it. GA is also doing well here, and you can still make a worthwhile career doing more of the hands-on (more skillful?!) flying you're familiar with from your PPL.
There is an apparent lack of skill in contemporary commercial aviation, what with perfectly serviceable Airbii ploughing into the sea, 737s stalling on final, MD83's flying towards hotels instead of runways, crews landing on taxiways, MD11's cart-wheeling down runways etc etc. There are also more than enough light 'plane "weekend fliers" with their "I'm a stick and rudder, not autopilot guy" who are still killing themselves turning base to final and in other "simple" flight regimes.
I see what you're saying PA38... I fly tailwheel and aerobatics, and am a proficient pilot regarded by my peers as "a good stick" having a good feel for the airplane. I always have, it comes easy to me. (I'm not blowing my own trumpet)
I have numerous friends, two in particular are from the UK, who either trained with CTC or Oxford Aviation Academy, and 80 grand later are now flying an Easyjet A319, and 757 for Thomas Cook. So yes, bank balance is important, and it may be about money to get with the big boys, but that doesn't mean you can't be just as good a pilot flying a light twin around (at night in IMC ), or flying precision aerobatics on a weekend. It's what you make of it. The grass is always greener, and it's not all about flying fighter jets with the RAF, or a 747 for BA.My own view is that EVERYONE with a fATPL should simply say b*ll*cks, and don't pay for anything other than their licences. If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, what would the airlines do? Stop hiring..? I doubt it. As long as pilots are willing to accommodate them, the airlines will still have the upper hand and be able to call the shots.
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"If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, what would the airlines do? Stop hiring..? I doubt it."
sapperkenno; lovely theory, but with everyone so desperate for a job out of training a union of 'no TR until YOU pay for it' seems a little distant. As you rightly say the airlines do have an upper hand.
However I've always believed that not enough is being done by the government regarding fATPL studies. I'm sure with the new tax system in uk (50% over 150,000 income), cutting VAT from the cost of an integrated ATPL zero to hero wouldn't really make a significant impact on the desk of Mr Darling? This would save thousands for the individual, probably enough to Include a TR at the end!
It seems Joe Bloggs, who has always dreamed of being a Pilot but hasn't been blessed with a financially sound family really has to pay through the nose to make his dream come true. Might be a little easier with a bit of help through the Tax office...
Just a theory....maybe a little distant too!!
sapperkenno; lovely theory, but with everyone so desperate for a job out of training a union of 'no TR until YOU pay for it' seems a little distant. As you rightly say the airlines do have an upper hand.
However I've always believed that not enough is being done by the government regarding fATPL studies. I'm sure with the new tax system in uk (50% over 150,000 income), cutting VAT from the cost of an integrated ATPL zero to hero wouldn't really make a significant impact on the desk of Mr Darling? This would save thousands for the individual, probably enough to Include a TR at the end!
It seems Joe Bloggs, who has always dreamed of being a Pilot but hasn't been blessed with a financially sound family really has to pay through the nose to make his dream come true. Might be a little easier with a bit of help through the Tax office...
Just a theory....maybe a little distant too!!
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Mercenary Pilot. I was just going to point Captjns to the Thomas Cook incident. There are quite a lot more occurances that have not resulted in an investigation but have been close calls. A friend of mine is flying mostly with so called "Cadet level pilots" he says that their performace or attitude apparently leaves a lot to be desired. Most of them would have never gotten a job flying a jet had they not paid for their own type rating.
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JJ and Merc... what was the experience level of the guys about to land on the hotel roof in DUB? Uhh the KAL crew that flew a perfect approach to the Guam VOR??? and then there was the lastest and greatest into AMS??? and then there was.... and.... and....
Over the past 30 years, I given line training to the so called 250 hour wonder birds who were legends in their own minds. After some attitude some motivating speeches and adjustments all was good. Those who did not come to grips of the real world... lets say they went on to bigger and better.
JJ and Merc... either you guys are too young or to old to remember that back in the '60s US carriers hired the same 250 hour wonder birds with a commercial ticket and in some cases no instrument ratings and are now the sky gods of today... and yes some of them drove their jets into the ground too.
Over the past 30 years, I given line training to the so called 250 hour wonder birds who were legends in their own minds. After some attitude some motivating speeches and adjustments all was good. Those who did not come to grips of the real world... lets say they went on to bigger and better.
JJ and Merc... either you guys are too young or to old to remember that back in the '60s US carriers hired the same 250 hour wonder birds with a commercial ticket and in some cases no instrument ratings and are now the sky gods of today... and yes some of them drove their jets into the ground too.
Last edited by captjns; 27th Apr 2009 at 05:56.