airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
I'm not sure the same market forces do apply. Medicine and engineering are "gated" by the academic nature of the courses, and I stand to be corrected but I think in the UK at least the prospective legal Beagle has been funding large portions of their initial training for some time.
I hate to say it but like it or not the academic qualifications required to enrol for your ATPL course are fairly minimal, therefore there's an over supply of suitably qualified students right from the get go.
I hate to say it but like it or not the academic qualifications required to enrol for your ATPL course are fairly minimal, therefore there's an over supply of suitably qualified students right from the get go.
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Wow, Wiggy,
You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?
The system is allowing anyone with a rudimentary education and enough money to be in charge of people's lives?
Is the system broken?
You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?
The system is allowing anyone with a rudimentary education and enough money to be in charge of people's lives?
Is the system broken?
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My Dear colleagues here at the pprune, Alexander de Meerkat, Captain Boycott, departures131 I can nothing but agree with you. All your comments make sense to me and I appreciate your contribution.
Most of my post is “copy/paste” and I quoted it, post written by despegue in August 2013. The post was commented by only one member and I thought that some people here owe us some sort of comment on it or in that direction.
I found it interesting and that was my attempt to show the point to our loud colleagues, experienced pilots which are bitching, complaining using “censored” words and at the end of the day unfortunately do not contribute with anything useful and constructive to the discussion here neither they do something to influence this negative trend.
So I do agree with you that problem is much larger and solution cannot only be “stop paying for work” as many here suggested. Should CAA regulate it or don’t, make bigger entry requirements, limit the number of qualified people… all of it or none of it, probable much more of something else…I do not know, but please keep the decent tone and try to be constructive, try to see both sides of the medal…. Over and Out…
Most of my post is “copy/paste” and I quoted it, post written by despegue in August 2013. The post was commented by only one member and I thought that some people here owe us some sort of comment on it or in that direction.
I found it interesting and that was my attempt to show the point to our loud colleagues, experienced pilots which are bitching, complaining using “censored” words and at the end of the day unfortunately do not contribute with anything useful and constructive to the discussion here neither they do something to influence this negative trend.
So I do agree with you that problem is much larger and solution cannot only be “stop paying for work” as many here suggested. Should CAA regulate it or don’t, make bigger entry requirements, limit the number of qualified people… all of it or none of it, probable much more of something else…I do not know, but please keep the decent tone and try to be constructive, try to see both sides of the medal…. Over and Out…
Wiggy actually put it far more diplomatically than I would. No doubt, if you have the money and the time, you can be thick as a brick and by sheer rote learning, eventually qualify to be a pilot.
This is the greatest danger with pay-to-fly. I could give a classic example of this. Of someone flying as F/O on medium jets with an international operator right now. Absolutely unsuited to the task. But the person would be so easily recognised by some, that to elaborate further with first-hand horror stories about this guy would probably invite a lawsuit from his Daddy's lawyers.
Unscrupulous managements will move the goal posts out as wide as they need to be to capture p2f pilots with not much more than a pulse to fill the right seat. The crunch will come (literally) when they run out of competent commanders.
This is the greatest danger with pay-to-fly. I could give a classic example of this. Of someone flying as F/O on medium jets with an international operator right now. Absolutely unsuited to the task. But the person would be so easily recognised by some, that to elaborate further with first-hand horror stories about this guy would probably invite a lawsuit from his Daddy's lawyers.
Unscrupulous managements will move the goal posts out as wide as they need to be to capture p2f pilots with not much more than a pulse to fill the right seat. The crunch will come (literally) when they run out of competent commanders.
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If incompetent operators are being put in to the RHS of an airliner then someone is not doing there job properly.
May I remind you all the process to even qualify to sit in the RHS.
PPL 7 theory examination's plus 2 flight test's
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects
I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.
This industry does have standards
My point being that not anyone (a so called dummy can make it to the RHS of an airliner whether they paid or not without getting through these tests.
May I remind you all the process to even qualify to sit in the RHS.
PPL 7 theory examination's plus 2 flight test's
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects
I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.
This industry does have standards
My point being that not anyone (a so called dummy can make it to the RHS of an airliner whether they paid or not without getting through these tests.
Wow, Wiggy,
You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?
You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?
Just to be clear that wouldn't be my choice of words, I don't think "thickos" would be very good at the job, and probably/hopefully wouldn't last very long at most credible companies....
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Splitting Hairs.. but.. if a candidate pays 120K Euro for a type rating and 300 hrs line training, and then receives a low basic salary of say 2500E during this "training period", are they paying to fly by virtue of the inflated training costs?Examination of new contracts and employment conditions suggests the airlines are merely reducing their training risks until line check, i.e covering all the bases, of course they then have the pick of the crop for permanent positions, however, it is very common for new entrants to be on 6 months probation..and have a temporary extension after 3 months..In reality, no one is going to refuse to operate with a PTF person, you are confusing the role of the professional aviator with moral considerations and policies made by the commercial bean counters which are outside the job remit of a pilot.
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2 Commercial pilots finish flight school in 2003 with CPL MECIR.
The first Pilot Buys an Instructor Rating for $18,000 and is taken on by his flight school as a grade 3 instructor, he is flying mainly Warriors and 172's, his week is pretty quiet and most of his work comes on weekends, when the weather is good, when the Grade 1 and 2 pilots don't have enough time to do the flights.
His pay per week is around $350
After two years of this he gets a charter job doing scenic flights on a bigger SEP C206 but his pay is not much better at just $450 per week, he does this for a further 3 years and then gets a job at a regional airline flying a Fairchild Metro III as a co pilot, his pay in this job starts at about $600 per week, he does this for 3 years and then gets upgraded to Captain earning $1,200 per week.
Now here is where this story gets interesting, over a 10 year period this guy has earned in the region of $321,880 bucks less his instructor rating (18k) less his intial flight training (80k) and he is looking at a figure of around the $223,880 mark over a 10 year period he is averaging around 1800 bucks per month Gross.
Now remember the other guy that finished flight school around the same time?
yes you guessed it he went down the line training route, he bought a Type rating right out of flight school, B737NG that cost him $15,000
He then proceeded with a line training company for 500 hours in the 737 that cost him $90,000 it took him 12 months to finish the line training and then he was offered a job with the same airline as a first officer, bearing in mind he earned no money during the line training so additional cost's of $12,000 for his accom and living.
His initial salary was low but not as bad as his instructor friends! he was taking $1,100 per week. he was flying a lot as well around 100 hours per month he did this for the next 5 years and then managed to score a FO gig with one of the majors, his salary now was around the $2,500 per week mark, after 3 years he managed to get his first command and now makes $4,000 per week.
So when you stack his figures up over the last 10 years he has earned $884,000 less the intial training (80k) less his type rating (15k) less his LT (90K Ouch!) less his cost of living (12k) over last 10 years he has Grossed $687,000 that is almost HALF A MILLION Dollars more than his friend!
This is a true story, however its not quite what you think, the guy that went Bush is a very experienced Captain and continues to fly the Metro III, he gets a good quality of time with his 2 kids and wife and they live quietly in the country side. not to mention he is one of the most knowledgeable pilots I know.
However the Line training guy is Single, he lives in hotels and has no free time at all, he is always flying, he has a stack of money in the bank but nobody to enjoy it with, he has lost touch with most of his friends and is sick and tired of living out of a suitcase, he quite often cant remember what day it is!. his flying knowledge and skill consist of radar vectors and ILS!
Now you tell me who is the better off here!
The first Pilot Buys an Instructor Rating for $18,000 and is taken on by his flight school as a grade 3 instructor, he is flying mainly Warriors and 172's, his week is pretty quiet and most of his work comes on weekends, when the weather is good, when the Grade 1 and 2 pilots don't have enough time to do the flights.
His pay per week is around $350
After two years of this he gets a charter job doing scenic flights on a bigger SEP C206 but his pay is not much better at just $450 per week, he does this for a further 3 years and then gets a job at a regional airline flying a Fairchild Metro III as a co pilot, his pay in this job starts at about $600 per week, he does this for 3 years and then gets upgraded to Captain earning $1,200 per week.
Now here is where this story gets interesting, over a 10 year period this guy has earned in the region of $321,880 bucks less his instructor rating (18k) less his intial flight training (80k) and he is looking at a figure of around the $223,880 mark over a 10 year period he is averaging around 1800 bucks per month Gross.
Now remember the other guy that finished flight school around the same time?
yes you guessed it he went down the line training route, he bought a Type rating right out of flight school, B737NG that cost him $15,000
He then proceeded with a line training company for 500 hours in the 737 that cost him $90,000 it took him 12 months to finish the line training and then he was offered a job with the same airline as a first officer, bearing in mind he earned no money during the line training so additional cost's of $12,000 for his accom and living.
His initial salary was low but not as bad as his instructor friends! he was taking $1,100 per week. he was flying a lot as well around 100 hours per month he did this for the next 5 years and then managed to score a FO gig with one of the majors, his salary now was around the $2,500 per week mark, after 3 years he managed to get his first command and now makes $4,000 per week.
So when you stack his figures up over the last 10 years he has earned $884,000 less the intial training (80k) less his type rating (15k) less his LT (90K Ouch!) less his cost of living (12k) over last 10 years he has Grossed $687,000 that is almost HALF A MILLION Dollars more than his friend!
This is a true story, however its not quite what you think, the guy that went Bush is a very experienced Captain and continues to fly the Metro III, he gets a good quality of time with his 2 kids and wife and they live quietly in the country side. not to mention he is one of the most knowledgeable pilots I know.
However the Line training guy is Single, he lives in hotels and has no free time at all, he is always flying, he has a stack of money in the bank but nobody to enjoy it with, he has lost touch with most of his friends and is sick and tired of living out of a suitcase, he quite often cant remember what day it is!. his flying knowledge and skill consist of radar vectors and ILS!
Now you tell me who is the better off here!
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After two years of this he gets a charter job doing scenic flights on a bigger SEP C206 but his pay is not much better at just $450 per week, he does this for a further 3 years and then gets a job at a regional airline flying a Fairchild Metro III as a co pilot, his pay in this job starts at about $600 per week, he does this for 3 years and then gets upgraded to Captain earning $1,200 per week.
Vastly improved...same staircase I climbed...except as Metro FO I made 850 per MONTH, and as Capt 1350 per MONTH...mind you it was the early 80's..
Vastly improved...same staircase I climbed...except as Metro FO I made 850 per MONTH, and as Capt 1350 per MONTH...mind you it was the early 80's..
PPL 7 theory examination's plus 2 flight test's
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects
I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects
I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.
Yet many of these people get the licence, pay vast amounts to get into a cockpit, and then believe they are hotshots. You should see how many First Officers fail the command upgrade these days because they haven't developed airmanship skills because they simply don't 'get it' - that's a lack of intelligence in my book.
If you want to be a professional pilot stretch your mind, work hard, but above all, do an aptitude test!
I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.
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Well I am sorry to hear you have to deal with such un qualified pilots
If a person can get through the long list i mentioned above thats good enough for me.
Flying is not rocket science after all although it may appear to be to some.
This industry is incrediabley bitchy, esspecialy on an anoyminous forum like this.
I however will never be involved myself, I just offer advice based on another industry.
If a person can get through the long list i mentioned above thats good enough for me.
Flying is not rocket science after all although it may appear to be to some.
This industry is incrediabley bitchy, esspecialy on an anoyminous forum like this.
I however will never be involved myself, I just offer advice based on another industry.
Last edited by departures131; 29th Dec 2013 at 18:25.
I just offer advice based on another industry
Sadly, despite all the talk of CRM and human factors, the training system does not weed-out these people. Indeed, it panders to them. He who shouts loudest and acts with the most unfounded assertiveness is lauded in airlines the world over. Sad but true.
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Even the pilots pay on some low-cost flights - News & Advice - Travel - The Independent
Pilots' unions and trainee pilots are warning that only the wealthiest, rather than the best, candidates will become pilots because growing numbers of airlines are having cadets "pay to fly".
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Departures131
The problem with your list of hurdles for a prospective pilot is that none of them are hard.
Some might take some effort, but essentially, if you are hard working you will eventually pass.
And as we all know, nothing is more dangerous than a hard working cretin.
The exams themselves are now just a multi guess piece of wee wee. A hurdle instantly forgotten with info dumped from short term memory days after the exam.
If a company is paying, they will chop students who take too long.
If an individual with very deep pockets is paying he will eventually get the book in his hand.
The problem with your list of hurdles for a prospective pilot is that none of them are hard.
Some might take some effort, but essentially, if you are hard working you will eventually pass.
And as we all know, nothing is more dangerous than a hard working cretin.
The exams themselves are now just a multi guess piece of wee wee. A hurdle instantly forgotten with info dumped from short term memory days after the exam.
If a company is paying, they will chop students who take too long.
If an individual with very deep pockets is paying he will eventually get the book in his hand.
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In fact some are completely witless. Many don't have A-Levels. Some would struggle with a GCSE.
For goodness sake, please read my comment in the context in which it was written: the previous poster to mine suggested that pilots need 'at least A-Levels to properly understand the subjects' and implied that commercial pilots have to be academically gifted to reach the hallowed cockpit.
They do not, and many are not.
They do not, and many are not.
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mikeHotel152,
Those not academically gifted might learn the questionbase, but in order to understand the 14 ATPL subjects properly, you DO need to have the intellect to pass several A levels. Problem is that nowadays, most FO 's do not have a clue about the ATPL theory, and as a result their Airmanship has been compromised since groundschool
Get back some strict academical and psychological entry tests now! Eliminate the questionbank, replace the multiple choice by open questions and oral examinations and we will quickly see an increase of quality in the cockpit. The rot always starts from the basement...
Those not academically gifted might learn the questionbase, but in order to understand the 14 ATPL subjects properly, you DO need to have the intellect to pass several A levels. Problem is that nowadays, most FO 's do not have a clue about the ATPL theory, and as a result their Airmanship has been compromised since groundschool
Get back some strict academical and psychological entry tests now! Eliminate the questionbank, replace the multiple choice by open questions and oral examinations and we will quickly see an increase of quality in the cockpit. The rot always starts from the basement...