airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
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I agree with the post above, but it is still better to be paid for a type rating than being paid. the big advantage, even if you make less money, you don't have to borrow the cash, and if your airline collapses or kick you out, you have a free type rating.
the second problem, is not about paying for a type rating or not, it' s to pay for everything included line training and block time.
now airlines sell 300-500-1000 hours for a lot of money.
in fact in this job, you never make money as now people pay to work...
if we don't do anything, soon, captains will have to pay too.
only flight attendants refuse to pay, because they are smarter
than you.
Pilots who pay to fly don't understand why they are kicked out of the company after having paid for their first 500h
.
the second problem, is not about paying for a type rating or not, it' s to pay for everything included line training and block time.
now airlines sell 300-500-1000 hours for a lot of money.
in fact in this job, you never make money as now people pay to work...
if we don't do anything, soon, captains will have to pay too.
only flight attendants refuse to pay, because they are smarter
than you.Pilots who pay to fly don't understand why they are kicked out of the company after having paid for their first 500h
.
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Please excuse my 'thread creep' but I have never been furnished with an answer to my RYR question.
Do BRK guarantee a minimum number of hours to their RYR drivers?
In Biz Jets ( my area of expertise ) we refer to this as a 'fix' . For example: Many EU owners guarantee at least 10 days per month.
If there is no minimum days fix then surely RYR can just keep selling Type Ratings / Jobs without a care in the world. So what if your pilots only get 10 hours a month?
Great little earner isn't it?
I have no hidden agenda in my question, I would just be curious to know if my assumption is correct?
Do BRK guarantee a minimum number of hours to their RYR drivers?
In Biz Jets ( my area of expertise ) we refer to this as a 'fix' . For example: Many EU owners guarantee at least 10 days per month.
If there is no minimum days fix then surely RYR can just keep selling Type Ratings / Jobs without a care in the world. So what if your pilots only get 10 hours a month?
Great little earner isn't it?
I have no hidden agenda in my question, I would just be curious to know if my assumption is correct?
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What about Flybe?
TR paid for on the Q400. Bond reduces over 3 years and you're liable for a pro-rated amount should you leave within this time.
No reduced starting salary either.....
TR paid for on the Q400. Bond reduces over 3 years and you're liable for a pro-rated amount should you leave within this time.
No reduced starting salary either.....
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BigNumber -
I'll have a go at answering, although this is based on what I have read and I have no real definitive and scientifically based answer.
I believe the answer is no, there is no guaranteed minimum number of hours. However, the payscale is set such that it is very much in FYR's favour to fly those with less than 500 hours TT over those with more than 500hours.
The current favourite rumour is that this is being leveraged - and once you hit 500 hours, you can expect a big downturn in your flying hours. Meanwhile, more and more are recruited into the hold pool.... all lends credence to your assumption that it's being used as a profit centre.
All of that said, I have to say that I see more crap talked about Ryanair than almost any other subject - and I subscribe to the "backed-up-toilet-information-network" (Butt-in?) So who knows.
Boing 7117 - RE: FlyBE - I'd love to work for them and yes, you may well be right that there is only the bond to consider - but the money there really isn't a very good return on an £50k + initial training investment. That said, still have your arm off for a chance - just trying to point out that it's not that you're earning great money and not paying a TR. It's also very much the exception, not the rule (I believe)
RE: the point on having the employer pay the rating, being a better bet....is it?
That surely depends on your perspective....if you have the cash to pay a rating, then personally I'd rather pay up front and have the extra cash.... Clearly however, if you've exhausted all your captial/credit getting the initial training, then not paying a TR is a massive benefit Taking the BA scheme details I mentioned earlier, I'd far rather pay £20k up front for a rating and be on £48k than have them pay for the rating and be paid £31k a year for any more than one year....but I believe the lower pay rate is maintained until you un-freeze - so realistically at the very least two years...
I'll have a go at answering, although this is based on what I have read and I have no real definitive and scientifically based answer.
I believe the answer is no, there is no guaranteed minimum number of hours. However, the payscale is set such that it is very much in FYR's favour to fly those with less than 500 hours TT over those with more than 500hours.
The current favourite rumour is that this is being leveraged - and once you hit 500 hours, you can expect a big downturn in your flying hours. Meanwhile, more and more are recruited into the hold pool.... all lends credence to your assumption that it's being used as a profit centre.
All of that said, I have to say that I see more crap talked about Ryanair than almost any other subject - and I subscribe to the "backed-up-toilet-information-network" (Butt-in?) So who knows.
Boing 7117 - RE: FlyBE - I'd love to work for them and yes, you may well be right that there is only the bond to consider - but the money there really isn't a very good return on an £50k + initial training investment. That said, still have your arm off for a chance - just trying to point out that it's not that you're earning great money and not paying a TR. It's also very much the exception, not the rule (I believe)
RE: the point on having the employer pay the rating, being a better bet....is it?
That surely depends on your perspective....if you have the cash to pay a rating, then personally I'd rather pay up front and have the extra cash.... Clearly however, if you've exhausted all your captial/credit getting the initial training, then not paying a TR is a massive benefit Taking the BA scheme details I mentioned earlier, I'd far rather pay £20k up front for a rating and be on £48k than have them pay for the rating and be paid £31k a year for any more than one year....but I believe the lower pay rate is maintained until you un-freeze - so realistically at the very least two years...
Last edited by clanger32; 8th May 2009 at 11:52.
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Please rename the thread "Pilots who let airlines charge them to fly"
No but seriously,as long as you have pilots with such widely divergent views(dartagnan vs 757driver) then you will of course have airlines exploiting the situation.This issue can only be protected by the power of an union.
757drivers view is very dangerous IMHO.Never pay to fly a commercial aircraft.Pay for training if you have to and expect low remuneration during probation but never ever pay the airline to fly.Its a very dangerous and immoral concept.Just which euro companies are doing this?
No but seriously,as long as you have pilots with such widely divergent views(dartagnan vs 757driver) then you will of course have airlines exploiting the situation.This issue can only be protected by the power of an union.
757drivers view is very dangerous IMHO.Never pay to fly a commercial aircraft.Pay for training if you have to and expect low remuneration during probation but never ever pay the airline to fly.Its a very dangerous and immoral concept.Just which euro companies are doing this?
Once upon a time, those who lived to work were unable to affect the terms and conditions of those who worked to live.
Sadly, this story doesn't end with "happily ever after."
Sadly, this story doesn't end with "happily ever after."
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bignumber,
usually airlines don't respect contract.
I have been in airlines who lied, and change the contract after you sign it, or asked you to sign or kick you out. You sign the contract, but they never sign it.
they all do that! and if you want go to court, they know most guys don't know the legal procedure, or don't want take a lawyer.
If they find you to be part of an Union, they won't hire you.I quit Balpa for this reason...cuz if you part of Balpa, it's much harder to find a job.
So your question about minimum hours?ahah, another story to attract wanabes.
usually airlines don't respect contract.
I have been in airlines who lied, and change the contract after you sign it, or asked you to sign or kick you out. You sign the contract, but they never sign it.
they all do that! and if you want go to court, they know most guys don't know the legal procedure, or don't want take a lawyer.
If they find you to be part of an Union, they won't hire you.I quit Balpa for this reason...cuz if you part of Balpa, it's much harder to find a job.
So your question about minimum hours?ahah, another story to attract wanabes.
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""cuz if you part of Balpa, it's much harder to find a job.""
That my friend is complete an utter BS. There is only one major airline who doesn't recognise BALPA but it won't be long before they have to.
I have now flown for 4 major UK airlines (as a result of sept 11) and not once have I ever been asked if I was a BALPA member.
So when you make that major clanger, which we all will, who is going to stop them taking your house and car and maybe your wife and kids when they drag your sorry ass out of court.
Freeloaders!!
That my friend is complete an utter BS. There is only one major airline who doesn't recognise BALPA but it won't be long before they have to.
I have now flown for 4 major UK airlines (as a result of sept 11) and not once have I ever been asked if I was a BALPA member.
So when you make that major clanger, which we all will, who is going to stop them taking your house and car and maybe your wife and kids when they drag your sorry ass out of court.
Freeloaders!!
Sorry Dartagan - Do you have a job?
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IBICF,
I applaud your morals. I applaud you for taking a stand, however, I think you are badly misguided unless you have already past the hurdle that the first job and first rating represents. If you are through training and looking for a first job, as I am, then I rather suspect that you will struggle badly to find anything at all over the next couple of years. Even more so if you consider that you WILL be paying for the rating if you join an airline with a "bond" and a reduced salary.
This isn't the way it should be. This isn't right. This isn't fair. This is, however, life and life, as my mum used to tell me everytime I wasn't allowed whatever it was my five year old fingers were trying to grasp, ISN'T fair.
I wish you all the best of luck, but suggest for a newbie a more pragmatic approach may yield better dividends. You have a family to feed - well having paid a wacking great sum of cash to train to CPL/ME/IR and never getting a job through a moral stance won't do that either...
I applaud your morals. I applaud you for taking a stand, however, I think you are badly misguided unless you have already past the hurdle that the first job and first rating represents. If you are through training and looking for a first job, as I am, then I rather suspect that you will struggle badly to find anything at all over the next couple of years. Even more so if you consider that you WILL be paying for the rating if you join an airline with a "bond" and a reduced salary.
This isn't the way it should be. This isn't right. This isn't fair. This is, however, life and life, as my mum used to tell me everytime I wasn't allowed whatever it was my five year old fingers were trying to grasp, ISN'T fair.
I wish you all the best of luck, but suggest for a newbie a more pragmatic approach may yield better dividends. You have a family to feed - well having paid a wacking great sum of cash to train to CPL/ME/IR and never getting a job through a moral stance won't do that either...
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yes, I got a job finally...but I don't mention anymore if am part of Balpa or not. I let white or I answer "no".
BMI asked me this question years ago in their application form.
go to ryanair, and say you are part of a Union...!!!they have ejection seat now in their new 737, remotely controlled from their office!
BMI asked me this question years ago in their application form.
go to ryanair, and say you are part of a Union...!!!they have ejection seat now in their new 737, remotely controlled from their office!
I am glad that you now have a job.
I wish you the very best of luck with it.
Is it aviation based?
I wish you the very best of luck with it.
Is it aviation based?
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Clanger 32.
Unfortunately because the precedent has been set it is not just the 1st type rating you will be expected to fund. The rot continues now throughout this miserable career and you can look forward to being asked to fund all ratings til retirement! Then what will you live on?
Unfortunately because the precedent has been set it is not just the 1st type rating you will be expected to fund. The rot continues now throughout this miserable career and you can look forward to being asked to fund all ratings til retirement! Then what will you live on?
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Kelly,
I suspect you may well be right and if it continues unabated then I think it's incredibly sad. Hopefully - HOPEFULLY - at some point the pilot body will take a stand and say no more....we will see.
However, I personally think we're already at the point where us newbies need to accept that we will be paying for that first rating one way or another.....
Once the first rating is done, you may or may not be required to pay or contribute to subsequent ratings - but if you've had the first I think you've probably got a fighting chance of getting your own way if you take the moral high ground and refuse to pay!
Such a shame. I really honestly hope it stops before there is nothing left...
I suspect you may well be right and if it continues unabated then I think it's incredibly sad. Hopefully - HOPEFULLY - at some point the pilot body will take a stand and say no more....we will see.
However, I personally think we're already at the point where us newbies need to accept that we will be paying for that first rating one way or another.....
Once the first rating is done, you may or may not be required to pay or contribute to subsequent ratings - but if you've had the first I think you've probably got a fighting chance of getting your own way if you take the moral high ground and refuse to pay!
Such a shame. I really honestly hope it stops before there is nothing left...
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You can still get on in the industry, albeit a bit slower, without buying a TR/job. That's how it used to be done and those paying into these schemes help perpetuate the rot.
The 'anti' argument used to be that by paying out to these companies you would weaken T&C's in years to come. While that still holds it seems that pay(back) day arrives sooner than that. I've spoken to three RYR first officers this week and all said their flying (and therefore income) has been reduced since they passed the 500 hour mark and the next wave of job-buyers were given 'their' flying. Two were in debt up to their eyeballs and are unsure if they can make their repayments on their reduced income.
I'm resigned to the fact that there are some selfish people in this world who will do whatever it takes to get what they want and to hell with how it affects others. It now seems that, rightly some may say, it will affect them first.
The 'anti' argument used to be that by paying out to these companies you would weaken T&C's in years to come. While that still holds it seems that pay(back) day arrives sooner than that. I've spoken to three RYR first officers this week and all said their flying (and therefore income) has been reduced since they passed the 500 hour mark and the next wave of job-buyers were given 'their' flying. Two were in debt up to their eyeballs and are unsure if they can make their repayments on their reduced income.
I'm resigned to the fact that there are some selfish people in this world who will do whatever it takes to get what they want and to hell with how it affects others. It now seems that, rightly some may say, it will affect them first.