airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
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At risk of starting another really long reply, which I don't really want to do...My view has never been that the old-school route CAN'T be done any more, it's more "whether it's viable to do so" or not. For me, I believe the only people it is viable for now are those that can pay their initial training costs without taking any debt, who are also prepared to lead no kind of life for several years until they finally get to a decent wedge. This rules out anyone that needs to service debt, anyone that wants to have a reasonably nice accomodation, anyone who wants a reasonable car, anyone who wants holidays or nights out with mates, anyone that has a family etc....so with so many ruled out, why are we complaining about the lack of people prepared to do it that way? That route is dead or dying, because as training costs rise, the rewards of doing it "the hard way" become ever more unworthy, in comparison to paying to get into Ryanair and having £40k+ within two years.
two final points - 1 - I Never said it was impossible to do training whilst working, clearly that's possible and a very practical solution to funding training....but how you fund training is not the point, the point is that it will still costs you a min of around £50k, whether you have that in the bank, whether you earn while you learn, or whether you borrow the whole blinkin lot! It's THAT £50k you have to get a return on.
2 - The sparkys salary - I would agree...I think the website have it wrong...I even said as much, but I'm only reporting what's ....errr....reported! TBH, even if you double it, it still isn't much cop and I doubt you'd be affording more than about 3 hours a month....so fairly moot anyway - the point is you're still looking at more than 4 years just to get to being able to train for a CPL... (link here: channel4.com - Bricking It- Job Profiles - Electrician)
two final points - 1 - I Never said it was impossible to do training whilst working, clearly that's possible and a very practical solution to funding training....but how you fund training is not the point, the point is that it will still costs you a min of around £50k, whether you have that in the bank, whether you earn while you learn, or whether you borrow the whole blinkin lot! It's THAT £50k you have to get a return on.
2 - The sparkys salary - I would agree...I think the website have it wrong...I even said as much, but I'm only reporting what's ....errr....reported! TBH, even if you double it, it still isn't much cop and I doubt you'd be affording more than about 3 hours a month....so fairly moot anyway - the point is you're still looking at more than 4 years just to get to being able to train for a CPL... (link here: channel4.com - Bricking It- Job Profiles - Electrician)
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today someone told me:
"disgusting!!, with all the money, you , pilots paid, you have to prostitute yourself"
I replied "no, it s worst, prostitutes are paid"
guys, we are under**** cuz we accept it!!! (nous sommes tous des sous-merde)
"disgusting!!, with all the money, you , pilots paid, you have to prostitute yourself"
I replied "no, it s worst, prostitutes are paid"
guys, we are under**** cuz we accept it!!! (nous sommes tous des sous-merde)
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Actually Dartagnan, you made a couple of very good points.
Eventually this whole thing will bottom out, at which point it'll become too unattractive for anyone to bite, except for those so deluded that they're unable to pass the initial medical.
Eventually this whole thing will bottom out, at which point it'll become too unattractive for anyone to bite, except for those so deluded that they're unable to pass the initial medical.
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Am I missing something?
This inst a desk job, this isn't pulling someones prolapsed colon out and stitching it back up, this is being a Commercial Pilot. This is a great job (albeit being slowly choked by the management) but never the less it may seem crap that you're paying for your TR and first 150 hours but even those paying for the flying are in a very privileged position compared to the hundreds that have not managed to get anything. I know of 300 people gone through my FTO in the past 12 months, only 69 had guarantee'd jobs on starting the others were completely self sponsored, so they have already paid for the profession.
From the comments on the board previously I'm going to assume that there are a lot of wannabe's shouting their mouths off. That's fine, but until you have the balls to man up and fork out the cash to pay for your ATPL and possibly TR and then on top of that, have the determination and ability and dare I say it skill (and whoever that monkey was earlier saying that you dont need skill and anyone with enough money can do it, well quite frankly I find it offensive that you are stealing my oxygen, get off microsoft flight sim and get a woman, then a job then I'll talk to you) to compete the course then you do not have any idea what you are talking about.
Peopple pay for the TR and 150 hours as they want to get a foot in the door. The money they will earn in the next 6-7 years will be more than enough to clear their debt and they will be paying it off whilst having a fantastic time in a very respected and most importantly rewarding job.
I welcome any abuse, as all I'll say is, "sorry, what aircraft are you current on?" and unless it is pressurised then I'm not going to take you seriously.
This inst a desk job, this isn't pulling someones prolapsed colon out and stitching it back up, this is being a Commercial Pilot. This is a great job (albeit being slowly choked by the management) but never the less it may seem crap that you're paying for your TR and first 150 hours but even those paying for the flying are in a very privileged position compared to the hundreds that have not managed to get anything. I know of 300 people gone through my FTO in the past 12 months, only 69 had guarantee'd jobs on starting the others were completely self sponsored, so they have already paid for the profession.
From the comments on the board previously I'm going to assume that there are a lot of wannabe's shouting their mouths off. That's fine, but until you have the balls to man up and fork out the cash to pay for your ATPL and possibly TR and then on top of that, have the determination and ability and dare I say it skill (and whoever that monkey was earlier saying that you dont need skill and anyone with enough money can do it, well quite frankly I find it offensive that you are stealing my oxygen, get off microsoft flight sim and get a woman, then a job then I'll talk to you) to compete the course then you do not have any idea what you are talking about.
Peopple pay for the TR and 150 hours as they want to get a foot in the door. The money they will earn in the next 6-7 years will be more than enough to clear their debt and they will be paying it off whilst having a fantastic time in a very respected and most importantly rewarding job.
I welcome any abuse, as all I'll say is, "sorry, what aircraft are you current on?" and unless it is pressurised then I'm not going to take you seriously.
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Clanger
I think you have made a clanger over your cost/prices appraisal:
This business has always been dificult to get into and the first problem for all is raising the funding to get going.
I have been flying since 1983 and I can tell you it was damn expensive then too. I begged stole and borrowed, sold everything I had and started my PPL. 1/2 way though I ran out of money and had to beg the bank to let me finish!
I then spent 3 years "Hangar Ratting." Cleaning aircraft, fueling,some maintanance even but got to know the industry and earned virtually nothing.
The next few years were spent doing anything I could to pay for flying. I've done all of Flinty's jobs and a few a wouldn't care to mention all in the name of flying. I had no home of my own and lived off beer and sandwiches from the pub I was working in!
The cost of a licence at Oxford or Perth, (the only fulltime way) was £45k then. So don't give me all this "it was so much cheaper" nonsense.
And consider what we were all earning then? A fraction of todays wages! In those days the only way to get a bank loan was to have a 30% deposit, show consideral disposable income and convice the bank manager you didn't need his money!
Somehow, though sheer persistance I guess I got there but it took me a long time. In my professional capacity I have flown single cessnas and twins, turboprops and light jets. All for next to nothing. I can honestly say that I only started earning reasonable money 4 years ago. I never actually paid for a type rating and never will. (not directly anyway). I have though, spent an awful lot of money and made enormous sacrifices to be part of this game.
I never saw it as licence to 737 to command in 3 years.
So please stop wailing that you find it hard to find 50k and then life is a bitch cos your only option is to pay another 20k for your jet rating.
Life is a bitch for all of us in this chosen career. It always has been and always will. But how about getting your head around the possiblity of using that flying licence to fly rather than just another ryanair or easy sheep?
I think you have made a clanger over your cost/prices appraisal:
This business has always been dificult to get into and the first problem for all is raising the funding to get going.
I have been flying since 1983 and I can tell you it was damn expensive then too. I begged stole and borrowed, sold everything I had and started my PPL. 1/2 way though I ran out of money and had to beg the bank to let me finish!
I then spent 3 years "Hangar Ratting." Cleaning aircraft, fueling,some maintanance even but got to know the industry and earned virtually nothing.
The next few years were spent doing anything I could to pay for flying. I've done all of Flinty's jobs and a few a wouldn't care to mention all in the name of flying. I had no home of my own and lived off beer and sandwiches from the pub I was working in!
The cost of a licence at Oxford or Perth, (the only fulltime way) was £45k then. So don't give me all this "it was so much cheaper" nonsense.
And consider what we were all earning then? A fraction of todays wages! In those days the only way to get a bank loan was to have a 30% deposit, show consideral disposable income and convice the bank manager you didn't need his money!
Somehow, though sheer persistance I guess I got there but it took me a long time. In my professional capacity I have flown single cessnas and twins, turboprops and light jets. All for next to nothing. I can honestly say that I only started earning reasonable money 4 years ago. I never actually paid for a type rating and never will. (not directly anyway). I have though, spent an awful lot of money and made enormous sacrifices to be part of this game.
I never saw it as licence to 737 to command in 3 years.
So please stop wailing that you find it hard to find 50k and then life is a bitch cos your only option is to pay another 20k for your jet rating.
Life is a bitch for all of us in this chosen career. It always has been and always will. But how about getting your head around the possiblity of using that flying licence to fly rather than just another ryanair or easy sheep?
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Guys, life is not fair. There is always someone with a better looking girl, someone winning the lottery, someone that has better skills or even more money than you. It's just life.
Even back in the ussr life wasn't fair. Stop bitching and accept the facts.
In the end it's all about luck. Maybe in your next life you'll be born with ****loads of money. Or you start right now by working your butt off and creating your own luck.
There is/has and always will be tough competition in this business, just make sure you stay on top
Even back in the ussr life wasn't fair. Stop bitching and accept the facts.
In the end it's all about luck. Maybe in your next life you'll be born with ****loads of money. Or you start right now by working your butt off and creating your own luck.
There is/has and always will be tough competition in this business, just make sure you stay on top
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To all those who 'dream' of the 'dream' job.
It is a good job. The glamour, however wears off after a short while and the reality of the constant scheduling, long days and difficult approaches in bad weather kick in.
Whilst everyone on the outside looking in sees the shiny bits, it's not until you do this job day in, day out that you see the work involved. Still, taking all that into account it is still a good job.
However, those that join now to live the dream will, in 10-20 years be the Captains lamenting the drop in conditions. It was a fantastic job when I started, flying hours per month were far lower, substantive pay was far higher, the respect afforded pilots was there however, sadly, it has eroded year upon year. That was in the days where NO-ONE paid for their Type Ratings and still the animosity between management/accountants and the 'expensive' pilots grew. Now we have wannabees beating the door down to the training department with fists full of cash begging to be allowed to fly the big shiny jet on the apron. Not content with that they are then shoving money under the noses of the accountants to sit in the RHS for 100 line training.
So, please tell me where this will take our profession in the future? Simply downward. Eventually the job will become so poorly paid, for what is at the end of the day a job with many anti-social hours and requirements, that the source of well heeled wannabees dries up. By then we will all have an almighty uphill struggle to return to where we are today let alone where we want to be.
What happens now to those who 'dream' with big piles of cash or debt will have an almighty impact on those in the industry over the next 10-20 years. Don't forget that people like O'Leary are the millionaires by exploiting you, there are very very few (if any) millionaires who have made their money purely from professional flying.
I am not having a go at those wannabees who think they can get their nose ahead by buying a TR and line training. It is human nature to try and get an advantage. The organisations that promot this scheme are the real villains. Lets be honest here, which system do we think benefits our profession the most? The system of selection based upon ability, character and compatibility or the system based upon who has the most money to complete the expensive course?
You decide.
It is a good job. The glamour, however wears off after a short while and the reality of the constant scheduling, long days and difficult approaches in bad weather kick in.
Whilst everyone on the outside looking in sees the shiny bits, it's not until you do this job day in, day out that you see the work involved. Still, taking all that into account it is still a good job.
However, those that join now to live the dream will, in 10-20 years be the Captains lamenting the drop in conditions. It was a fantastic job when I started, flying hours per month were far lower, substantive pay was far higher, the respect afforded pilots was there however, sadly, it has eroded year upon year. That was in the days where NO-ONE paid for their Type Ratings and still the animosity between management/accountants and the 'expensive' pilots grew. Now we have wannabees beating the door down to the training department with fists full of cash begging to be allowed to fly the big shiny jet on the apron. Not content with that they are then shoving money under the noses of the accountants to sit in the RHS for 100 line training.
So, please tell me where this will take our profession in the future? Simply downward. Eventually the job will become so poorly paid, for what is at the end of the day a job with many anti-social hours and requirements, that the source of well heeled wannabees dries up. By then we will all have an almighty uphill struggle to return to where we are today let alone where we want to be.
What happens now to those who 'dream' with big piles of cash or debt will have an almighty impact on those in the industry over the next 10-20 years. Don't forget that people like O'Leary are the millionaires by exploiting you, there are very very few (if any) millionaires who have made their money purely from professional flying.
I am not having a go at those wannabees who think they can get their nose ahead by buying a TR and line training. It is human nature to try and get an advantage. The organisations that promot this scheme are the real villains. Lets be honest here, which system do we think benefits our profession the most? The system of selection based upon ability, character and compatibility or the system based upon who has the most money to complete the expensive course?
You decide.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 19th May 2009 at 09:04.
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Not sure if that comment was aimed at me?
Quote "i am not a pilot and your talking bull ****..glad your not flying aircraft fool.... "
If it was then just read my profile.
I'm just fed up of people complaining and whinging. I don't like the situation more than anyone else but people will do what they have to do get a foot into the door.
Between you and me , BALPA aren't particularly happy with this situation and there are already shifts in the company I'm working for to change this.
Quote "i am not a pilot and your talking bull ****..glad your not flying aircraft fool.... "
If it was then just read my profile.
I'm just fed up of people complaining and whinging. I don't like the situation more than anyone else but people will do what they have to do get a foot into the door.
Between you and me
, BALPA aren't particularly happy with this situation and there are already shifts in the company I'm working for to change this.
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So, couple of points - Kelly, fully agree my figures may well be incorrect - however, they are based on a number of things....firstly, I started looking at Professional training in 2006. The costs (of the courses I looked at - not necessarily representative admittedly) have gone up between then and now by 14%. I find it unlikely that these have been the only price hikes since 1991. If that was mirrored consistently, then the course price in 91 would have been C £28k. Alright, hardly scientific, but...
Secondly, I noted a post many moons ago by WWW, where he stated the course costs in y2k as C.£45k. For all the faults, I do tend to think that WWW knows his onions on aviation topics.
Incidentally, if we extrapolate the 14% growth in costs over three years figure, then year 2000 costs would be (by my, highly unscientific method) ....£45k. Hmm..
The £50k I mention is only my stab in the dark at what the AVERAGE cost of an fATPL is....FTE is nearly £100k now with the fx rates against them, OAA is >£70k
But, ok...I accept I may have been a little over enthusiastic in my estimation of costs.
However, the flaw I find is that you're still expecting people to do it the way YOU did it. But the world has changed and the rules that once applied, are no longer applicable. It is still possible to do it that way, but the fact is, that you're paying for your morals [which, btw, I don't think is right] if you refuse any job with a bought TR or a reduced salary. And that's not fair to your family - for me, I don't feel I have the right to ask my wife to support me whilst I earn £15k a year for three years, when shes supported MY dream this far anyway. I think you could make a good case to say that you're paying for the type rating anyway, for someone that FIs until someone offers it to them for free....you're paying for it in lost income. I fully agree that by going this route, you're not worsening Ts&Cs longer term, but you're still paying
For my money, it's academic anyway, one, two, ten even a hundred people refusing to pay won't stop the pay to fly phenomena. What we need is companies to stop it, we need people like P-Ts company to push Balpa to control it. I know, I KNOW the replies will say "but if all newbies refused to pay..." which is true...this would kill it stone dead. But so would all TRIs refusing to train anyone that's paid for that seat....and I know which one should be easier to make happen...
one is like herding cats, the other is showing people the direct effect they're having on their own Ts & Cs.
Secondly, I noted a post many moons ago by WWW, where he stated the course costs in y2k as C.£45k. For all the faults, I do tend to think that WWW knows his onions on aviation topics.
Incidentally, if we extrapolate the 14% growth in costs over three years figure, then year 2000 costs would be (by my, highly unscientific method) ....£45k. Hmm..
The £50k I mention is only my stab in the dark at what the AVERAGE cost of an fATPL is....FTE is nearly £100k now with the fx rates against them, OAA is >£70k
But, ok...I accept I may have been a little over enthusiastic in my estimation of costs.
However, the flaw I find is that you're still expecting people to do it the way YOU did it. But the world has changed and the rules that once applied, are no longer applicable. It is still possible to do it that way, but the fact is, that you're paying for your morals [which, btw, I don't think is right] if you refuse any job with a bought TR or a reduced salary. And that's not fair to your family - for me, I don't feel I have the right to ask my wife to support me whilst I earn £15k a year for three years, when shes supported MY dream this far anyway. I think you could make a good case to say that you're paying for the type rating anyway, for someone that FIs until someone offers it to them for free....you're paying for it in lost income. I fully agree that by going this route, you're not worsening Ts&Cs longer term, but you're still paying
For my money, it's academic anyway, one, two, ten even a hundred people refusing to pay won't stop the pay to fly phenomena. What we need is companies to stop it, we need people like P-Ts company to push Balpa to control it. I know, I KNOW the replies will say "but if all newbies refused to pay..." which is true...this would kill it stone dead. But so would all TRIs refusing to train anyone that's paid for that seat....and I know which one should be easier to make happen...
one is like herding cats, the other is showing people the direct effect they're having on their own Ts & Cs.
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Well I still have the brochure from Perth in the eighty's and it sure says 45k to me!
Before you started flying didn't anyone say to you "if you are looking to make decent money go do something else?" Cos I heard it a thousand times!
It seems from your last few comments that it is airline money that is driving you? Don't you want to experience aspects of aviation that airline flying will never give you? Believe me, I have done it and it is dull dull dull! And besides, it still doesn't pay well either.
The analagy I just have is a golfer on hole one desperate to get to the 19th now. Why not enjoy all 18 holes and then retire to the 19th?
You can choose to do it anyway you wish and I wish you well with it but direct entry airline with paid TR on a new licence is one quick way to erode yours and everyones elses T's & C's, miss out on the enjoyment of flying and find yourself bored stupid before you know it!
Before you started flying didn't anyone say to you "if you are looking to make decent money go do something else?" Cos I heard it a thousand times!
It seems from your last few comments that it is airline money that is driving you? Don't you want to experience aspects of aviation that airline flying will never give you? Believe me, I have done it and it is dull dull dull! And besides, it still doesn't pay well either.
The analagy I just have is a golfer on hole one desperate to get to the 19th now. Why not enjoy all 18 holes and then retire to the 19th?
You can choose to do it anyway you wish and I wish you well with it but direct entry airline with paid TR on a new licence is one quick way to erode yours and everyones elses T's & C's, miss out on the enjoyment of flying and find yourself bored stupid before you know it!
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Kelly Hopper,
I'm not sure Clanger is in it for the money if I'm honest. Knowing how much he took home prior to his ATPL and comparing that to what I'm taking home now I think he'd be better off not doing the ATPL and I'm sure he appreciates this as well. But its not just the money that drives us/him. Surely the job itslef of flying an airliner is quite a rewarding one. Granted those longer in the tooth get bored but for those in the position of paying for the TR or looking for jobs, this clearly isnt the case for the people on this forum, as they are at the begining of the course.
Also not sure how much money you want to take home every year, but I'd be more than happy with the salary of the last captain I flew with. He took home over 100k after tax last year. Now I come from a working class background but I think that is more than enough to keep me happy. I always will strive to earn more than my age (equivalent in thousands of pounds), that's what I base my success career wise upon. Other than being a Doctor, Dentist or Barrister/Solicitor there is not many professional careers you can take this kind of money home. Of course you could go off and be a merchant Banker or City Trader, but I don't want to die of stress at 40.
The airline Industry is one fo the most rewarding out there (Certainly Flight Deck) and people keep forgetting that they once started at the bottom of the Ivory tower and weren't always at the top looking down at all of us "Ab-Initio's" with such bemusement.
The Grass is always Greener and I am aware of this. But would you ratehr not be in the airline industry and be sitting behind a desk 9-5??? I always compare what I do to a desk job; in that way, climbing out of a 757 will never be a bad day.
I'm not sure Clanger is in it for the money if I'm honest. Knowing how much he took home prior to his ATPL and comparing that to what I'm taking home now I think he'd be better off not doing the ATPL and I'm sure he appreciates this as well. But its not just the money that drives us/him. Surely the job itslef of flying an airliner is quite a rewarding one. Granted those longer in the tooth get bored but for those in the position of paying for the TR or looking for jobs, this clearly isnt the case for the people on this forum, as they are at the begining of the course.
Also not sure how much money you want to take home every year, but I'd be more than happy with the salary of the last captain I flew with. He took home over 100k after tax last year. Now I come from a working class background but I think that is more than enough to keep me happy. I always will strive to earn more than my age (equivalent in thousands of pounds), that's what I base my success career wise upon. Other than being a Doctor, Dentist or Barrister/Solicitor there is not many professional careers you can take this kind of money home. Of course you could go off and be a merchant Banker or City Trader, but I don't want to die of stress at 40.
The airline Industry is one fo the most rewarding out there (Certainly Flight Deck) and people keep forgetting that they once started at the bottom of the Ivory tower and weren't always at the top looking down at all of us "Ab-Initio's" with such bemusement.
The Grass is always Greener and I am aware of this. But would you ratehr not be in the airline industry and be sitting behind a desk 9-5??? I always compare what I do to a desk job; in that way, climbing out of a 757 will never be a bad day.
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Ok, I think you're confusing one thing....I knew very well what to expect when trying to get into this career and I went into it eyes wide open. Further, I'd love, I'd absolutely love the challenge of flying day to day into new airfields, flying NPAs, short, icy, fields in Scandawegia and so on. I have no desire to fly long haul, as I prefer the bits at either end, than the monitoring, button pushing bit in the middle....
But the bit you're missing however, is that I'M not talking about ME. I'm talking generally. You can view all my posts on this forum and indeed OAAs and you'll find that my message broadly has consistently been one to "slow down, limit your debt and enjoy it"....so on that I think we agree.
However, whilst perhaps commercial aviaition, even in the airlines, doesn't offer perhaps stockbroker levels of income, it does still offer a nice enough living. FWIW, my current job earns me a nice living, but it doesn't make my heart jump either....THAT is why I trained for a career change (perhaps my timing could use some work, but hey!)
What I'm TRYING to get through, is that your perspective is that people should take an FI job on £15k and then work their way up. That's fair enough. It's a very honourable route and I dare say one would learn skills that would ellude the career airline pilot. I also dare say you'd have some bloody good fun....but if you've just spent £70k at OAA, you'll also be bankrupt. You'll not have any kind of life .... and as you say, it's JUST. NOT. WORTH. that....which is why people are drawn to the route of paying for the type rating, which provides a job allowing the loans to be repaid etc.
I'm honestly not trying to be contentious...for me personally, I COULD go the FI route, but it's not really what I want to do - the money is only one part of it, although admittedly a big part....for me the ideal would be to have enough bunce of my own to fly around something like my own 800XPC, or better a gulf 5 and to be flying it purely for the fun of it. I KNOW that airline flying will be "just a job" within 5 years in all probability, but I also know that I've done fifteen years flying a desk and even on the worst days of tedium, I can look back at this and know I've made the right move. However, fun though flying is, there are also other things that are important to me, that require a decent living to be made. Things like my family, my house, holidays and so on. I don't WANT to live on the breadline for the sake of a tiny patch of quickly eroding moral high ground.
You think of my perspective like a game of golf, good analogy.
My wife is very pregnant....a little clanger is now something over 8 days late....so we've been talking about pain relief (or lack of) a lot....your view is reminiscent to me of THAT conversation....."there are no prizes for getting there MORE painfully".
And that's the problem....you seem to have a very black and white view on this and it just ISN'T that simple. Effectively chastising yourself by taking the hard route, won't stop this happening...it's just screwing yourself over.
think about what you're saying, I'll even add the subtext for you...."You newbies should take an FI job [IF you can find one, because it's the only job other than airline FO you can get with 200 hours, pay another £7k on top of what you've already spent] and earn £15 - £20k pa, rather than paying the extra £20k and getting a job that pays about £20k pa more."
You may not like it, but the option is there and it's significantly more appealing, even if the job won't be as satisfying. Personally, I don't think it's right, but it isn't going to change any time soon, because every one looks out for themselves in this industry...and whilst that's not right I don't blame anyone else for looking after their own best interests, if everyone else is only looking out for THEIR best interests.
But the bit you're missing however, is that I'M not talking about ME. I'm talking generally. You can view all my posts on this forum and indeed OAAs and you'll find that my message broadly has consistently been one to "slow down, limit your debt and enjoy it"....so on that I think we agree.
However, whilst perhaps commercial aviaition, even in the airlines, doesn't offer perhaps stockbroker levels of income, it does still offer a nice enough living. FWIW, my current job earns me a nice living, but it doesn't make my heart jump either....THAT is why I trained for a career change (perhaps my timing could use some work, but hey!)
What I'm TRYING to get through, is that your perspective is that people should take an FI job on £15k and then work their way up. That's fair enough. It's a very honourable route and I dare say one would learn skills that would ellude the career airline pilot. I also dare say you'd have some bloody good fun....but if you've just spent £70k at OAA, you'll also be bankrupt. You'll not have any kind of life .... and as you say, it's JUST. NOT. WORTH. that....which is why people are drawn to the route of paying for the type rating, which provides a job allowing the loans to be repaid etc.
I'm honestly not trying to be contentious...for me personally, I COULD go the FI route, but it's not really what I want to do - the money is only one part of it, although admittedly a big part....for me the ideal would be to have enough bunce of my own to fly around something like my own 800XPC, or better a gulf 5 and to be flying it purely for the fun of it. I KNOW that airline flying will be "just a job" within 5 years in all probability, but I also know that I've done fifteen years flying a desk and even on the worst days of tedium, I can look back at this and know I've made the right move. However, fun though flying is, there are also other things that are important to me, that require a decent living to be made. Things like my family, my house, holidays and so on. I don't WANT to live on the breadline for the sake of a tiny patch of quickly eroding moral high ground.
You think of my perspective like a game of golf, good analogy.
My wife is very pregnant....a little clanger is now something over 8 days late....so we've been talking about pain relief (or lack of) a lot....your view is reminiscent to me of THAT conversation....."there are no prizes for getting there MORE painfully".
And that's the problem....you seem to have a very black and white view on this and it just ISN'T that simple. Effectively chastising yourself by taking the hard route, won't stop this happening...it's just screwing yourself over.
think about what you're saying, I'll even add the subtext for you...."You newbies should take an FI job [IF you can find one, because it's the only job other than airline FO you can get with 200 hours, pay another £7k on top of what you've already spent] and earn £15 - £20k pa, rather than paying the extra £20k and getting a job that pays about £20k pa more."
You may not like it, but the option is there and it's significantly more appealing, even if the job won't be as satisfying. Personally, I don't think it's right, but it isn't going to change any time soon, because every one looks out for themselves in this industry...and whilst that's not right I don't blame anyone else for looking after their own best interests, if everyone else is only looking out for THEIR best interests.
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for me the ideal would be to have enough bunce of my own to fly around something like my own 800XPC, or better a gulf 5 and to be flying it purely for the fun of it.
Precisely because it's seen as an extention to a hobby is why we all see continuous degregation of our T's & C's.
And BTW I never suggested being a FI. I didn't instruct. I worked in GA flying real aeroplanes and for what it's worth you can earn 2/3 of what a new entry BA F/O earns without having to pay for a rating! So economically, professionally and given the current circumstances it actually makes much more sense.
Jeez!
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The other point is that you have to question the judgement of those who dive in head first in to training, pinning their hopes on walking straight into a jet 18 months later.
So what if you have a family to support? People should maybe factor these very things in to the equation before embarking on their odyssey. I never expected to go with the bare minimums into commercial aviation straight away, even though as a PPL I had more than twice the hours of your average grad when I first considered a career. People who think that they should get straight to where I am with their paltry hours and experience get my back up.
Go out and do some real flying first, cut your teeth somewhere instead of moaning about how much harder it is is now than before. I'll tell you what, those who do sit there waiting will be sitting there for ever.
I used to earn shed loads as a spark aswell.
So what if you have a family to support? People should maybe factor these very things in to the equation before embarking on their odyssey. I never expected to go with the bare minimums into commercial aviation straight away, even though as a PPL I had more than twice the hours of your average grad when I first considered a career. People who think that they should get straight to where I am with their paltry hours and experience get my back up.
Go out and do some real flying first, cut your teeth somewhere instead of moaning about how much harder it is is now than before. I'll tell you what, those who do sit there waiting will be sitting there for ever.
I used to earn shed loads as a spark aswell.
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I think it has always been hard.
Let's see what the future will be, and let's see if banks are still willing to give the money to wannabes who dream to fly a jet after 24 months! I doubt!
Let's see what the future will be, and let's see if banks are still willing to give the money to wannabes who dream to fly a jet after 24 months! I doubt!
I knew all would go downhill as soon as they abolished the self-improver route (sigh, fond memories).
What with the new 150hr integrated courses + TR + Line Time all in one package... its enough to make you turn in your grave, from 0 to line... guaranteed.... just give us your (big) bucks. Failed Sim? No Probs... After all "He who pays the piper calls the tune!". A recent case highlighted that issue only too succinctly.
And the profession has only itself to blame. Lets face it, unity isn't a strong point, back stabbing certainly is. It's a dog eat dog world.. money speaks... Eagle Jet is just the tip of an iceberg with a very slippery slope.
What with the new 150hr integrated courses + TR + Line Time all in one package... its enough to make you turn in your grave, from 0 to line... guaranteed.... just give us your (big) bucks. Failed Sim? No Probs... After all "He who pays the piper calls the tune!". A recent case highlighted that issue only too succinctly.
And the profession has only itself to blame. Lets face it, unity isn't a strong point, back stabbing certainly is. It's a dog eat dog world.. money speaks... Eagle Jet is just the tip of an iceberg with a very slippery slope.
Last edited by flash8; 23rd May 2009 at 19:21.
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one day, there will be a crash, and they will discover that copilots paid for line training and hours...like a flight club!
when this day arrive, it s just a question of time, I will call the newspapers and TV.
when this day arrive, it s just a question of time, I will call the newspapers and TV.
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Pay for flight school, pay for type rating, pay for libe training where does it stop? What bemused me is where some of you, are against pay or type or pay for line training, and equals that to incompetence? But you see yourself as competence just because you had to work odd jobs to finance you CPL. The reason you had to work to finance your flight school was because your parents didnt have the cash to sponsor. Now you also PAID for your CPL!! What difference it makes to another pilot paying for TR? Just because you couldnt afford it pls do not equate to competence. If you were as competent way back, you wouldnt have even paid for flight school. Would have been a fully sponsored cadet.